Fighting Two Fronts

[kylixguru]

This kind of faith based on the reward of resurrection is a conditional faith worthy menstrual rags, if you forgive me the disgusting adjective. No difference from the faith of Paul who was ready to make a carnival of his life if the dead won't resurrect. As he said, "Let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die." (I Cor. 15:32) That's very embarrassing for the founder of Christianity. (Acts 11:26)

You don't even know what the resurrection is to start with.
If you did you wouldn't see it as you do.

Paul shall be fully vindicated in all that he has taught.

 

[Ben Masada]

You don't even know what the resurrection is to start with.
If you did you wouldn't see it as you do.

Paul shall be fully vindicated in all that he has taught.

Do you see what I mean? "Paul shall be fully vindicated in all that he has taught." Why shall he be vindicated for teaching what he taught? Why not just forget about vindication or rewards and do the job from an idealistic point of view? The great Scholar, Moses Maimonides says in his opus prima "The Guide for the Perplexed" that it is only natural that a person, who has attained a certain degree of perfection, wishes to impart to others, either orally or in writing, any portion of the knowledge which he has acquired of these subjects." The reward is already in the effect that he causes. It is to be too small spiritually to share the truth with an eye in an afterlife reward.

 

[kylixguru]

Do you see what I mean? "Paul shall be fully vindicated in all that he has taught." Why shall he be vindicated for teaching what he taught? Why not just forget about vindication or rewards and do the job from an idealistic point of view? The great Scholar, Moses Maimonides says in his opus prima "The Guide for the Perplexed" that it is only natural that a person, who has attained a certain degree of perfection, wishes to impart to others, either orally or in writing, any portion of the knowledge which he has acquired of these subjects." The reward is already in the effect that he causes. It is to be too small spiritually to share the truth with an eye in an afterlife reward.

Paul shall be vindicated because he could see the big picture of what God is doing with His people Israel. He is using them to teach us what the resurrection is and how it works. You are viewing Paul from a very narrow point of view.

Paul came to realize the great glory God has in store for His people Israel when they have completed their period of punishments and are gathered back together and entirely freed of their adversaries.

God reserves the privilege to receive resurrection during this period of history for those who live worthy to be received into it. It is because of Paul's understanding of this and his great joy in this that he was willing to waste away his lifetime then so that he and all those he could pursuade to do their part to prepare for it would partake of it. I see the validity of all that Paul taught in this regard.

Paul will make a lot more sense to you when you come to understand what the Lord meant when He decreed that Aholibah (Judah) would be given to drink deep and wide of her sister Aholah's (Samaria's) cup. You think the northern kingdom is gone for good and shall never be regathered together and freed of their adversaries. Thus, because of this, you are cursing yourselves to drink of that same cup.

When you come to understand the resurrection you will come to understand that Judah's restoration shall be in conjunction with the restoration of the northern tribes of Israel. And, when you come to understand how Israel and Judah shall be resurrected as a people then you shall come to understand how you as a person shall also come to be resurrected as well.

Seriously Ben, you are subsisting on measly crumbs of self-supposed righteousness and totally disrespecting the salvation your God has prepared for you likeing it to dirty rags. I hope you figure this out before it's too late for you.

 

[Ben Masada]

Paul shall be vindicated because he could see the big picture of what God is doing with His people Israel. He is using them to teach us what the resurrection is and how it works. You are viewing Paul from a very narrow point of view.

Paul came to realize the great glory God has in store for His people Israel when they have completed their period of punishments and are gathered back together and entirely freed of their adversaries.

God reserves the privilege to receive resurrection during this period of history for those who live worthy to be received into it. It is because of Paul's understanding of this and his great joy in this that he was willing to waste away his lifetime then so that he and all those he could pursuade to do their part to prepare for it would partake of it. I see the validity of all that Paul taught in this regard.

Paul will make a lot more sense to you when you come to understand what the Lord meant when He decreed that Aholibah (Judah) would be given to drink deep and wide of her sister Aholah's (Samaria's) cup. You think the northern kingdom is gone for good and shall never be regathered together and freed of their adversaries. Thus, because of this, you are cursing yourselves to drink of that same cup.

