Fighting Two Fronts

[LuisDantas]

the universe needs a creator, we can ask the queation of " Who created the universe?"

Sure we can ask that. It does not necessarily follow that the question makes sense, however. If there is a need for a Creator to the Universe, I'm afraid I just can't figure out why it would be so.

and the logical answer(to me) is that God who created universe.

If you say so. It seems to me that this is not a matter of logic but rather of aesthetic preference, however. Appeal to a Creator God, by definition, is not a matter of logic.

let me give you an exapmle:

"if you was in a room, the room contains a desk , and there was a book on that desk.

if you went out of the room for 5 minutes , and you returned back, aftre that you found the book on the floor.
the logical question would come up to your mind is "who moved the book and let it fell on the floor?"

Why are you using an example of things known to be created by people, if your aim is to illustrate some point about the origin of things known not to be created by people? I don't see how it could be useful.

But when you ask "Who created God?".

this will not make a sense.

Indeed, it doesn't. Appealing to God often involves giving up reason.

that means there is more than one God ( atribe of gods), and there would be dispute between them concerning the power.

Who knows? Maybe God is beyond such petty desires. After all, there are people who manage it, so why not God.

Or maybe God does not exist.

 

[JustWondering]

I am ready to become an Atheist. Yes, just like you; as soon as you tell me where the Universe comes from. I mean, how the Universe came about without a Creator or the Primal Mover, to coin Philosophical rhetoric.

The universe and everything in it simply exists. Since matter does not pop into or out of existence (in my experience) I would think it logical that the universe and everything in it has always existed. I suppose a powerful being could create life or shape the universe in certain ways but I have not seen any evidence to indicate that such a being exists. Hope you enjoy being an Atheist.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Again, this is just a bunch of nothing. The question is not "mentally accepted" to YOU because you are satisfied with what is written in an ancient book. That'a why it "ends with you". Fortunatly that is not the case with scientists and other great minds of the world, they like to persue knowledge and keep searching for answeres and challenge ideas.

This is akin to the Watchmaker story which has been debunked hundreds of times. The question wasn't "who created god?" but was "HOW was god created?" Just say you don't know.

"God was created" , that means at a point of time he was "nothing" and then he became God.

Do you agree with me ?

 

[Ben Masada]

As I've explained, "Primal Cause" arguments have hidden assumptions which aren't justified. You don't seem comfortable with abandoning those unwarranted assumptions (or attempting to justify them), so there's no much I can say to help you.

Yes, there is if you proof to me that you have a more powerful mind than those of the classic Philosophers. If they could not digress back beyond the Primal Mover, This might have meant Something significant to them, as they never stopped their research of the Unknown.
Ben:

 

[Ben Masada]

Fighting on two fronts is a bad idea, when you can't even win on one.

What front are you? Just tell me and I will point my spear at your direction.
Ben

 

[Jacksnyte]

The universe and everything in it simply exists. Since matter does not pop into or out of existence (in my experience) I would think it logical that the universe and everything in it has always existed. I suppose a powerful being could create life or shape the universe in certain ways but I have not seen any evidence to indicate that such a being exists. Hope you enjoy being an Atheist.

Have you read much on quarks? They appear to pop in and out of existence.:nightcraw:

 

[Ben Masada]

The universe and everything in it simply exists. Since matter does not pop into or out of existence (in my experience) I would think it logical that the universe and everything in it has always existed. I suppose a powerful being could create life or shape the universe in certain ways but I have not seen any evidence to indicate that such a being exists. Hope you enjoy being an Atheist.

You are way out of position to target me. The universe is made out of matter. This cannot have come out of the hat of the magician. Aristotle made it very clear at his time, which still is proved today that something cannot come out of nothing. Science has proved that matter in the universe experiences genesis and destruction.
Birth and death, as we have the scientific affirmation about death of stars. Nothing with that characteristic cannot exist for eternity. Only the Creator, or Primal Mover does. You haven't seen any evidence that such a being exist. Can you read? David, who I think, knew a little better than you and I, declared that the universe shows God's handiwork. (Psalm 19:1) But if you want someone elsed a little more modern than David, once Einstein was asked if he believed in God, he answered and said that all his lie was to catch God at His work of creation. Then, he stood up and went out to deliver a lecture about the expansion of the universe. Did you know that Science has proved that the universe expands? It could be God at His work of creation. Can you prove otherwise?
Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

Current evidence suggests that the universe may be eternal, and doesn't come from anywhere; it only changes according to the laws of nature.

