Ferguson!

[Revoltingest]

Agreed, though, tear gas may come in handy if people choose to go bonkers - rioting & looting.
In one situation - mere protest - such a provision is excess.
In another - it may be a justified deterrant.

Aye, it's about a response which is appropriate for the situation.

 

[Father Heathen]

The issue of racism aside - something needs to happen right the **** now to end the violence.

Racism wouldn't matter as much - at least in this case - if the police didn't have the ability to destroy so much so fast. Disarm the police - then we can work out the longer term solutions - because we as citizens can actually force them to cease fire.

Corruption and misconduct within law enforcement is indeed a serious issue, and citizens who all races have been victims of it. I just don't see presumptuous accusations of racism helping matters. If it were a trigger-happy black cop shooting an unarmed white guy (do we even know the race of the cop in the Ferguson shooting?), I doubt the reaction from the public and the media would be quite the same. People make race an issue when it's not relevant, and that only serves as a distraction.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Corruption and misconduct within law enforcement is indeed a serious issue, and citizens who all races have been victims of it. I just don't see presumptuous accusations of racism helping matters. If it were a trigger-happy black cop shooting an unarmed white guy (do we even know the race of the cop in the Ferguson shooting?), I doubt the reaction from the public and the media would be quite the same. People make race an issue when it's not relevant, and that only serves as a distraction.

I understand. I'm not sure I agree, but I do understand.

But the thing is -

1) A lot of people think that racism is important, some people feel the negative effects of racism - so much so that we must deal with it.
2) We do know - it's actually proven - that police forces all over the nation have implemented racist policies, etc.
3) We also know - also proven - that minorities are disproportionatly arrested, convicted, and imprisoned

So when a lot of people see a white police officer murder a black kid, they put two and two together from what is factual, not made up.

 

[dawny0826]

I understand. I'm not sure I agree, but I do understand.

But the thing is -

1) A lot of people think that racism is important, some people feel the negative effects of racism - so much so that we must deal with it.
2) We do know - it's actually proven - that police forces all over the nation have implemented racist policies, etc.
3) We also know - also proven - that minorities are disproportionatly arrested, convicted, and imprisoned

So when a lot of people see a white police officer murder a black kid, they put two and two together from what is factual, not made up.

Do you think that he doesn't find racism to be important?

I don't think that this picture is accurate for every American locality. I won't argue that such racism exists, but, I think it's important to consider that in Ferguson, 70% of the population is black and the majority of the police force are white.

Addressing unwarranted brutality needs to happen.

But, what does disproportionate arrest and conviction look like in an American locality comprised mostly of one race?

 

[Father Heathen]

3) We also know - also proven - that minorities are disproportionatly arrested, convicted, and imprisoned.

How do you solve that issue? "We're gonna have to let you go. We can't make any arrests until we find a native american committing an offence in order to even out our numbers."

 

[Thruve]

How do you solve that issue? "We're gonna have to let you go. We can't make any arrests until we find a native american committing an offence in order to even out our numbers."

Frubie for awesome!

 

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

I know somewhat about riots due to my direct relations to India. I also did an extensive study of such in the 1980s. My wife personally observed Sikh rioting, many I know have observed Hindu-Muslim riots, I have personally observed semi-riots both in India, Oakland CA, Berkeley CA, and remember the riots of the 60s etc.. I have had a friend 2 minutes difference from being blown up in a bathroom in India during a time of such divisions and rioting.

I have been in dangerous situations of such tensions, violence, religious and racial street madness, etc..

If this becomes knee jerk in America, as it looks it is becoming and in my opinion actually has nothing to do with this shooting, I have seen this underlayer for some time now, you fools have no idea what it is going to come next. You have no idea how chemicals in the human system start triggering things and what all parties will do of all sects, races, affiliations, dillusions, and it won't be pretty. If this anarchy is not stopped, you will see chemical reactions triggering from non-blacks as well, and you have no idea what has actually been going on including ruffing up of Indian shop owners and Koreans and others by racist hip-hop black thugs, racism is also being practiced by African Americans there is no one people who have exclusive claim to such inane bigotry and mental sickness.

