Fighting Two Fronts

[averageJOE]

I can hold on to the idea that the universe has "always exsisted" or "created itself" the same way a theist can hold the belief that god has "always exsisted" or "created "itself".

If the universe needs a creator then a god needs to have some type of begining also. How was god created?

 

[Penumbra]

That was a trend of the time. The Israelites under Joshua were not the only nomadic people in search of a more permanent place to set in. A number of different groups would stroll around dispossessing other peoples from their dwellng places, killing all to avoid a future possible contra-revolution, and taking over their cities. The Hitites, the Canaanites, the Fenitians, and many others were doing the same. I think Joshua was quite benevolent to have allowed most of the Canaanites to remain where they were. A mistake which would cause much a suffering to the Israelites later. I wish it hadn't to be that way; but, I am sure, they had no other choice. Surprised that I didn't bring in the God I believe in to justify Joshua's actions? As you can see, I don't believe in the anthropomorphic god of Christianity.
Ben

According to the narrative, they used their god to justify their actions. And by what measure can Joshua be called benevolent? He slaughtered men, women, and children.

Saying something akin to "they did it to" in reference to the other groups of people during that time period does nothing to justify the actions of the Israelites. It only goes to show that gods had no part in this. It was just ancient people being violent towards each other.

 

[Ben Masada]

What haven't you received an answer to here?

About the origin of the universe.

I agree that Jews are heavily represented among the intellectuals of the world. I don't, however, particularly look up to Jews when it comes to instructions on truth or life. I don't look up to any particular group in fact. Particular people, sure, but not groups. The Jews don't stand out in my view as a group to follow, and I do not acknowledge that they have any existent deities "with" them.

Once Mark Twain was asked if he believed in God. He answered and said that the Jewish People are a live evidence of God's existence. He must be a good example within the "particular people" you would look up to. Would you believe him?

What is your explanation when terrible things happen to people? Perhaps they are born and then die as children of hunger. Or maybe born with a genetic defect. Or something bad happens to them against their will, like being raped or gruesomely murdered, or losing an only child or something like that. Or the Holocaust.

Nothing to do with God. They just happened to be caught up on the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm not saying I have something to offer those people. All we can do is to work to make sure that stuff happens as little as possible. But when someone claims to have a deity with them, I'd expect some action.

Thank you! That's exactly what we are all expected to do: God's work, and not expect that a miracle will happen. Aha! You are commiting the same Atheistic mistake of the others: An anthropomorphic deity to interfere with man's freewill.

Religions that believe in heaven or reincarnation at least give themselves some wiggle room by saying "well, that's not the end of them". But if you both believe in your god and disbelieve in an afterlife, then it seems your god is somewhat lacking in terms of assisting with human flourishing.

Did you see above when I thanked you? I meant for your understanding that we are the ones supposed to do God's works by helping and preventing that bad things should happen to each other. Waiting that an anthropomorphic god should run in for the rescue, is even a sin against moral ethics.
Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

I can hold on to the idea that the universe has "always exsisted" or "created itself" the same way a theist can hold the belief that god has "always exsisted" or "created "itself".

If the universe needs a creator then a god needs to have some type of begining also. How was god created?

If God was created, He would not be a Creator. He would never classify for the Primal Mover or Primal Cause of the Philosophers.
Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

According to the narrative, they used their god to justify their actions. And by what measure can Joshua be called benevolent? He slaughtered men, women, and children.

Saying something akin to "they did it to" in reference to the other groups of people during that time period does nothing to justify the actions of the Israelites. It only goes to show that gods had no part in this. It was just ancient people being violent towards each other.

They all would use their own gods to be more successful in their endeavor. If the actions of the Israelites was justified or not, it had to be their heads or the heads of the others. What would you choose if you were one among those Israelites? Only the one who wear the shoes can tell where the shoes hurt. Oh yes, I am glad you are learning faster than I thought. God indeed had nothing to do with what was happening. Yes, just ancient people being violent towards each other. Congratulations!
Ben

 

[Meow Mix]

If God was created, He would not be a Creator. He would never classify for the Primal Mover or Primal Cause of the Philosophers.
Ben

As I've explained, "Primal Cause" arguments have hidden assumptions which aren't justified. You don't seem comfortable with abandoning those unwarranted assumptions (or attempting to justify them), so there's no much I can say to help you.

