Fighting Two Fronts

[Ben Masada]

Ben,

Please do not assume what I immediately think of in terms of religion without knowing very much about me. I'm aware of monotheistic, polytheistic, pantheistic, deistic, panentheistic, and monistic god concepts.

The anthropomorphizing I'm witnessing is having to do with words like "creator" that you specifically used. It doesn't matter if the creator is separate from, encompassing, or equivalent to the universe for it to possibly be an example of anthropomorphism.

What proof can you offer that it has always existed? And if you say this is true regarding your god, I could propose the same thing about physical existence.

I have told you above, let us keeping researching. Learning is all that life is about. What you don't know today about the origin of the universe, you might know after another 50 years or so. By then, I might be able to provide you with the proofs for the eternal existence of God.
Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

That's not entirely accurate. You need to digress further.
Atheists are sure regarding proven processes and observations as they are presented, but not in way of speculation obviously. Second, your referring to atheists and then for a reason or other referencing the universe itself as a creation.

You need to address as to where the certainty lies in way of a mutual foundation and see where the subject can be taken. If you hope for any value to this particular debate you need to first start on mutual grounds and proceed in terms all can relate and see with. Otherwise this simply stays biased.

Everything is speculation. Nobody is sure of anything. That's what I read from them everywhere.
Ben

 

[Penumbra]

We are only debating beliefs for the sake of debate. I don't care even a bit if you or anyone else is interested or not in sharing my beliefs. I am well aware that Jews don't proselytize. And the main reason is that we don't have anything to offer to any one in the afterlife but to turn into dust. (Eccl. 12:7)

If you don't have anything to offer in the afterlife, do you have something to offer in this life?

I have told you above, let us keeping researching. Learning is all that life is about. What you don't know today about the origin of the universe, you might know after another 50 years or so. By then, I might be able to provide you with the proofs for the eternal existence of God.
Ben

Sure, new information is useful and can lead to different conclusions.

 

[Ben Masada]

Actually, I'm self-taught in philosophy and the rare times in which I express other peoples' views I quote them. I'm not trying to impress others -- you ask why I'm on this forum and then attempt to answer the question for yourself (you assume I'm here for S&G's).

If you're curious, I'm here because I recognize the possibility that someone does know -- that someone does have a justification for making assertions for which I on my own can't find any justification. I'm here to learn and to teach in turn; and to figure out what people know, how they know it, and why they believe things.

Even if neither of us knows, silence isn't always the best option. The point of debate is to inspect someone else's idea and to have them inspect yours. Hopefully, both people will learn and grow from the experience -- at least that's the way I see it.

It doesn't "satisfy my ego" for you to say you don't know how God created the universe because this isn't about my ego, and hopefully it isn't about yours either. This is about what we know and how we know it, and what we can do about increasing our knowledge.

That being said, I don't think you've gone far enough in admitting what you don't know: you're still asserting a creator-being exists at all, but I haven't seen any justification for that assertion. If you want, we can talk about that: what leads you to believe a creator-being exists?

Creation is the best evidence of the Creator. Read Psalm 19:1. I think David knew a little better than you and I to say that the universe declares the glory of God; and it shows His handiwork.
Ben

 

[Penumbra]

Creation is the best evidence of the Creator. Read Psalm 19:1. I think David knew a little better than you and I to say that the universe declares the glory of God; and it shows His handiwork.
Ben

I think David knew a lot less about the universe because he lived thousands of years ago.

 

[Ben Masada]

For the record I don't look at God anthropomorphically. Usually the God I spend the most time studying is the theologian's ontologically necessary, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent God.

