Ferguson!

[Father Heathen]

Sorry, did I say or even imply that it was purposeful?

Your accusations of racial profiling and declining applications based on race suggests that yes, yes you have.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You mentioned systematic flaws with American police forces and suggested that there's issue with law enforcement not representing the demographic.

My question to you probably should have been...how do you address such a systematic flaw?

What if those on the force are those who were qualified for the job? What then?

Does Ferguson make effort to hire minorities from elsewhere to better represent the people?

When Missouri Highway Patrol brought in a former resident of Ferguson, and who is black, to be in charge of the investigation, tensions eased dramatically.

It makes a major difference. Representation matters greatly.

 

[dawny0826]

When Missouri Highway Patrol brought in a former resident of Ferguson, and who is black, to be in charge of the investigation, tensions eased dramatically.

It makes a major difference. Representation matters greatly.

I haven't disagreed with this.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I haven't disagreed with this.

I was offering info I thought was relevant to addressing how a department can add to better relations with the people they are sworn to protect and serve. One way is to make an effort to have a reasonable demographic that reflects the demographics of the community.

The method of attaining that has been debated for a while.

 

[dawny0826]

I was offering info I thought was relevant to addressing how a department can add to better relations with the people they are sworn to protect and serve. One way is to make an effort to have a reasonable demographic that reflects the demographics of the community.

The method of attaining that has been debated for a while.

I opine that the state has handled the situation well by bringing Johnson in.

How do you assure a "reasonable" demographic on the police force? Does Ferguson hire its officers - equal opportunity?

If not, there's a problem. If so, how do you "fix" something that might not be broken?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I opine that the state has handled the situation well by bringing Johnson in.

How do you assure a "reasonable" demographic on the police force? Does Ferguson hire its officers - equal opportunity?

If not, there's a problem. If so, how do you "fix" something that might not be broken?

These are questions I don't have an answer to. The "how", that is.

 

[LuisDantas]

how do you "fix" something that might not be broken?

Generally speaking, by employing preventative measures.

In this case, attempts at representation are an obvious one.

"Representation" is a word that is still usually understood in these contexts to mean having people who were born or at least lived in the geographical areas being decided about. It is, as far as I know, a reference to popular American feelings going back to the 1750s and arguably to the 1689 British Bill of Rights.

No taxation without representation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bill of Rights 1689 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is fair and good, of course. But the current situation may well allow for other forms of representation as well. It is now possible and perhaps necessary to be aware of the dilemmas and needs of communities in ways that could be hardly imagined back in the 17th and 18th centuries.

Some efforts at demographical awareness and reciprocal evaluation between law enforcement and the voting community could probably be conceived and employed, in order to allow for gradual and hopefully non-traumatic adjustments between the expectations of both sides (police officers and the larger community which is subject to their authority). Say, the yearly election of a small specific percentage police officers that should be retired early due to perceived lack of appropriate sensibility or even arbitrarily. Ancient greeks had a comparable institution which gave birth to the word "ostracism".

Come to think of it, that would be a better use of the electoral system than the current expectation that a single person can somehow be representative of a few million people, at least 40% did not even want to elect him.

Likewise, officers could (and probably already do) use internal initiatives of their own. I assume they have some say on where they are assigned to, as do their superiors. It is or at least should be possible for officers to be reassigned out of areas they are deemed poor fits to. It should also be possible to voluntarily choose some sort of awareness training in order to better understand about hot spots of specific assignments and areas. Better yet is to establish some degree of gradual mixing and matching among officer teams, so that awareness if not necessarily agreement of ethical dilemmas and diversity spreads along the whole institutions.

 

[Revoltingest]

By "trained in military tactics", I hope you're not blaming veterans who join the police force.

No, I did not intend that. I referred to training specific to cops.
Of course, veterans would receive new training for law enforcement.

 

[dawny0826]

Some efforts at demographical awareness and reciprocal evaluation between law enforcement and the voting community could probably be conceived and employed, in order to allow for gradual and hopefully non-traumatic adjustments between the expectations of both sides (police officers and the larger community which is subject to their authority). Say, the yearly election of a small specific percentage police officers that should be retired early due to perceived lack of appropriate sensibility or even arbitrarily. Ancient greeks had a comparable institution which gave birth to the word "ostracism".

The majority of the police force wouldn't be voted into position anyway. The majority, like Wilson, are hired into their roles.

If there's a concern regarding diversity on the police force, I would think it important to first evaluate the recruitment process and the qualifications of an officer to assure that the process adequately welcomes and accommodates diversity.