When you come to understand the resurrection you will come to understand that Judah's restoration shall be in conjunction with the restoration of the northern tribes of Israel. And, when you come to understand how Israel and Judah shall be resurrected as a people then you shall come to understand how you as a person shall also come to be resurrected as well.

Seriously Ben, you are subsisting on measly crumbs of self-supposed righteousness and totally disrespecting the salvation your God has prepared for you likeing it to dirty rags. I hope you figure this out before it's too late for you.

I already understand resurrection from studying Ezekiel 37:12. A resurrection of God's People from exile among the nations and back to the Land of Israel. Take a look at Isaiah 53:8,9. When we are forced into exile, it is as if we have been cut off from the Land of the Living, which is the Land of Israel and buried in the graves of the Diaspora. When the exile is over, the Almighty opens those graves, gets all the bones together in His "hand" and brings us back to the Land of Israel. Read the quotes above and see that I am not bluffing.

 

[kylixguru]

I already understand resurrection from studying Ezekiel 37:12. A resurrection of God's People from exile among the nations and back to the Land of Israel. Take a look at Isaiah 53:8,9. When we are forced into exile, it is as if we have been cut off from the Land of the Living, which is the Land of Israel and buried in the graves of the Diaspora. When the exile is over, the Almighty opens those graves, gets all the bones together in His "hand" and brings us back to the Land of Israel. Read the quotes above and see that I am not bluffing.

Very good! You are part way there!

And, do you see that Judah was given Samaria's cup?

That being the case, how can you expect your own resurrection and still deny the resurrection of the northern kingdom?

Thus, when you start to open your eyes you will come to discover that Ephraim/Joseph was given the America's as his land of inheritance in addition to what he has in Palestine. And, you will also understand the place of gathering the Jews are now flocking to is thanks to the work of their brother even while scattered among the Gentiles...

 

[Ben Masada]

Very good! You are part way there!

And, do you see that Judah was given Samaria's cup?

That being the case, how can you expect your own resurrection and still deny the resurrection of the northern kingdom?

Thus, when you start to open your eyes you will come to discover that Ephraim/Joseph was given the America's as his land of inheritance in addition to what he has in Palestine. And, you will also understand the place of gathering the Jews are now flocking to is thanks to the work of their brother even while scattered among the Gentiles...

Wrong! Samaria's cup was a permanent rejection by God in an exile without end. The exile of Judah was limited to only 70 years. Read Psalm 78:67-69 and Jeremiah 25:12. Those from the ancient Ten Tribes who wish to join Judah, they must convert. They have mingled with the Gentiles and become just like them.

 

[kylixguru]

Wrong! Samaria's cup was a permanent rejection by God in an exile without end. The exile of Judah was limited to only 70 years. Read Psalm 78:67-69 and Jeremiah 25:12. Those from the ancient Ten Tribes who wish to join Judah, they must convert. They have mingled with the Gentiles and become just like them.

Why do you ignore my question and try to derail my points?

God's legal system can have more than one charge leveled. We can cover those other passages after you finish answering mine.

Judah was given Samaria's cup. See Ezekiel 23:31 which says "Thou (Judah) hast walked in the way of thy sister (Samaria); therefore will I give her cup into thine hand."

There is no mistake about it. Whatever punishment you ascribe to the northern kingdom you are ascribing to yourself. And, it isn't them having to come to you for their salvation. It shall be you thanking them for your salvation. The State of Israel has Britain and the USA as major benefactors in even having an opportunity to be gathered back to their native lands of inheritance.

But, unfortunately, per Leviticus 26:23-25, when a judgment goes into the 7x factor, there are also some very unpleasant consequences that await them when they initially gather back too. It says that they shall even then be given over to the hand of the enemy. Their sins shall follow them into their resurrection.

Thus, both the USA and the State of Israel shall be totally overcome and taken for a spoil by the enemy as a part of their punishment. This is why such hardships have continued even in their gathering and shall yet continue far more than we now see.

This is the basis of our hope: See Leviticus 26:40-46.