 

[LuisDantas]

We are only debating beliefs for the sake of debate. I don't care even a bit if you or anyone else is interested or not in sharing my beliefs. I am well aware that Jews don't proselytize. And the main reason is that we don't have anything to offer to any one in the afterlife but to turn into dust. (Eccl. 12:7)

You sure give the impression that you care a great deal about people's belief in God (or lack of same). If it is debate you want instead, I suggest going a bit slower and paying more attention to Penumbra and Meow Mix.

 

[averageJOE]

If God was created, He would not be a Creator. He would never classify for the Primal Mover or Primal Cause of the Philosophers.
Ben

And that is my question to you. Why do you not apply the same questions about the universe's beginnings to your god?

 

[Penumbra]

About the origin of the universe.

You've received multiple answers regarding the origin of the universe. And most of them have been pretty similar: "I don't know".

Unanswered questions are better than unquestioned answers. I could just say, "the universe has always existed, and don't question me" but I'm not going to do that. If that's what you're looking for here, you're likely going to go wanting.

Once Mark Twain was asked if he believed in God. He answered and said that the Jewish People are a live evidence of God's existence. He must be a good example within the "particular people" you would look up to. Would you believe him?

Not really, no. For people I look up to, I don't let their answers substitute for my own answers.

Nothing to do with God. They just happened to be caught up on the wrong place at the wrong time.

Thank you! That's exactly what we are all expected to do: God's work, and not expect that a miracle will happen. Aha! You are commiting the same Atheistic mistake of the others: An anthropomorphic deity to interfere with man's freewill.

Did you see above when I thanked you? I meant for your understanding that we are the ones supposed to do God's works by helping and preventing that bad things should happen to each other. Waiting that an anthropomorphic god should run in for the rescue, is even a sin against moral ethics.
Ben

They all would use their own gods to be more successful in their endeavor. If the actions of the Israelites was justified or not, it had to be their heads or the heads of the others. What would you choose if you were one among those Israelites? Only the one who wear the shoes can tell where the shoes hurt. Oh yes, I am glad you are learning faster than I thought. God indeed had nothing to do with what was happening. Yes, just ancient people being violent towards each other. Congratulations!
Ben

This is basically a summary of what you've presented:

-The universe cannot have always existed or have come from nothing. (Asserted without support.)
-God, however, has always existed, and he created the universe. (Asserted without support.)
-Despite referring to your god as creator, you claim that your god is not anthropomorphized.
-There is no afterlife, and don't look for god to do miracles.

In what way is your god relevant? In what way does he add to the conversation at all? What questions does your worldview answer? How is the existence of your god different from if your god did not exist? You criticize atheists for not being able to explain where the universe came from, and yet you suppose that god doesn't require an explanation. There hasn't been anything offered here.

 

[Falvlun]

I can't think of the universe as other than creation. Logically, creation reports back to a Creator.

Suppose I claim that Mt. Everest required a builder.
You rightly respond: "That's absurd! Mt. Everest is a natural rock formation. It was formed by plate tectonics, not a builder."
I retaliate with: "But Mt. Everest is a building. Thus, obviously it required a builder."

Is this a convincing argument, or is it just redefining things so that they support my original thesis? Do I have any proof that Mt. Everest is a building, and not simply a natural rock formation?

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

I can hold on to the idea that the universe has "always exsisted" or "created itself" the same way a theist can hold the belief that god has "always exsisted" or "created "itself".

If the universe needs a creator then a god needs to have some type of begining also. How was god created?

Asking who created God is not mentally accepted( as monotheist) !

The believers 23:91. No son did God beget,
Nor is there any god
Along with Him: (if there were
Many gods), behold, each god
Would have taken away
What he had created,
And some would have
Lorded it over others!
Glory to God! (He is free)
From the (sort of) things
They attribute to Him!