Come to think of it, that would be a better use of the electoral system than the current expectation that a single person can somehow be representative of a few million people, at least 40% did not even want to elect him.

But 60% did want to elect him in a predominately black community.

Likewise, officers could (and probably already do) use internal initiatives of their own. I assume they have some say on where they are assigned to, as do their superiors. It is or at least should be possible for officers to be reassigned out of areas they are deemed poor fits to. It should also be possible to voluntarily choose some sort of awareness training in order to better understand about hot spots of specific assignments and areas. Better yet is to establish some degree of gradual mixing and matching among officer teams, so that awareness if not necessarily agreement of ethical dilemmas and diversity spreads along the whole institutions.

Training/education is good and I hope will be considered. We haven't been given any insight as to what's already in place.

 

[Alceste]

You mentioned systematic flaws with American police forces and suggested that there's issue with law enforcement not representing the demographic.

My question to you probably should have been...how do you address such a systematic flaw?

What if those on the force are those who were qualified for the job? What then?

Does Ferguson make effort to hire minorities from elsewhere to better represent the people?

They should make the officer who is now handling the police response or someone like him (I.e. competent, qualified and black) chief there, and a demographic shift will inevitably follow. People tend to hire people they identify with, culturally. It's an inherent bias that ordinarily goes unchecked, and results in completely absurd situations like an all white police force in an all black town. Just being aware of it is a step in the right direction.

 

[dawny0826]

They should make the officer who is now handling the police response or someone like him (I.e. competent, qualified and black) chief there, and a demographic shift will inevitably follow. People tend to hire people they identify with, culturally. It's an inherent bias that ordinarily goes unchecked, and results in completely absurd situations like an all white police force in an all black town. Just being aware of it is a step in the right direction.

This might be feasible for those poistions that can be appointed. You've run into a problem when looking at those positions that must be voted for.

Eliminating someone from a position who is already qualified and competent based on race alone can be construed as dicrimination as well.

I don't think it's wise to assume the extent of bias without having a touch on the actual recruitment and hiring process, personally.

 

[Alceste]

This might be feasible for those poistions that can be appointed. You've run into a problem when looking at those positions that must be voted for.

Eliminating someone from a position who is already qualified and competent based on race alone can be construed as dicrimination as well.

I don't think it's wise to assume the extent of bias without having a touch on the actual recruitment and hiring process, personally.

I think there are ample grounds for sacking the current chief right now. He tear gassed peaceful protestors and his heavy handed, militant response caused existing racial tensions to boil over. He's the wrong man for the job. I won't be surprised if he is quietly shuffled along when the heat in Ferguson simmers down.

Here's an anecdote for you. My crew boss once said he wishes he could hire an all female crew, but he doesn't think he could get away with it. I told him, sure you can. Just don't do it on purpose. Hire the people you want, and if they all happen to be women, that's just how it ended up. Nobody is hiring all male crews "on purpose", but you see them everywhere.

 

[dawny0826]

I think there are ample grounds for sacking the current chief right now. He tear gassed peaceful protestors and his heavy handed, militant response caused existing racial tensions to boil over. He's the wrong man for the job. I won't be surprised if he is quietly shuffled along when the heat in Ferguson simmers down.

Here's an anecdote for you. My crew boss once said he wishes he could hire an all female crew, but he doesn't think he could get away with it. I told him, sure you can. Just don't do it on purpose. Hire the people you want, and if they all happen to be women, that's just how it ended up. Nobody is hiring all male crews "on purpose", but you see them everywhere.

I don't think anyone posting on this thread is qualified or aware enough of the situation to state with confidence that the current chief should be sacked. With this said, I wouldn't have any qualms with his removal or resignation if that's what's decided.

Those with the ability to remove him are far more qualified to make that determination than I am.

Your anecdotal account doesn't prove that men or women were being discriminated against during the hiring process either. In an equal opportunity hiring environment, qualifications and competencies should have the most weight.

If that results in an all-one gender or all=one race working environment, that should tell the company that qualifications and hiring practices may need to be adjusted to reasonably accommodate diversity, which is important.

Removing the current chief, if that's what's decided upon to replace him with SOMEONE ELSE more qualified might be a good course of action. To choose someone with a specific skin color is as hypocritical as the current flaws you perceive in the system.