We must confess our iniquity and the iniquity of our fathers.
We must confess our trespasses against the Lord and the covenant.
We must confess our rebellion against the Lord in walking contrary to Him.
We must realize it is the Lord who has thus walked contrarty to us.
We must realize the Lord is who drove us out and scattered us by our enemies.
We must circumcise our hearts in the depths of humility.
We must accept without resentment the punishments we have received for our iniquity.

THEN, the Lord promises...

I will remember my covenant with JACOB (not just Judah).
I will remember my covenant with Isaac (not just Judah).
I will remember my covenant with Abraham (not just Judah).
I will remember the land.

All these things shall be re-member-ed.
They shall be renewed.

Also, I believe it was true that Israel was put away forever (to the end of the age). This doesn't mean that Israel won't come forth in the morning of the 1st resurrection of the new creation when there is a new heavens and a new earth. You are correct that the coming forth of Israel is on Day 1, but it is their resurrection that is just around the corner as this old creation dies at the 6 thousand year mark and the new creation comes about with a Day 1.

And, Judah has been in exile for all these years scattered among the lands of her enemies because Aholibah was given Aholah's cup. And, you mean to tell me that you represent the light and life of the world? The true faith the whole world is supposed to idealize and model themselves after? From my point of view, you have quite a ways to go before such a claim can be made. As I see it, what should be on the lips of every single Jew is all of the confessions I listed above.

Instead of expressing humility in recognition of you as a people having been a very naughty and slutty woman who despised a good and honorable husband, you want me to consider you the light of the world?

 

[Ben Masada]

Judah was given Samaria's cup. See Ezekiel 23:31 which says "Thou (Judah) hast walked in the way of thy sister (Samaria); therefore will I give her cup into thine hand."

Yes, but with an enormous difference. The Samaria's cup was permanent for Samaria and temporary for Judah, due to God's promise to David that Judah would remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36; Jer. 25:12)

There is no mistake about it. Whatever punishment you ascribe to the northern kingdom you are ascribing to yourself. And, it isn't them having to come to you for their salvation. It shall be you thanking them for your salvation.

We are grateful to Israel and sorry that God's judgment which was supposed to come upon us lighted on Israel, albeit because of David. (Isa. 9:8). (I Kings 11;36) We have already mourned for Israel as one mourns for his firstborn son who has died. (Zech. 12:10) We are sorry for Israel. But Israel is gone and we are here. And according to Ezekiel, that's it. We shall be no more two nations or two kingdoms but one single People under the hegemony of Judah. (Ezek. 37:19,22)

The State of Israel has Britain and the USA as major benefactors in even having an opportunity to be gathered back to their native lands of inheritance.

We don't need them anymore to return to our homeland. We have been back already since 62 years ago. Now, we need them only to pay for all the expenses to rebuild our Temple, just as Persia did with the second Temple. Especially Britain that, to please the Arabs, caused the death of many of our People trying to escape Hitler.

We must confess our trespasses against the Lord and the covenant.
We must confess our rebellion against the Lord in walking contrary to Him.
We must realize it is the Lord who has thus walked contrarty to us.
We must realize the Lord is who drove us out and scattered us by our enemies.
We must circumcise our hearts in the depths of humility.
We must accept without resentment the punishments we have received for our iniquity.

We have done it all.

THEN, the Lord promises...

I will remember my covenant with JACOB (not just Judah).
I will remember my covenant with Isaac (not just Judah).
I will remember my covenant with Abraham (not just Judah).
I will remember the land.

Now, that Ephraim no longer exists, all of the above means just Judah, which is called by the new name of Israel, but that came forth from the waters of Judah. Read Isaiah 48:1.

Also, I believe it was true that Israel was put away forever (to the end of the age). This doesn't mean that Israel won't come forth in the morning of the 1st resurrection of the new creation when there is a new heavens and a new earth. You are correct that the coming forth of Israel is on Day 1, but it is their resurrection that is just around the corner as this old creation dies at the 6 thousand year mark and the new creation comes about with a Day 1.

There you go again with statements against nature and against the Scriptures. I have told you more than several times that bodily resurrection is a myth of Gentiles.
Our concept of resurrection is metaphorical in the words of Ezekiel 37:12.

