Ferguson: Moving on..why none of this will mater...

[AgnosticBoy]

Spreadsheets | Fatal Encounters
(Did I get that link from you? I think so! Posting it again in the hope that the noisy boys will take a look this time and actually address it.)

Look at the top chart on that site you linked to. There's a column that says "official disposition" if you move to the right. An unlawful shooting, which the author classified as "criminal", is rarely used. The number of " justified" killings far outnumber the rare "criminal" shootings. So your source is better evidence for the side that doesn't see unjustified police killings as a problem. But as you admitted, your source is not objective and he has not been able to get much information from official sources. As the author of the site says,
"...shows fatal encounters I scraped from the web".

 

[lewisnotmiller]

You and others have claimed that there's a "problem" in Ferguson. What is the problem if the cop was justified?

The police response to the riots/protests was interesting to say the least. Police armed with assault rifles and dressed in camo? That's not a policing exercise, it's a military exercise. But rather than using military personnel for it, police officers with limited training in the use of the weapons they were carrying were used.

Provision of military grade weapons to the police only helps confuse their role in society. Are they there to protect citizens rights, and defend laws? Or are they there to establish and maintain control?

Do you think provision of military vehicles to semi-rural police forces is justified (for example)?
Do you think police moving in to Ferguson should have done so wearing camo, and brandishing military assaults rifles (ie. rifles up, not lowered)?

Or is the problem the non-critically thinking protestors and race baitors?

There can be multiple problems. Any time there are protests on a scale like these, there will be those who seek to take advantage. We shouldn't let that cloud issues any more than we should let it drive agendas.

 

[Alceste]

Look at the top chart on that site you linked to. There's a column that says "official disposition" if you move to the right. An unlawful shooting, which the author classified as "criminal", is rarely used. The number of " justified" killings far outnumber the rare "criminal" shootings. So your source is better evidence for the side that doesn't see unjustified police killings as a problem. But as you admitted, your source is not objective and he has not been able to get much information from official sources. As the author of the site says,
"...shows fatal encounters I scraped from the web".

Police rubber stamp virtually all of their killings as justifiable. That doesn't mean they were actually justifiable. It just means the police think so.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

The police response to the riots/protests was interesting to say the least. Police armed with assault rifles and dressed in camo? That's not a policing exercise, it's a military exercise. But rather than using military personnel for it, police officers with limited training in the use of the weapons they were carrying were used.

Provision of military grade weapons to the police only helps confuse their role in society. Are they there to protect citizens rights, and defend laws? Or are they there to establish and maintain control?

Do you think provision of military vehicles to semi-rural police forces is justified (for example)?
Do you think police moving in to Ferguson should have done so wearing camo, and brandishing military assaults rifles (ie. rifles up, not lowered)?

I wasn't speaking to those issues but yes, some see what you mention as a problem. People are protesting the death of Mike Brown and that was what I was referring to. And in my view, no reasonable conclusion can be drawn, yet.

There can be multiple problems. Any time there are protests on a scale like these, there will be those who seek to take advantage. We shouldn't let that cloud issues any more than we should let it drive agendas.

True but this thread is about the treatment of Mike Brown (the suspect or victim) and not the militarization of the police. That's what I will mainly focus on.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

True but this thread is about the treatment of Mike Brown (the suspect or victim) and not the militarization of the police. That's what I will mainly focus on.

You don't think the militarization of the police force to such a massive degree speaks to the type of culture being systemically promoted?
I see that (rather than anything about Brown himself) as being the key thing to come out of Ferguson, and the key reason why this SHOULD matter.

But it's obviously your call what you respond to.

 

[Alceste]

You don't think the militarization of the police force to such a massive degree speaks to the type of culture being systemically promoted?
I see that (rather than anything about Brown himself) as being the key thing to come out of Ferguson, and the key reason why this SHOULD matter.

But it's obviously your call what you respond to.

I think it's a pretty big problem. Not just the militarization, but the lack of accountability. Someone needs to police the police. Otherwise, as the old badger suggested earlier, the police can actually wind up CAUSING exactly the kind of social chaos they are supposed to be defending us against. Look how quickly an encounter between Brown and Wilson for jaywalking escalated into protests, rioting, looting, a curfew (!!!) for the whole town, police raids, full riot gear, tear gas, rubber bullets...

The protests didn't come out of the blue. There is obviously a very large difference of opinion between the police and the public in Ferguson as to when the use of lethal force is justifiable, and this incident was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

In retrospect, I am sure the Ferguson police wish that Wilson had handled this particular incident of jaywalking differently, but they will nevertheless rubber stamp it justifiable because they always do, and then there will be more riots next time it happens - unless the police change their trajectory.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

The protests didn't come out of the blue. There is obviously a very large difference of opinion between the police and the public in Ferguson as to when the use of lethal force is justifiable, and this incident was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

There is a difference between what many Fergueson residents and police see as lethal force but what counts is the law and not public opinion. That doesn't automatically mean its the police that don't know the laws because it could be the citizens that don't get it. It could be a problem of violence in the community. Either way id like to see evidence that there's a lethal force problem in Furgueson, starting with the number of police shooting deaths and the reason behind those shootings.