See what I mean? We are not in the same page. That's not the God I am tallking about. Your "omnibenevolent" god lacks nothing of anthropomorphism, because benevolence is an emotion present on the heart of charitable people. God is not like a man to be moved by the emotion of benevolence. My God is Incorporeal, therefore, destitute of emotions whatsoever.
Ben

 

[Meow Mix]

See what I mean? We are not in the same page. That's not the God I am tallking about. Your "omnibenevolent" god lacks nothing of anthropomorphism, because benevolence is an emotion present on the heart of charitable people. God is not like a man to be moved by the emotion of benevolence. My God is Incorporeal, therefore, destitute of emotions whatsoever.
Ben

So, I take it you don't worship the Old Testament God of wrath and fury and brimstone? I find it hard to swallow that a Jew doesn't worship the OT God, for one; or alternatively a Jew who does worship the OT God but declares it to be without emotion when the OT states a billion times how wrathful and petty said God is.

 

[Ben Masada]

In my opinion it is logically impossible to dismiss an axiom because I think an axiom in the sense that we are discussing is something that is from the eye of the beholder. So if I consider something to be an axiom, then I already feel that the claim is so self evident that I treat it as truth. It's logically impossible for me to dismiss something I believe in this instant to be truth.

But I can dismiss your axioms all day long if I wish, because I may or may not view your truths as truth myself. When I look at the Universe I don't think that everything I see suggests the existence of a creator. So I have no trouble dismissing the claim without providing a replacement.

On the same breath, I, likewise dismis your axioms, and in the same terms, "all day long" because, when I look at the universe and consider the work of its Creator, the moon and the stars which He has ordained, I wonder what is man that He, somehow, is mindful of him, as to provide naturally for his existence. (Psalm 8:3,4)
Ben

 

[Masourga]

The fact that the universe is here and has substance, proves to me that it has ALWAYS been here. There has always been substance. Nothing/no One created it. It simply always has been.

Why is that so hard an idea for us, as a race of beings, to accept? Honestly, it boggles my mind that so many people are hung up on the idea of a creator.

And then, of course, there's the question of, even if there is a God, who created him? You're argument is that something can't exist without a creator... then neither can God, can He? Where is the most fundamental level? Where does it end? Creator after creator after creator? Or is the most fundamental level simply all that we see around us? The universe as it exists, and always has existed.

 

[Ben Masada]

If you don't have anything to offer in the afterlife, do you have something to offer in this life?

Yes, I do, and by the way a lot of almost a few things, spiritually and materially, all depending on the receiver side of the things I have to offer in this life.
Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

The fact that the universe is here and has substance, proves to me that it has ALWAYS been here. There has always been substance. Nothing/no One created it. It simply always has been.

Why is that so hard an idea for us, as a race of beings, to accept? Honestly, it boggles my mind that so many people are hung up on the idea of a creator.

And then, of course, there's the question of, even if there is a God, who created him? You're argument is that something can't exist without a creator... then neither can God, can He? Where is the most fundamental level? Where does it end? Creator after creator after creator? Or is the most fundamental level simply all that we see around us? The universe as it exists, and always has existed.

I deny the eternity of the universe with all the strength of my soul. The universe is made out of matter. Matter has not always existed. I am sorry if you or anyone else choose to consider me a moron, but I can't think of the universe as other than creation. Logically, creation reports back to a Creator. And regarding your question about who created the Creator it is too childish, no offense meant, because you give me the impression of an anthropomorphic creator. The Creator I believe in is Spirit, Incorporeal and immortal. Eternal, in other words. Therefore, there is no point to question who created the creator. According to almost all Philosophers, especialy the classical ones, going back in the chain of creation, one must eventually arrive at the Primal Mover or Primal Cause. So, there is no use to even start the game.
Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

I think David knew a lot less about the universe because he lived thousands of years ago.

But he enjoyed the inspiration of eternity that we can hardly count with. To get there, we must apply our intellect to research and study.
Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

So, I take it you don't worship the Old Testament God of wrath and fury and brimstone? I find it hard to swallow that a Jew doesn't worship the OT God, for one; or alternatively a Jew who does worship the OT God but declares it to be without emotion when the OT states a billion times how wrathful and petty said God is.

That's not the God reported by the Tanakh, but the god in your mind when you read it, if you ever read it, or hear from religious defenders of anthropomorphism, whose intent is to mislead the public as they try to make a living our of the naive ones of this world. I wonder how someone being a Cosmologist can't see the difference between metaphorical and literal interpretation of a text.
Ben

 

[Masourga]

I deny the eternity of the universe with all the strength of my soul.