And, Judah has been in exile for all these years scattered among the lands of her enemies because Aholibah was given Aholah's cup.

We are no longer in exile. Isaiah says that even if we were as the sand of the sea, only a small remnant shall return to the Land of our forefathers. We are back already. Hallo! Wake up and watch the news. (Isa. 10:21,22)

Instead of expressing humility in recognition of you as a people having been a very naughty and slutty woman who despised a good and honorable husband, you want me to consider you the light of the world?

That's not I the one who wants. They are the prophets and even Jesus himself who said in his Sermon of the Mount that we are the light of the world. (Mat. 5:14)

 

[kylixguru]

Yes, but with an enormous difference. The Samaria's cup was permanent for Samaria and temporary for Judah, due to God's promise to David that Judah would remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36; Jer. 25:12)

There were conditions associated with that promise in 1 Kings 11:38. Solomon did not keep integrity and lost the promises.

"38 And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee."
​

The 70 year item in Jeremiah 25:12 was God proclaiming His judgment against Babylon. You are drawing implications from that about the people of Judah. I much prefer to take things into consideration that do not require inferrences that have no explicit support. Ezekiel chapter 4 is where God explicitly lays out His judgment against the two kingdoms. The northern kingdom was 390 years and the souther kingdom was 40 years. However, since the northern kingdom had not reformed themselves and turned back to the Lord, their judgment was multiplied by 7 in accordance to the law in Leviticus 26. This means the same thing as "forever" in that it is implied to only be "to the end of the age". This was the northern kingdom's cup. And, the Lord made no differentiation when He said Judah would be given the same cup.

2,730 years takes you to the end of the age when a new creation would be brought to be, which is the Day 1 when BOTH Israel and Judah would be gathered together and God's Kingdom would be established with the fruit of the body of David being the tabernacle of flesh God Himself would come to His people personally. And, althrough He would be of David's offspring, His tribal lineage shall be of the House of Joseph. This great prophet and seer and "one like unto Moses" is who shall gather all 12 tribes of Israel and be their king and their shepherd.

We are grateful to Israel and sorry that God's judgment which was supposed to come upon us lighted on Israel, albeit because of David. (Isa. 9:8). (I Kings 11;36) We have already mourned for Israel as one mourns for his firstborn son who has died. (Zech. 12:10) We are sorry for Israel. But Israel is gone and we are here. And according to Ezekiel, that's it. We shall be no more two nations or two kingdoms but one single People under the hegemony of Judah. (Ezek. 37:19,22)

You don't seem to understand. Aholah's cup was put into your hands. That means you bore your own sins and now you bear hers too. And, you shall continue to bear them until you are received into the Kingdom of God that the Shiloh Messiah shall assemble.

We don't need them anymore to return to our homeland. We have been back already since 62 years ago. Now, we need them only to pay for all the expenses to rebuild our Temple, just as Persia did with the second Temple. Especially Britain that, to please the Arabs, caused the death of many of our People trying to escape Hitler.

Ben, you ought to be highly embarrassed to say such a thing. You have Britain to thank that you even have a homeland to start with. Now you want them to build you your temple too? When are you going to get off of your victim complex as Leviticus tells you to do?

We have done it all.

As evidenced from above, you have not.

Do you mean to tell me you and some of your fellow Jewish people have the position to demand hand-outs?

You are still holding out your hand expectantly when your punishments have been from the instrumentality of your own God. He said so Himself. The only way anyone would be responsible to fund the building of your temple is if God orders them to do it just as Cyrus was ordered to.

Now, that Ephraim no longer exists

You are 100% wrong here. Are you not aware that the vast majority of Mormons go to their patriarch and receive their patriarchal blessings in which they are identified as to which tribe they are from and that well over 95% of the LDS people are ascribed to the tribe of Ephraim? And, are you unaware that the American continent has been given to Joseph and his sons for their land of inheritance?

You have a lot of waking up to do.

, all of the above means just Judah, which is called by the new name of Israel, but that came forth from the waters of Judah. Read Isaiah 48:1.