Please do not submit The concept of God to the time.

Because berfore action is done it needs time to be done.

but God is eternal,He does not need time to create any thing, because he is not submited to time.

have you heard of "The seven sleepers", they selpt over 300 years and when they waked up they thought that they spent one day or less sleeping in a cave.

I agree with Ben that any thing in world needs a creator, but when it Comes to God it ends with the Idea that threre is only one God one creator to the universe.

Ok ben, that will make the figth more brutal

 

[averageJOE]

Asking who creted God is not mentally accepted( as monotheist) !

It is mentally accetable and it is a question that I am aking.

The believers 23:91. No son did God beget,
Nor is there any god
Along with Him: (if there were
Many gods), behold, each god
Would have taken away
What he had created,
And some would have
Lorded it over others!
Glory to God! (He is free)
From the (sort of) things
They attribute to Him!

Please do not submit The concept of God to the time.

Because berfore action is done it needs time to be done.

but God is eternal,He does not need time to create any thing, because he is not submited to time.

have you heard of "The seven sleepers", they selpt over 300 years and when they waked up they thought that they spent one day or less sleeping in a cave.

I agree with Ben that any thing in world needs a creator, but when it Comes to God it ends with the Idea that threre is only one God one creator to the universe.

Ok ben, that will make the figth more brutal

Your basically saying god doesn't have a creator because the quran says so, that the quran says that god is eternal, and that's good enough for you. That's why for you it "ends with the IDEA that there is only one god one creator to the universe". Not a tested theory, but an idea based on ancient writings in a book.

But when it comes to the beginings of the universe scientists, agnostics, atheists will honestly say "I don't know". But for them it doesn't end there. They will continue to search and search.

So I'll ask again; how was god created? If you don't know just say so.

 

[crimsonlung]

It is mentally accetable and it is a question that I am aking.


Your basically saying god doesn't have a creator because the quran says so, that the quran says that god is eternal, and that's good enough for you. That's why for you it "ends with the IDEA that there is only one god one creator to the universe". Not a tested theory, but an idea based on ancient writings in a book.

But when it comes to the beginings of the universe scientists, agnostics, atheists will honestly say "I don't know". But for them it doesn't end there. They will continue to search and search.

So I'll ask again; how was god created? If you don't know just say so.

Frubals, never thought to look at it from this angle, Where did god come from? Was it another god that created him? Did he create himself?

 

[Masourga]

It was for your credit that you did not finish two sentences above, as others, besides myself, I am sure think the same. "The universe is" indeed God's creation. "Its rules are" indeed the tools used by God to keep the universe running properly. In the meantime, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37 Israel will remain as People before the Lord forever, as the manifestation of God's glory in the sight of the nations. (Ezek. 20:41)
Ben

Right, right... I'm happy for you that you think so. Hoorah.... blah.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

It is mentally accetable and it is a question that I am aking.


Your basically saying god doesn't have a creator because the quran says so, that the quran says that god is eternal, and that's good enough for you. That's why for you it "ends with the IDEA that there is only one god one creator to the universe". Not a tested theory, but an idea based on ancient writings in a book.

But when it comes to the beginings of the universe scientists, agnostics, atheists will honestly say "I don't know". But for them it doesn't end there. They will continue to search and search.

So I'll ask again; how was god created? If you don't know just say so.

If you are the owner of a shop.
and a stranger invaded your shop and told the people that he is the owner of this shop, and he decided to donate the properties of this shop to the poors without your approval, would you let him behave as he like? :sleep:

Allah told us in Qura'an

The Crowds 39:62

62. Allah is the Creator
Of all things, and He
Is the Guardian and Disposer
Of all affairs.

If there was another God, would he let Allah mention this verse to the world (that he is the creater of all things).

I think if there any God beside him, there would be dispute between them for declaring such a thing.

therefore I told you it's not mentally accepted.