You seriously need to try and write with less drama. It really makes you sound childish, in my opinion. As if you just learned lots of fancy and prose-sounding words you just can't wait to use.

It is, quite honestly, no skin off my back whether or not you can't part with the idea that some thing created the universe. My best guess is that you're probably wrong... hell, I'm likely wrong. But my idea in this arena will always sound, to me, ludicrously more plausible than some over-seeing force or the hand of some other-worldly artisan having created any of it. The universe is. It's rules are. In my opinion, there is no force that can change that, nor does there need to be. If anything, the universe, itself IS the over-seeing authority. Time will come and go for any being within it's dominion, but it will withstand it all, and has for all of eternity, if I had my guess.

No sentience, no will, no remorse. Just pure, undeniable, natural law.

 

[Penumbra]

I deny the eternity of the universe with all the strength of my soul. The universe is made out of matter. Matter has not always existed. I am sorry if you or anyone else choose to consider me a moron, but I can't think of the universe as other than creation. Logically, creation reports back to a Creator. And regarding your question about who created the Creator it is too childish, no offense meant, because you give me the impression of an anthropomorphic creator. The Creator I believe in is Spirit, Incorporeal and immortal. Eternal, in other words. Therefore, there is no point to question who created the creator. According to almost all Philosophers, especialy the classical ones, going back in the chain of creation, one must eventually arrive at the Primal Mover or Primal Cause. So, there is no use to even start the game.
Ben

It makes sense to question everything. Simply because you believe the creator is spirit, incorporeal, immortal, and eternal doesn't give you a free pass when it comes to questioning.

But he enjoyed the inspiration of eternity that we can hardly count with. To get there, we must apply our intellect to research and study.
Ben

He was a poet and a leader and a warrior, etc. There's nothing in particular I look up to him about. I have other role models.

Yes, I do, and by the way a lot of almost a few things, spiritually and materially, all depending on the receiver side of the things I have to offer in this life.
Ben

To clarify, I didn't mean "you" as in Ben. I meant "you" in the context to mean Jews.

You said that Jews don't proselytize because they have no afterlife to offer. So my question, in response to that, was to ask you what you do have to offer. As in, what does your religion, or you as Jews (rather than simply as people with your own unique talents), have to offer? What does your god have to offer?

 

[Penumbra]

That's not the God reported by the Tanakh, but the god in your mind when you read it, if you ever read it, or hear from religious defenders of anthropomorphism, whose intent is to mislead the public as they try to make a living our of the naive ones of this world. I wonder how someone being a Cosmologist can't see the difference between metaphorical and literal interpretation of a text.
Ben

So what does it mean when Joshua metaphorically committed genocide in the name of his deity?

 

[Ben Masada]

You seriously need to try and write with less drama. It really makes you sound childish, in my opinion. As if you just learned lots of fancy and prose-sounding words you just can't wait to use.

It is, quite honestly, no skin off my back whether or not you can't part with the idea that some thing created the universe. My best guess is that you're probably wrong... hell, I'm likely wrong. But my idea in this arena will always sound, to me, ludicrously more plausible than some over-seeing force or the hand of some other-worldly artisan having created any of it. The universe is. It's rules are. In my opinion, there is no force that can change that, nor does there need to be. If anything, the universe, itself IS the over-seeing authority. Time will come and go for any being within it's dominion, but it will withstand it all, and has for all of eternity, if I had my guess.

No sentience, no will, no remorse. Just pure, undeniable, natural law.

It was for your credit that you did not finish two sentences above, as others, besides myself, I am sure think the same. "The universe is" indeed God's creation. "Its rules are" indeed the tools used by God to keep the universe running properly. In the meantime, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37 Israel will remain as People before the Lord forever, as the manifestation of God's glory in the sight of the nations. (Ezek. 20:41)
Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

It makes sense to question everything. Simply because you believe the creator is spirit, incorporeal, immortal, and eternal doesn't give you a free pass when it comes to questioning.