In retrospect, I am sure the Ferguson police wish that Wilson had handled this particular incident of jaywalking differently, but they will nevertheless rubber stamp it justifiable because they always do, and then there will be more riots next time it happens - unless the police change their trajectory.

More unsupported claims from you. And its impossible that it may actually be a justified shooting, right? The police are always wrong if we go by your biased reasoning.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

More unsupported claims from you. And its impossible that it may actually be a justified shooting g, right? The police are always wrong if we go by your biased reasoning.

Hey bud...you attributed the quote to the wrong person. No biggie, accidents happen. Can you fix it, though?
Cheers.

 

[Poeticus]

Hey bud...you attributed the quote to the wrong person. No biggie, accidents happen. Can you fix it, though?
Cheers.

Hey mod ... you should change "mater" to "matter". Not saying you spelled it wrong since it isn't your thread. Can you fix it, though---the title ?

 

[xkatz]

Hey mod ... you should change "mater" to "matter". Not saying you spelled it wrong since it isn't your thread. Can you fix it, though---the title ?

You don't like Mater?

For shame, Poeticus.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think it's a pretty big problem. Not just the militarization, but the lack of accountability. Someone needs to police the police. Otherwise, as the old badger suggested earlier, the police can actually wind up CAUSING exactly the kind of social chaos they are supposed to be defending us against. Look how quickly an encounter between Brown and Wilson for jaywalking escalated into protests, rioting, looting, a curfew (!!!) for the whole town, police raids, full riot gear, tear gas, rubber bullets...

The protests didn't come out of the blue. There is obviously a very large difference of opinion between the police and the public in Ferguson as to when the use of lethal force is justifiable, and this incident was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

In retrospect, I am sure the Ferguson police wish that Wilson had handled this particular incident of jaywalking differently, but they will nevertheless rubber stamp it justifiable because they always do, and then there will be more riots next time it happens - unless the police change their trajectory.

Full agreement here. Additionally, Im all for cameras on cops themselves as well as the cruisers. It's a win win for both the police against unfair accusations but the public as well in how each situation is handled and the amount of force used appropriately as well as protection of individual rights both again, of the officer and civilian.

Inevitably however nothing will be done I fear, some politician will maintain a status quo, and letting history repeat itself over and over. Nothing has really changed from 1964 to present. (aka New York riots and later Rochester riots involving the same type of situation as Ferguson. ) Just token measures will be implemented that stem the problem for a number of years until things simply erupt again.

Personally I think the police will now be more militarized than ever. Watch the bill for demilitarization be tabled indefinitely. Civilians are just too dangerous now.

I really hope my pessimism is wrong but....... No politician as history already has proven so far will ever lift any real fingers to address the systemic causes that plague this nation domestically, and proactively move to change the things that give rise to incidents as in Ferguson. . Imo there is simply no real intention to do so nor do they care about peoples feelings in the matter. It's just not that important an issue on their table and easily snuffed aside after token measures taken.

Life goes on.

Prepare for the next riot in about a decade or so.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Not sure if that is even credible. only 1 page opens for me

On the 22nd they were stating it had not been released nor could it due to ongoing investigation.

It would not surprise me if fakes were out

I have read stories about it from yahoo news and from huffpo. But I went straight to the source.

There are two pages to the incident report.

I'm open to the possibility that fakes are out. Do you have a source to share?

 

[outhouse]

I have read stories about it from yahoo news and from huffpo. But I went straight to the source.

There are two pages to the incident report.

I'm open to the possibility that fakes are out. Do you have a source to share?

I think its the same things you have been looking at.

Maybe it is. Don't think it will matter much even if it is.

 

[s2a]

Hi again........

I get all the above.
But countries can never do enough to vet and select operatives such as Police Officers.
I know a bit about this because I used to train CVIT, security, store detective and door supervisors, and over the years a percentage overacted and thus used unreasonable force or made serious mistakes during high conflict incidents. The problem was (is) that when a person becomes excited, frightened or put under severe stress that they 'fill' with adrenalin and other hormones which significantly alter their ability to react within their training.
I have known ops to use far too much force, to kick assailants vehicles, throw radios at them(!).... all manner of crazy reactions which in the classroom they would never ever believe that they could do!

So, imagine a Police Officer approaching a suspect and pointing his handgun, and then something happens which floods him with adrenalin....... a pistol's first pressure and second pressure which might seem very 'certain' in training are passed before the brain can think. An officer might even later discover that he/she shot a suspect five times when he only remembered firing once.....

Police officers should be 'incident' trained when under all kinds of extra influences and stresses, and the courses should have a very hard pass-level.

THis does not mean to criticise the officer in the Ferguson incident....... I have no clear idea about what happened.....

As to what happened, I don't know either. Time may tell...