 

[LuisDantas]

Mohammed Beiruti, aren't you ultimately simply claiming that God has the privilege of not needing a creator? If you can claim such a privilege for God, why can't you or anyone else claim the same privilege for the Universe as a whole? Or even better, simply admit that the origin of the Universe is unknown?

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Mohammed Beiruti, aren't you ultimately simply claiming that God has the privilege of not needing a creator? If you can claim such a privilege for God, why can't you or anyone else claim the same privilege for the Universe as a whole? Or even better, simply admit that the origin of the Universe is unknown?

the universe needs a creator, we can ask the queation of " Who created the universe?"

and the logical answer(to me) is that God who created universe.

let me give you an exapmle:

"if you was in a room, the room contains a desk , and there was a book on that desk.

if you went out of the room for 5 minutes , and you returned back, aftre that you found the book on the floor.
the logical question would come up to your mind is "who moved the book and let it fell on the floor?"


But when you ask "Who created God?".

this will not make a sense.

that means there is more than one God ( atribe of gods), and there would be dispute between them concerning the power.

 

[averageJOE]

If you are the owner of a shop.
and a stranger invaded your shop and told the people that he is the owner of this shop, and he decided to donate the properties of this shop to the poors without your approval, would you let him behave as he like? :sleep:

Allah told us in Qura'an

The Crowds 39:62

62. Allah is the Creator
Of all things, and He
Is the Guardian and Disposer
Of all affairs.

If there was another God, would he let Allah mention this verse to the world (that he is the creater of all things).

I think if there any God beside him, there would be dispute between them for declaring such a thing.

therefore I told you it's not mentally accepted.

Again, this is just a bunch of nothing. The question is not "mentally accepted" to YOU because you are satisfied with what is written in an ancient book. That'a why it "ends with you". Fortunatly that is not the case with scientists and other great minds of the world, they like to persue knowledge and keep searching for answeres and challenge ideas.

the universe needs a creator, we can ask the queation of " Who created the universe?"

and the logical answer(to me) is that God who created universe.

let me give you an exapmle:

"if you was in a room, the room contains a desk , and there was a book on that desk.

if you went out of the room for 5 minutes , and you returned back, aftre that you found the book on the floor.
the logical question would come up to your mind is "who moved the book and let it fell on the floor?"


But when you ask "Who created God?".

this will not make a sense.

that means there is more than one God ( atribe of gods), and there would be dispute between them concerning the power.

This is akin to the Watchmaker story which has been debunked hundreds of times. The question wasn't "who created god?" but was "HOW was god created?" Just say you don't know.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Fighting on two fronts is a bad idea, when you can't even win on one.

 

[Autodidact]

Fighting Two Fronts

Turnorburn, I am here. Just happened to arrive. But I am neither for you nor for Atheists. Although my double-edged sword can cut both ways, I need no Christian help with Atheists. So, if you can't take the heat, you might choose now to leave the kitchen, before the cooking starts.

Well, my dear hosts, you have become famous for the cliche that God does not exist. I have news for you. I am ready to become an Atheist. Yes, just like you; as soon as you tell me where the Universe comes from. I mean, how the Universe came about without a Creator or the Primal Mover, to coin Philosophical rhetoric.

And please, do not discard my question as nonsense or tell me that you don't know, because Atheism itself will lose all its raison d'etre. One cannot discard an axiom if he can't replace it with an option. If you choose to look at my question as too simplistic, you might take that way out, as long as you leave with it; and I mean, leave and not live.

There are two psalms for Atheists in the Bible, which the Psalmist, ironically, wrote twice, ipsisssima verba. By mistake or on purpose, I'll let you figure. They are Psalms 14 and 53. But I believe the Psalmist's message is for Atheists who have no option to God's non-existence.

Well, you are in. Let us get down to business about the issue of the Universe without a Creator, will ya?

Ben

Current evidence suggests that the universe may be eternal, and doesn't come from anywhere; it only changes according to the laws of nature.

"I don't know" is a better answer than, "A magic person magicked it 6000 years ago, and made a garden and a tree..."

“He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors”


--Thomas Jefferson