 

[Father Heathen]

They should make the officer who is now handling the police response or someone like him (I.e. competent, qualified and black) chief there, and a demographic shift will inevitably follow. People tend to hire people they identify with, culturally. It's an inherent bias that ordinarily goes unchecked, and results in completely absurd situations like an all white police force in an all black town. Just being aware of it is a step in the right direction.

Gaining a position of employment should be based on qualifications, experience, competency, character, etc. But if skin color is used as a determining factor, for whatever reason, on whether or not they're hired, then it only serves to facilitate racism rather than combat it. If you genuinely want an equal, color-blind society, then race has to be treated as irrelevant as hair color (no one whines about the ratio of people with blond hair to people with brown hair)

 

[Alceste]

I don't think anyone posting on this thread is qualified or aware enough of the situation to state with confidence that the current chief should be sacked. With this said, I wouldn't have any qualms with his removal or resignation if that's what's decided.

Those with the ability to remove him are far more qualified to make that determination than I am.

Your anecdotal account doesn't prove that men or women were being discriminated against during the hiring process either. In an equal opportunity hiring environment, qualifications and competencies should have the most weight.

If that results in an all-one gender or all=one race working environment, that should tell the company that qualifications and hiring practices may need to be adjusted to reasonably accommodate diversity, which is important.

Removing the current chief, if that's what's decided upon to replace him with SOMEONE ELSE more qualified might be a good course of action. To choose someone with a specific skin color is as hypocritical as the current flaws you perceive in the system.

Gaining a position of employment should be based on qualifications, experience, competency, character, etc. But if skin color is used as a determining factor, for whatever reason, on whether or not they're hired, then it only serves to facilitate racism rather than combat it. If you genuinely want an equal, color-blind society, then race has to be treated as irrelevant as hair color (no one whines about the ratio of people with blond hair to people with brown hair)

Hiring SHOULD be based on merit, I agree. However, multiple studies have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that it isn't. People have a massive bias toward people from their own demographic background when hiring. That's a fact. I'm compelled to make use of it in the construction of my opinions.

 

[dawny0826]

Hiring SHOULD be based on merit, I agree. However, multiple studies have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that it isn't. People have a massive bias toward people from their own demographic background when hiring. That's a fact. I'm compelled to make use of it in the construction of my opinions.

Then, as I've suggested now twice, perhaps there needs to be greater inspect on hiring practices and qualifications.

What can be done to eliminate unfair bias?

In my line of work, cultural sensitivity and diversity training is offered monthly to employees to provide insight as to how we can best serve our community and work with each other, appreciating the strengths to be found within diversity. It's not impossible to look at a candidate for their qualifications and merit vs. their outer composure and characteristics. I've never personally hired based on personal bias nor have a fired on personal bias.

Those in positions to hire and fire must be able to make unbiased decisions. I don't believe that pulling out the white guy and replacing him with a black guy is the "fix" to the problem. It aids racism by placing overt emphasis on race and NOT on qualification.

 

[Father Heathen]

Hiring SHOULD be based on merit, I agree. However, multiple studies have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that it isn't. People have a massive bias toward people from their own demographic background when hiring. That's a fact. I'm compelled to make use of it in the construction of my opinions.

Sure, that's how things are, but if it's not the desired ideal then why perpetuate and propagate such a mentality? The notion of countering racism with racism seems rather stupid to me. Some people might find it emotionally gratifying in the short term, but how would it actually solve anything long term? Keeping people on crutches won't gain them equality.

 

[tytlyf]

I've been following the teaparty representatives on Fox Nation with this Ferguson story. Racism is boiling over in the comment section. I'm surprised fox hasn't shut down the comments like they normally do.

1 Shot, 7 Arrested After Dozens Defy Ferguson Curfew - Fox Nation

 

[Revoltingest]

It becomes more complicated....
A Witness Conversation Unknowingly Captured at the Scene of the Ferguson Shooting is a Game-Changer

I know, I know....Koch Bros, Limbaugh, Bush....the source is part of the conspiracy.
Nonetheless, it's news, & should be examined.

 

[Revoltingest]

I've been following the teaparty representatives on Fox Nation with this Ferguson story. Racism is boiling over in the comment section. I'm surprised fox hasn't shut down the comments like they normally do.

1 Shot, 7 Arrested After Dozens Defy Ferguson Curfew - Fox Nation

Racism abounds on multiple sides of this controversy....
BLACK PANTHERS Lead Massive March in #Ferguson==> ‘Death Chants’ to Officer Darren Wilson (Video) | The Gateway Pundit

The news media are also enabling the lynch mob by disclosing where the cop lives.