 

[s2a]

I confess that most of the anecdotal testimonials offered by both citizens of the US
(and primarily the UK) do admit to examples of both police and community excesses. One common thread found within both is the legal empowerment of police to passes and use lethal force to enforce the "law". It's a dirty, nasty job being a cop, and any training or experience in confronting "bad guys" (especially those with guns) is ultimate;y a call within citizens to arm their protectors with weapons that (when used properly) are distinctly designed to kill. Not maim, not disarm, not incapacitate, the intended, but to kill. Whenever an officer of the police is called upon to draw their weapon, the intent is to KILL.

Two sad facts reveal themselves in this simplistic observation...

...it costs more to employ a non-lethal response weapon than one designed to kill...

...non-lethal methods of self-defense are less effective than just killing a "bad guy".

Don't just blame the cops...we are all complicit in this choice.

Same deal as it may apply to enforceable "law"

When "the people" choose to endorse the legality of a cop shooting a "bad guy" with a gun (or even just being a scary dude), under ANY valid circumstance that a cop may deem such as necessary...then, you get what you vote (or don't vote) for.

Obviously, "society" has chosen, time and time again, to favor the cost-cutting expediency of using weapons designed to kill, over weapons designed to incapacitate or disarm...with equal effectiveness.

If you morally/objectively/proportionally find such laws as being ill-suited to policing enforcement in YOUR community, stop "protesting", and go vote. EVERY time. EVERY TIME.

Be the change you wish to see/have in your neighborhood...or shut up.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes.. I'm not aware of any study that applies to cops or anything that would justify the conclusion that deadly force is avoidable in all cases. All I've done is ask QUESTIONS about your views on stress. If you're just a cop then id question what makes you an expert in counseling and stress management if youve had no academic and clinical training along with having your work peer-reviwed by real experts and scientists.

Oh my Gawd.......... Stress-thesholds apply to all human beings! You have a very long way to go....

all you have done is ask questions, eh? Do I have to print some of your more crass posts again?

..... real experts and scientists....... :biglaugh: . Well, you are not one for sure.

My knowledge in counselling was gathered over 15-20 years (since mobile-phones were issued, mostly) , because hundreds and hundreds of private ops all over Britain would call to tell me that that were hurt, frightened, arrested, charged, cautioned, had bad-stopped and Lord knows what else. You lot were nowhere to be seen. In this one area I could eat a 'qualified' .... for breakfast.

........ so you are a scholar snob? I taught body language and 'interest selection' to commercial detectives for over 20 years. I wrote about it a national magazine for 15 years, and in the end I got a page to myself each month. I would love to discuss my area of expertise with somebody who knows about it.

 

[oldbadger]

Training will help.

You read my posts after all.....
And continuing training reviews...... and continuing stress-theshold assessments. And counselling.

...you'll get there...... it just takes a bit longer for some folks.

 

[oldbadger]

Saying there's a problem with cops using excessive force in the US and particularly in Ferguson without any evidence is unreasonable to draw a conclusion from. Seeing how noncritical you are on these matters I hope your data on stress factors comes from real experts and objective sources.

...... then wairt until you know the truth. I didn't have this conversation with you. You're all over the place.

You quote me as saying, "What does stress training do to protect a cop from a criminal with a gun or who is physically assaulting people?"

Notice the question mark. I was asking and not giving a view. Next quote of me,

".................. with Mike Brown robbing a store. And then later assaulting a police officer and even trying to take the cop's gun."

Yes there is video footage of Mike Brown so my view of the first statement is based on verifiable, or I should say now verified, evidence. The second statement I should've specified it is something that's been alleged. Here's your last quote of me,

"......... Mike Brown allegedly attacked the cop which led to the fatal head shot. ....................."

Your last quote of me I clearly specified it was something that's been alleged. Any other False representations of my view?

....... no backpeddling now, please. You have been p[rejudging all from the start...

 

[oldbadger]

President Obama is not always right nor is he above logic and evidence and he's offered nothing to support either side. Please stick to talking about stress because that seems to be the only thing you come close to being reasonable at.

You asked why I thought there was a prob in Ferguson..... I pointed out your President's concerns.....

I don't think that you think straight...

 

[s2a]

Oh my Gawd.......... Stress-thesholds apply to all human beings! You have a very long way to go....

all you have done is ask questions, eh? Do I have to print some of your more crass posts again?

..... real experts and scientists....... :biglaugh: . Well, you are not one for sure.

My knowledge in counselling was gathered over 15-20 years (since mobile-phones were issued, mostly) , because hundreds and hundreds of private ops all over Britain would call to tell me that that were hurt, frightened, arrested, charged, cautioned, had bad-stopped and Lord knows what else. You lot were nowhere to be seen. In this one area I could eat a 'qualified' .... for breakfast.

........ so you are a scholar snob? I taught body language and 'interest selection' to commercial detectives for over 20 years. I wrote about it a national magazine for 15 years, and in the end I got a page to myself each month. I would love to discuss my area of expertise with somebody who knows about it.

Not that it really matters...

...But what does a guy scratching his nuts at a Baseball game really say about himself?

I'm certainly no expert...just wondering...