If this is not stopped, it is going to spread. Shop owners are now arming themselves because, as in the grocery store looting and violence that just happened, police are in some cases standing down and allowing the violent and criminal attacks on business and citizens. This is the wrong move.

You have no idea of the facts of this incident. That aside, if this knee jerk rioting is not stopped and given instead some justification, some sort of "nod" by the ignorant, you will see what is coming soon after. Hindu-Muslim riots of another name and face is coming. Violence in this manner, rioting in this manner, is violence period and this is also a form of racism.

 

[freethinker44]

Those trained in military tactics & supplied with tools of that trade are a problem.
As they say, to a carpenter all problems look like nails.

By "trained in military tactics", I hope you're not blaming veterans who join the police force. I see a lot of that on social media, people saying the problem is soldiers with PTSD coming home and becoming police officers, and I'm not buying it. We had pretty strict ROE when I was deployed; no firing without positive identification and only if it is in defense of your own life and even then we had to practice proper escalation of force, not just shoot kill as the first option. Police don't seem to get that training.

Heck, even with that ROE, one unit I was attached to said we had to ask radio up for permission to fire back even if they were shooting at us. In pre-deployment training, one scenario I was given was, if you and your buddy are fired upon and buddy gets shot and killed and the shooter gets up and runs away, if we shoot and kill him we've just committed murder, because by running away he's no longer a threat so our use of force would be unwarranted. Police training appears to be the opposite of this.

 

[Alceste]

How do you solve that issue? "We're gonna have to let you go. We can't make any arrests until we find a native american committing an offence in order to even out our numbers."

There are systemic flaws in American law enforcement that could fairly easily be corrected. For example, the police force in any region should make efforts to reflect the demographic make-up of the people they are there to protect. That would go a long way to correcting the impact of racial profiling by police.

In Ferguson, the people are nearly all black and the police are nearly all white. That's just stupid, IMO, and has greatly contributed to this particular mess.

 

[dawny0826]

There are systemic flaws in American law enforcement that could fairly easily be corrected. For example, the police force in any region should make efforts to reflect the demographic make-up of the people they are there to protect. That would go a long way to correcting the impact of racial profiling by police.

In Ferguson, the people are nearly all black and the police are nearly all white. That's just stupid, IMO, and has greatly contributed to this particular mess.

How do you know that the racial composition of Ferguson's police department is purposeful? Have you researched the issue?

If you had evidence that blacks were purposefully not hired onto the force, I'll take issue myself.

My husband's home town had one or two black families LIVING THERE. If they were arrested for a crime, is the arrest racist, because they happen to be black?

 

[Father Heathen]

Do you think that he doesn't find racism to be important?

Thank you.

I do consider racism to be an important issue. But I also think that the "race card" is hastily and inappropriately pulled way too often, and that there are a lot of hypocrisy and double standards among the public and within the media in regards to race and racism. Such attitudes are not only detrimental towards a color-blind society that embraces equality and mutual respect, but actually fosters real racism due to making it hard for people to take claims and accusations seriously.

 

[Father Heathen]

For example, the police force in any region should make efforts to reflect the demographic make-up of the people they are there to protect.

How, by kidnapping and conscripting random people off the street until they get the desired racial ratio? Doesn't police departments' demographic make-up fall upon who actually enlists and qualifies to serve?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The vast majority of the time, protestors have stayed back, hands in the air, chanting and praying. And when I say vast majority of the time, I mean for days and days and days non-stop.

The vast majority of the time, police were shooting rubber pellets into the crowd. Tear-gassing residents and local news crews. They had attack dogs at the scene of the crime just a few hours after the shooting because the number of residents began to grow that were congregating around the scene and Brown's body. And those attack dogs stayed there facing the crowd LONG before any rioting or looting occured.

The vast majority of time, people I know personally have walked up to the burned out QT, cleaning up debris with others, organizing prayer circles to pray for the residents, for the mourners, and for the police. They have been gassed multiple times. Nobody has ever told them why they were tear-gassed.

We've got a major problem here. It truly is a crisis. People can shake their heads, and especially when people are not there.

But once the residents - who are predominantly black - talk about racial tensions between them and the mostly white police force who patrol their district, and who bring up instances much like Brown's shooting, suddenly people who are not there do everything they can to brush it off and accuse the residents or anyone who sees what they see of playing the race card.