"I don't know" is a better answer than, "A magic person magicked it 6000 years ago, and made a garden and a tree..."

“He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors”


--Thomas Jefferson

Where did you get the idea that a "magic person magicked the creation of the universe and made a garden and a tree?" Someone who told you about an anthropomorphic god or that's your way to interpret the Scriptures? I can see how far you are of the truth.

Nothing can be eternal but the Creator of the universe. The Genesis account of Creation is an allegory which must be interpreted metaphorically. Are you able to that much? If you are not, just don't assume that things must be eternal because you don't know anything about it, and would like to bet your two-pence in opinions.
Ben

 

[Kilgore Trout]

What front are you? Just tell me and I will point my spear at your direction.
Ben

Your weapon, like your arguments, have been obsolete for quite some time.

 

[Ben Masada]

Suppose I claim that Mt. Everest required a builder.
You rightly respond: "That's absurd! Mt. Everest is a natural rock formation. It was formed by plate tectonics, not a builder."
I retaliate with: "But Mt. Everest is a building. Thus, obviously it required a builder."

Is this a convincing argument, or is it just redefining things so that they support my original thesis? Do I have any proof that Mt. Everest is a building, and not simply a natural rock formation?

Two points in this post of yours would have no power in my acceptance of the truth. First, because I know that Mt. Everest is a natural rock formation formed by plate tectonics. Second, that the person who is supposing that Mt. Everest required a builder is Falvlun, someone whom I do not know the abc about him.
Ben

 

[PolyHedral]

Aristotle made it very clear at his time, which still is proved today that something cannot come out of nothing.

Quantum Physics shows that this is false. Your entire argument is invalid.

 

[Autodidact]

You are way out of position to target me. The universe is made out of matter. This cannot have come out of the hat of the magician. Aristotle made it very clear at his time, which still is proved today that something cannot come out of nothing. Science has proved that matter in the universe experiences genesis and destruction.
Birth and death, as we have the scientific affirmation about death of stars. Nothing with that characteristic cannot exist for eternity. Only the Creator, or Primal Mover does. You haven't seen any evidence that such a being exist. Can you read? David, who I think, knew a little better than you and I, declared that the universe shows God's handiwork. (Psalm 19:1) But if you want someone elsed a little more modern than David, once Einstein was asked if he believed in God, he answered and said that all his lie was to catch God at His work of creation. Then, he stood up and went out to deliver a lecture about the expansion of the universe. Did you know that Science has proved that the universe expands? It could be God at His work of creation. Can you prove otherwise?
Ben

We do not know whether the universe ever came into existence. Many scientists believe it did not, but always existed.

 

[Meow Mix]

Yes, there is if you proof to me that you have a more powerful mind than those of the classic Philosophers. If they could not digress back beyond the Primal Mover, This might have meant Something significant to them, as they never stopped their research of the Unknown.
Ben:

You're fallaciously arguing from authority here, though.

I don't have a more powerful mathematical mind than Newton, but that didn't stop him from dabbling in alchemy pseudoscience, did it?

The classic philosophers' argument for a primal mover is sound iff there was an ontological beginning of the universe. They never bothered to support that assumption because they assumed that no actual infinities could exist (similar to William Lane Craig's arguments regarding time). However, those assumptions aren't sound, nor are they justified.

 

[Ben Masada]

You've received multiple answers regarding the origin of the universe. And most of them have been pretty similar: "I don't know".

...and absolutely not satisfactory.

Unanswered questions are better than unquestioned answers. I could just say, the universe has always existed, and don't question me, but I'm not going to do that. If that's what you're looking for here, you're likely going to go wanting.

Of that I am sure.

Not really, no. For people I look up to, I don't let their answers substitute for my own answers.

Perhaps you have crossed the the line of no return.

This is basically a summary of what you've presented:

At least, that much you know.

The universe cannot have always existed or have come from nothing. (Asserted without support.)

You are mistaken. Aristotle is my support. And Moses Maimonides too.

-God, however, has always existed, and he created the universe. (Asserted without support.)

Prove that I am wrong.