You are having a wet dream Ben.

There you go again with statements against nature and against the Scriptures. I have told you more than several times that bodily resurrection is a myth of Gentiles.

I agree a misconception has become established about what resurrection actually is. Christians will hate me for what I am about to say but to me it is the only way I can reconcile everything. Jesus was physically resuscitated and spiritually resurrected. His resuscitation was to stand as a representation of His future physical resurrection in the flesh, which happens "from seed" rather than some hokus-pokus unnatural process.

Our concept of resurrection is metaphorical in the words of Ezekiel 37:12.

You don't yet see the big picture of it all.

We are no longer in exile. Isaiah says that even if we were as the sand of the sea, only a small remnant shall return to the Land of our forefathers. We are back already. Hallo! Wake up and watch the news. (Isa. 10:21,22)

You are indeed physically gathering but you have yet to be given into the hand of your enemies yet. That is what you are in the process of right now. And, the northern kingdom has been gathering in America (Zion) and we are in the same process right now of being overcome by our enemy. We are both going to suffer a horrible calamity before our punishment is complete and we are fully eligible for redemption. So, yes, you are gathering, but it's far from over. Remember, you have our cup to share in. When America goes down, so too shall the State of Israel.

Both of us shall have to rebuild from the ashes of our ruins.

That's not I the one who wants. They are the prophets and even Jesus himself who said in his Sermon of the Mount that we are the light of the world. (Mat. 5:14)

He said they are given to be the light of the earth. And, when we have finally completed our punishments and we are in the very beginning of a new creation on Day 1, we shall be. And, all of your righteous and noble forefathers who have sacrificed so much to keep us a live seed shall receive their individual resurrection and partake in that glory with us, provided you and I survive to be the seedstock of the new creation to come.

 

[stupified]

The more we learn, the less Gods we seem to have (historically speaking). We are now down to one. Almost there. We have come far. We have a bit more to learn about the big bang.

 

[Thief]

The more we learn, the less Gods we seem to have (historically speaking). We are now down to one. Almost there. We have come far. We have a bit more to learn about the big bang.

Check around these threads.....you will find....

at least one discussion that puts God before the big bang.

"Let there be light".

Light did not create itself.

All things at rest remain at rest until Something moves them.

 

[stupified]

Check around these threads.....you will find....

at least one discussion that puts God before the big bang.

"Let there be light".

Light did not create itself.

All things at rest remain at rest until Something moves them.

Have you ever heard of popcorn matter? Or the pressure in the vaccuum? Newton's laws are violated all the time. In fact, there is no upper bound on both the size and duration that these particles (mass) come into existence, and some speculate that the big bang was just one of these regular popcorn particles (if given an infinite time, one that big and for that long was bound to appear). It is a daily occurance.

 

[Thief]

Have you ever heard of popcorn matter? Or the pressure in the vaccuum? Newton's laws are violated all the time. In fact, there is no upper bound on both the size and duration that these particles (mass) come into existence, and some speculate that the big bang was just one of these regular popcorn particles (if given an infinite time, one that big and for that long was bound to appear). It is a daily occurance.

Science can't go back to the big bang.
No equations allowed.
No experiment to contain the specimen.

Spirit first.

 

[stupified]

But all the big bang is is a spontaneous creation of matter. It happens all the time. And there is no statistical upper bound for both the size and the duration that this matter can pop into existence. It is the reality. Given enough time, a big particle can come into existence. It is just very statistically unlikely. But given enough time...

 

[Thief]

But all the big bang is is a spontaneous creation of matter. It happens all the time. And there is no statistical upper bound for both the size and the duration that this matter can pop into existence. It is the reality. Given enough time, a big particle can come into existence. It is just very statistically unlikely. But given enough time...

You're not really focused.

No time is involved.

The singularity cannot be approached by science.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Science can't go back to the big bang.
No equations allowed.
No experiment to contain the specimen.

Spirit first.

Define Spirit?

 

[839311]

Well, my dear hosts, you have become famous for the cliche that God does not exist. I have news for you. I am ready to become an Atheist. Yes, just like you; as soon as you tell me where the Universe comes from. I mean, how the Universe came about without a Creator or the Primal Mover, to coin Philosophical rhetoric.