Go ahead, keep the questions coming. I also ask questions. The problem is that I don't get answers.

He was a poet and a leader and a warrior, etc. There's nothing in particular I look up to him about. I have other role models.

Good girl! I also have other role models, although they are not the same as yours. Have you ever heard about Moses Maimonides? He is one of them. Another is Baruch de Spinoza, and others.

To clarify, I didn't mean "you" as in Ben. I meant "you" in the context to mean Jews.

I know ma'am, but I am sure you can take a joke or two.

You said that Jews don't proselytize because they have no afterlife to offer. So my question, in response to that, was to ask you what you do have to offer. As in, what does your religion, or you as Jews (rather than simply as people with your own unique talents), have to offer? What does your god have to offer?

We have everything you need in terms of instructions on how to enjoy your life while you live. Isaiah says that many among the nations will look up to Jerusalem when they need instructions about the Truth. "To Zion" he said, which is a synonym for the Jewish People. (Isa. 2:2,3) It is not hard to understand that, considering how Jews are heavily represented among the Intellectuals of this world. I bet you agree with me. Also Zechariah says that many from among the Gentiles will reach for the garment of the Jews and ask these to accept those, since they have finally acknowledged that God is with us. (Zech. 8:23)

 

[Ben Masada]

So what does it mean when Joshua metaphorically committed genocide in the name of his deity?

That was a trend of the time. The Israelites under Joshua were not the only nomadic people in search of a more permanent place to set in. A number of different groups would stroll around dispossessing other peoples from their dwellng places, killing all to avoid a future possible contra-revolution, and taking over their cities. The Hitites, the Canaanites, the Fenitians, and many others were doing the same. I think Joshua was quite benevolent to have allowed most of the Canaanites to remain where they were. A mistake which would cause much a suffering to the Israelites later. I wish it hadn't to be that way; but, I am sure, they had no other choice. Surprised that I didn't bring in the God I believe in to justify Joshua's actions? As you can see, I don't believe in the anthropomorphic god of Christianity.
Ben

 

[Penumbra]

Go ahead, keep the questions coming. I also ask questions. The problem is that I don't get answers.

What haven't you received an answer to here?

Good girl! I also have other role models, although they are not the same as yours. Have you ever heard about Moses Maimonides? He is one of them. Another is Baruch de Spinoza, and others.

Yes, I've read of them.

I know ma'am, but I am sure you can take a joke or two.

If I had thin skin I'd be bent out of shape by you calling me "good girl".

We have everything you need in terms of instructions on how to enjoy your life while you live. Isaiah says that many among the nations will look up to Jerusalem when they need instructions about the Truth. "To Zion" he said, which is a synonym for the Jewish People. (Isa. 2:2,3) It is not hard to understand that, considering how Jews are heavily represented among the Intellectuals of this world. I bet you agree with me. Also Zechariah says that many from among the Gentiles will reach for the garment of the Jews and ask these to accept those, since they have finally acknowledged that God is with us. (Zech. 8:23)

I agree that Jews are heavily represented among the intellectuals of the world. I don't, however, particularly look up to Jews when it comes to instructions on truth or life. I don't look up to any particular group in fact. Particular people, sure, but not groups. The Jews don't stand out in my view as a group to follow, and I do not acknowledge that they have any existent deities "with" them.

What is your explanation when terrible things happen to people? Perhaps they are born and then die as children of hunger. Or maybe born with a genetic defect. Or something bad happens to them against their will, like being raped or gruesomely murdered, or losing an only child or something like that. Or the Holocaust.

I'm not saying I have something to offer those people. All we can do is to work to make sure that stuff happens as little as possible. But when someone claims to have a deity with them, I'd expect some action. Religions that believe in heaven or reincarnation at least give themselves some wiggle room by saying "well, that's not the end of them". But if you both believe in your god and disbelieve in an afterlife, then it seems your god is somewhat lacking in terms of assisting with human flourishing.