And then other blacks from other areas corroborate with their stories of being stopped and frisked, of walking home from school and being stopped by police and either questioned about their intentions. Not just once, but many many times throughout their lives.

So, if race does play a part in this, and some people will say that it does but only tangentially, but would rather not talk about it or suggest that it isn't the bigger issue, let's at least talk about it for a bit and acknowledge that racial tensions exist in places like Ferguson, and racial experiences differ greatly around the country.

Oh, and both nights that the rioting and looting occured, people I know have stated repeatedly that these folks have not been from Ferguson. They have been identified as opportunists.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I knew a Russian (Since American citizen) while in Iowa for my company training who explained life during the warsaw pact era.

And some of my best friends are Soviet Jews.

And I spent a month in jail in which every other person in my barracks had been arrested in the Watts rebellion.

And I was one of the demonstrators on campus shortly after the Kent State shooting.

And …​

And none of this raises the civil rights abuses in the US to that which would warrant characterizing this country as a police state.

 

[Father Heathen]

How do you know that the racial composition of Ferguson's police department is purposeful? Have you researched the issue?

If you had evidence that blacks were purposefully not hired onto the force, I'll take issue myself.

My husband's home town had one or two black families LIVING THERE. If they were arrested for a crime, is the arrest racist, because they happen to be black?

Way back when, at my high school in a small rural town, for a brief period of time there was only one black kid. He was always getting into trouble; cursing at teachers, bullying other students, etc. He was sent to our school for getting kicked out of another high school from a neighboring, and much larger, city. He of course wasn't the only trouble-maker, and in fact he developed a following with the other trouble-makers. He got in trouble a lot, but was never treated any different from any of the other kids who behaved the same way. However, because he was black, should the school's mostly white facility have been considered racist for disciplining him for his offenses, or should the facility have allowed him to commit offenses with impunity in order to avoid appearing racist?

 

[dawny0826]

So, if race does play a part in this, and some people will say that it does but only tangentially, but would rather not talk about it or suggest that it isn't the bigger issue, let's at least talk about it for a bit and acknowledge that racial tensions exist in places like Ferguson, and racial experiences differ greatly around the country.

Oh, and both nights that the rioting and looting occured, people I know have stated repeatedly that these folks have not been from Ferguson. They have been identified as opportunists.

No one has said that there aren't racial tensions or that racism doesn't exist within American law enforcement, within Ferguson.

Whether opportunists or not, whether from Ferguson or not, FH raised the point that those who have rioted and looted have not aided the situation. Police idleness to crime isn't acceptable.

FH was essentially accused of being racist, when he (and I both) AGREE that there's a significant problem when law enforcment uses excessive force.

We're not undermining or denying any legitimate racial issues that are at play or construed. I do want MORE information before I accuse others of racism.

We're also not going to tell anyone that we know with certainty that Brown was shot because he was black without additional information.

There's a lot of emotion with this case and understandably so. Hopefully, with state police in control, the peace and calm will continue. Hopefully, this scenario will yield better things for the people of Ferguson.

 

[Alceste]

How do you know that the racial composition of Ferguson's police department is purposeful? Have you researched the issue?

If you had evidence that blacks were purposefully not hired onto the force, I'll take issue myself.

My husband's home town had one or two black families LIVING THERE. If they were arrested for a crime, is the arrest racist, because they happen to be black?

Sorry, did I say or even imply that it was purposeful?

 

[Alceste]

How, by kidnapping and conscripting random people off the street until they get the desired racial ratio? Doesn't police departments' demographic make-up fall upon who actually enlists and qualifies to serve?

Are you under the impression that minorities are not applying?

 

[Father Heathen]

Are you under the impression that minorities are not applying?

Are you under the impression that they are, only for their applications to be dismissed due to their race?

 

[dawny0826]

Sorry, did I say or even imply that it was purposeful?

You mentioned systematic flaws with American police forces and suggested that there's issue with law enforcement not representing the demographic.

My question to you probably should have been...how do you address such a systematic flaw?

What if those on the force are those who were qualified for the job? What then?

Does Ferguson make effort to hire minorities from elsewhere to better represent the people?