No problem.

First, I want to make sure that we are not talking about just our own universe, but the entire cosmos. Many physicists, including me (no Im not a physisict), believe that there are more universes out there. Im convinced that the number of universes is infinite.

So if we are talking about the cosmos, or reality, or exitence in its entirety, then I don't believe it came from anywhere. To phrase the question like that is already problematic, because it assumes an origin of some kind. Im convinced that the stuff of which our reality is made is eternal - having no begin, and having no end. It must be this way. The math works. The logic works. And the alternative is ridiculous. The alternative being that stuff just appears out of nowhere, from nothing, and without any cause. Completely ridiculous. 0 + 0 = 0. If you have only nothing, a complete void, then nothing will happen. Ever.

Heres the kicker! The reason why stuff exists, is because it is the nature of reality to be this way. Nothing more.

A sound explanation for the cosmos, without the need stretch ourselves and resort to 'God did it'.

 

[lunakilo]

The singularity cannot be approached by science.

Who says it was a singulatity?

 

[LuisDantas]

Thief, you can speculate whatever scenarios you want. Matters of faith are just like that.

When push comes to shove, however, it takes the scientific method to reach conclusions and beliefs that are reliable.

 

[Ben Masada]

No problem.

First, I want to make sure that we are not talking about just our own universe, but the entire cosmos. Many physicists, including me (no Im not a physisict), believe that there are more universes out there. Im convinced that the number of universes is infinite.

Sorry, but I missed to include in my thread that non-proved theories don't count. The concept of multi-universes is still a theory which could die before it becomes a fact.
Unless you are referring to gallaxies. Yes, there are many gallaxies, but all parts of the same universe. I mean the entire cosmos. Besides, God the Creator is not part of the universe but apart from it. The universe is composed of matter and God is a Spiritual Being and Incorporeal at that. The universe cannot be eternal. God is.

So if we are talking about the cosmos, or reality, or exitence in its entirety, then I don't believe it came from anywhere.

Philosophers are learnt people; even wise without necessarily have learnt. Aristotle could never conceive that something could have come out of nothing. Matter, by definition is under the law of genesis and destruction. Since the universe is made out of matter, it obviously must have had a beginning.

To phrase the question like that is already problematic, because it assumes an origin of some kind.

As you can see, the fallacy of an eternal universe is shocking within your own rationalization, as you have confessed the problematic of the issue in some corner of your own mind.

Im convinced that the stuff of which our reality is made is eternal - having no begin, and having no end. It must be this way. The math works. The logic works. And the alternative is ridiculous. The alternative being that stuff just appears out of nowhere, from nothing, and without any cause. Completely ridiculous. 0 + 0 = 0. If you have only nothing, a complete void, then nothing will happen. Ever.

And so do I. But eternity is restricted to the Supreme Reality Which had made possible all realities. Now, anyone without atheistic pre-conceived notions can see that you are contradicting yourself. You claim the ridiculous thought that something should have come from nothing, and without cause, but with the same breath claim that matter had no beginning and therefore will have no end. That's a theory that Scientists can never prove. Today that the Cosmos is crowded with matter that is born and die, as has been scientifically proved by the death of stars, the alternative of the Philosophical Primal Cause/Mover is not so ridiculous after all.

Heres the kicker! The reason why stuff exists, is because it is the nature of reality to be this way. Nothing more.

And here is the kick-back: The Suprime Reality has created the nature by which all stuff exist.

A sound explanation for the cosmos, without the need stretch ourselves and resort to 'God did it'.

Not every one can claim the same kind of reality. Pharaoh Akhenaten could never conceive the reality of the Unseen God of the Patriarchs. But he was inspired by the Israelite Monotheism, to reform the religion in Egypt by reducing the Egyptian pantheon of gods to the one but visible Sun god. There are people whose reality are too relative and restricted to the eyes of the flesh. I know that's kind of hard to conceive the Absolute Spiritual Reality, but if you can't stretch your mind that high, at least, the benefit of the doubt should be given the chance.