oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Read the title...... it's about 'Ferguson' and everything around the Ferguson incident.....
Do you have comprehension issues?
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Ferguson: Moving on..why none of this will mater...
- Thread starter s2a
- Start date
Read the title...... it's about 'Ferguson' and everything around the Ferguson incident.....
Do you have comprehension issues?
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Yes....... Yes!
And the police policing body should also be the training, counselling, training review etc inspection body, and it could be countrywide so that individual fores do not have leverage over it.
Who will guard the guards....?
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Not that it really matters...
...But what does a guy scratching his nuts at a Baseball game really say about himself?
I'm certainly no expert...just wondering...
There are no experts......
But in private and contract operations we had to learn as quickly as possible, because when our ops made mistakes, like using too much force in a 'stop' or on a nightclub floor, or carrying money on transit, the cops were all over them, and they did not get the back-up or support that our cops gave each other.
So people like me had to train ops to work in legal and physical safety in ways which were quite unique to our jobs. That's the 'class' I came out of, and wrote about in our Security Magazine for so many years.
The reason why folks like me have to mention these things is because we do not have academic qualifications from Uni's......... there are no specific quals..... Uni lecturers would often come to our courses.... to sit in and gather.... and often their grasp of our work was very poor.....
....... those that can do..... those that can't.... ?
...so we scratch our balls now and then!!
Sometimes folks make 'em itch...... :biglaugh:
Alceste
Vagabond
There are no experts......
But in private and contract operations we had to learn as quickly as possible, because when our ops made mistakes, like using too much force in a 'stop' or on a nightclub floor, or carrying money on transit, the cops were all over them, and they did not get the back-up or support that our cops gave each other.
So people like me had to train ops to work in legal and physical safety in ways which were quite unique to our jobs. That's the 'class' I came out of, and wrote about in our Security Magazine for so many years.
The reason why folks like me have to mention these things is because we do not have academic qualifications from Uni's......... there are no specific quals..... Uni lecturers would often come to our courses.... to sit in and gather.... and often their grasp of our work was very poor.....
....... those that can do..... those that can't.... ?
...so we scratch our balls now and then!!
Sometimes folks make 'em itch...... :biglaugh:
I'm curious about the adrenaline response you were talking about. Something about cops squeezing off 8 or 9 shots but only remembering 1? Can you get into more detail about that? I've seen the autopsy from Michael Brown and I just watched another video of a cop gunning down another man who did not appear to be acting in a threatening way. I wondered, why are they shooting the guys over and over again?
In the video I saw, not only did the cop empty his clip on a non-threatening victim, they then rolled him over and handcuffed him even though he was obviously dead or or very near to it.
It's bizarre behavior, but I would like to understand the cause of it. Normal, well-adjusted people do not behave this way.
We should be aware that memories of witnesses & parties to an altercation will
generally have vastly different recollections from each other & from what happened.
What can a gorilla teach law enforcers?
generally have vastly different recollections from each other & from what happened.
What can a gorilla teach law enforcers?
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Alceste
Vagabond
Yes, this is definitely worth bearing in mind. People can be quite sincere but remember events wildly differently.
Awareness of that fact got Niel deGrasse Tyson booted from jury duty. Lol.
Dontcha hate it when RF makes spelling mistakes in our threads!?
s2a
Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Not to be unpleasant in bringing this up, but Michael Brown had NO previous criminal arrest record of any kind. None. Just to be clear.
Denoting Michael Brown as a dead criminal is not just offensive, it's patently inaccurate and unproven.
For what it's worth, I hope that justice and "truth" borne by facts do prevail.
If evidence proves, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Michael Brown was criminal in both intent and motivation, you "win".
Let's wait and see before we cast dispersions and unfounded allegations, shall we?
I hope the cop gets all the fair defense he deserves, within the law, if it can even be demonstrated his actions were unlawful.
Bear in mind the OP of this thread, that those particualr circumstances may not even matter under MO. law..which was the initial point.
And the online campaign that accepted funds for Wilson also brought with the funds such disparaging and racist comments that the fundraisers were forced to disable comments.
Bustle
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I wasn't aware a criminal was killed. You're going to have to let us in on your sources.
AgnosticBoy
Member
A criminal is someone who commits a crime but there is another definition of the word that includes being convicted. There is verifiable evidence of Michael Brown committing theft and physically assaulting a store clerk. So based on those acts alone, he is criminal in the first sense of the definition. Were he still alive, then he would've been convicted. We would not know about Michael Brown's juvenile records since arrests of minors under 18 are usually kept private.
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s2a
Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Nope. And wishing does not make it so. Every "defendant" no matter how "criminal" they may "seem", is entitled to a trial by their peers. Even when video "evidence" seems "slam dunk".
Unless "convicted" of an "indictable crime", no suspect is ever "guilty". EVER. They may remain as a "prime suspect", but are never "guilty". Charged or not. Please recall that the burden of evidence, in any and ALL cases is borne by the prosecution to present. It's never the burden of the defense to "prove" that the defendant wasn't/didn't/couldn't do "it". NEVER.
Welcome to your justice system, which one day, "guilty" or not, you may be thankful is in effect.
Now you got it.
Allegations are cheap, and a dime a dozen. Proof is hard.
Anyone more interested in actual justice, than conjecture and allegation, will wait whatever all the "evidence" may provide.
Is that unfair?
Despite your pointed guesses and accusations, you ignore the basic premise of the OP (mine, btw).
IF MO. law states that the testimony of a cop overrules even 100 eyewitnesses to the contrary, the cop wins. That's the law. And that's the point.
Doh.