-Despite referring to your god as creator, you claim that your god is not anthropomorphized.

True. Could man have created the universe? You are learning.

-There is no afterlife, and don't look for god to do miracles.

Not too far from being a nice Jewish guirl. You make me glad.

In what way is your god relevant? In what way does he add to the conversation at all?

He created the universe; otherwise, you did not exist yourself. What a pit!

What questions does your worldview answer? How is the existence of your god different from if your god did not exist?

The universe would not exist.

You criticize atheists for not being able to explain where the universe came from, and yet you suppose that god doesn't require an explanation. There hasn't been anything offered here.

It has. Now, you are underestimating what we have achieved so far. God is absolutely One, Spirit and Incorporeal. (John 4:22)

Ben

 

[JustWondering]

You are way out of position to target me. The universe is made out of matter. This cannot have come out of the hat of the magician. Aristotle made it very clear at his time, which still is proved today that something cannot come out of nothing.

So we agree on this point then? Matter has always existed.

Science has proved that matter in the universe experiences genesis and destruction. Birth and death, as we have the scientific affirmation about death of stars. Nothing with that characteristic cannot exist for eternity. Only the Creator, or Primal Mover does.

Matter just exists, period. The universe just exists, period. There is no need for a invisible magical creator god. The god you speak of is not observable, cannot be interacted with, and is likely the production of an ancient superstitous man's overactive imagination. Unless of course you have undeniable evidence that YOUR god exists?

You haven't seen any evidence that such a being exist. Can you read? David, who I think, knew a little better than you and I, declared that the universe shows God's handiwork. (Psalm 19:1) But if you want someone elsed a little more modern than David, once Einstein was asked if he believed in God, he answered and said that all his lie was to catch God at His work of creation. Then, he stood up and went out to deliver a lecture about the expansion of the universe. Did you know that Science has proved that the universe expands? It could be God at His work of creation. Can you prove otherwise?
Ben

I don't have to prove anything, I'm not the one making claims that an invisible uber being is responsible for creating life and the universe, you are. Perhaps you could share with us how you came to believe so strongly that this god character exists?

 

[JustWondering]

Prove that I am wrong.

Yea, prove that his imaginary friend does not exist. Lol

 

[Ben Masada]

You're fallaciously arguing from authority here, though.

I don't have a more powerful mathematical mind than Newton, but that didn't stop him from dabbling in alchemy pseudoscience, did it?

The classic philosophers' argument for a primal mover is sound iff there was an ontological beginning of the universe. They never bothered to support that assumption because they assumed that no actual infinities could exist (similar to William Lane Craig's arguments regarding time). However, those assumptions aren't sound, nor are they justified.

The man simply had his hobby at dabbling in Alchemy; what does it have to do with the Primal Mover of the Classic Philosophers? And you seem to be a psychic reader of their minds to decided that they were simply assuming and didn't bother to support their assumption. I say that they wouldn't go further than their "Primal Mover" because they wouldn't dare to step in sacred realm. See how easy is to assume?
Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

Yea, prove that his imaginary friend does not exist. Lol

Read Psalm 19:1. "The universe shows God's handiwork." David. Are you going to tell me that David was going crazy?
Ben

 

[JustWondering]

Read Psalm 19:1. "The universe shows God's handiwork." David. Are you going to tell me that David was going crazy?
Ben

L. Ron Hubbard said evil alien spirits are the cause of mental illness. Are you going to tell me L. Ron Hubbard was crazy?

 

[Ben Masada]

So we agree on this point then? Matter has always existed.

No, we do not. You still have to prove your assertion.

Matter just exists, period. The universe just exists, period. There is no need for a invisible magical creator god. The god you speak of is not observable, cannot be interacted with, and is likely the production of an ancient superstitous man's overactive imagination. Unless of course you have undeniable evidence that YOUR god exists?

There you come again with your modern superstitions. You can't prove anything only your faith in the universe as if it was a god.

I don't have to prove anything, I'm not the one making claims that an invisible uber being is responsible for creating life and the universe, you are. Perhaps you could share with us how you came to believe so strongly that this god character exists?

You are the one claiming that the universe always existed for eternity. You are only denying Science itself that the universe is made out of matter that experiences birth and death, like death of stars and expansion of the universe.

Ben