AgnosticBoy
Member
You can't say that Michael Brown has no criminal background record unless you have access to his juvenile records and those are usually kept private.
Also, the word criminal has more than one definition or context usage so it is not just restricted to the legal definition which is what you're referring to. There's a common usage. There's also a logical and scientific aspect that could be applied here, as well. If Michael Brown robbed a store, just because court proceedings have not started yet, doesn't mean that he didn't rob a store or that he's a good person or that his behavior can't be called bad or a thug, etc, etc. We can at least say with logical support and scientific evidence or VERIFIABLE evidence that Michael Brown robbed the store even if that evidence has not yet been presented legally.
Welcome to your justice system, which one day, "guilty" or not, you may be thankful is in effect.
Yes, logic, science, and even morality are not always compatible with our legal system. Just because you can't prove that someone didn't commit the crime doesn't mean that they didn't commit it. There may not be any way to prove it or it may not be up to the standards of the court or jury members who themselves may be unreasonable or biased.
In a legal context, some times it is. However, scientific or logical evidence would not be hard to gather here given the video, the multiple people who identified Michael Brown in the video, etc.
I've never made any statements here that can't be supported by evidence. The problem here may just be that we're not specifying what we mean when we use certain terms. Either way if anyone wants to assert that Michael Brown was a saint, then they are living in Wonderland.
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Why the insistence that Michael Brown wasn't a saint?
He was a human being who was shot multiple times unarmed in broad daylight in the middle of the street.
Are these attempts to convince people that he deserved to die in the middle of a street, body left uncovered for hours? He was not given due process for jaywalking (which is why Wilson stopped him in the first place).
A citizen - whether he is considered a "thug"-POS-criminal or a teddy-bear-gentle-giant - was shot unarmed and the Ferguson PD has been handling this case with all kinds of Wrong from the sublime to the atrocious.
Not to mention that we have seen - and felt - tear gas used on citizens who are peacefully assembling by law enforcement sworn to protect and serve it's community.
I've BEEN there. I have family there. I have friends there. The desire to categorize people there as "looters", "thugs", "criminals" is beyond ridiculous now.
He was a human being who was shot multiple times unarmed in broad daylight in the middle of the street.
Are these attempts to convince people that he deserved to die in the middle of a street, body left uncovered for hours? He was not given due process for jaywalking (which is why Wilson stopped him in the first place).
A citizen - whether he is considered a "thug"-POS-criminal or a teddy-bear-gentle-giant - was shot unarmed and the Ferguson PD has been handling this case with all kinds of Wrong from the sublime to the atrocious.
Not to mention that we have seen - and felt - tear gas used on citizens who are peacefully assembling by law enforcement sworn to protect and serve it's community.
I've BEEN there. I have family there. I have friends there. The desire to categorize people there as "looters", "thugs", "criminals" is beyond ridiculous now.
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
There are multiple incidents/issues to consider and to form an opinion over.
Hands down, the excessive force utilized by law enforcement during demonstrations is troubling, to say the least and needs to be addressed. If this is the "norm" in Ferguson, it needs to be fixed. Edit to include: The media has depicted this excess force quite well.
These incidents do not necessarily demonstrate Wilson's attitude when he confronted Brown. Until the results of the investigation are in, I'm not willing to form a conclusive opinion as to whether or not Wilson was justified in shooting at Brown.
I'm not interested in labeling Wilson a racist without further evidence to support that he confronted Brown in this vein.
Considering that eye witnesses have provided accounts that do not fully mesh with presented evidence, I don't think it outlandish to require additional information.
Whether or not you've been there or not is irrelevant outside the scope that I care about you as a person and empathize with your pain and concerns. Edit to include: I know that you're sincere in your efforts to promote positive change and that you care about those promoting peace and positive change alongside you.
Edit to include: As you and others protesting were not eye witnesses to the alleged robbery, alleged jaywalking and shooting - you're no more qualified to comment on what happened in factual terms than those of us looking in from the outside.
Michael Brown appeared to make some stupid choices the day that he died. I don't undertand why a cop would shoot someone down for jaywalking alone, which, makes Wilson's account interesting to me and worth learning more about.
I'm not heartless. His mother's face, tear stained and tired was heart breaking. As a mother, my heart goes out to her and those who loved him.
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Father Heathen
Veteran Member
I think it would be wise to wait for further details regarding evidence, forensics, etc. from the investigation rather than jump on the presumptuous, melodramatic, sensationalist band wagon. The guy robbed a store, roughed up the owner, obstructed traffic by walking in the middle of the road, and then scuffled with police. He may have not deserved death, but it can't be denied that his own behavior placed him in that predicament. The only reason people are outraged is because the cop was white and the robber was black. Had the cop been black and the robber white, or had both the same race, this would've already been forgotten about.
If it turns out that the officer was indeed in the wrong, then he should be punished to the full extent of the law. Police corruption, misconduct, incompetence, etc. is indeed a serious problem that needs to be addressed, but to immediately jump to conclusions and assuming racism without objectively and rationally examining the details is asinine. It becomes hard to take accusations of racism seriously when people make a habit of playing the race card like it was Yu-Gi-Oh. You know, "The boy who cried wolf."
If it turns out that the officer was indeed in the wrong, then he should be punished to the full extent of the law. Police corruption, misconduct, incompetence, etc. is indeed a serious problem that needs to be addressed, but to immediately jump to conclusions and assuming racism without objectively and rationally examining the details is asinine. It becomes hard to take accusations of racism seriously when people make a habit of playing the race card like it was Yu-Gi-Oh. You know, "The boy who cried wolf."
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