First person shooter video games

[Quagmire]

Snark aside, physical violence (ie punching/kicking) is more common on school grounds, then gun shootings. Shootings get attention because they often kill.

U.S. schools - physical fights among students, by ethnicity 2019 | Statista

Point is, I don't think there's ever been an incident of anybody walking into a shopping mall and beating a dozen people to death with their fists.

And yeah, (snark aside), if anything, sports --- even violent sports like football, boxing, wrestling, etc, -- help kids develop qualities that would would probably make them less likely to go off the rails like that.

One thing most mass shooters seem to have in common is that they're socially isolated, and emotionally repressed.

Most jocks aren't.

 

[Quagmire]

• On average, nearly 20 people per minute are physically abused by an intimate partner in the United States. During one year, this equates to more than 10 million women and men.
• 1 in 4 women and 1 in 9 men experience severe intimate partner physical violence, intimate partner contact sexual violence, and/or intimate partner stalking with impacts such as injury, fearfulness, post-traumatic stress disorder, use of victim services, contraction of sexually transmitted diseases, etc.
  • 1 in 3 women and 1 in 4 men have experienced some form of physical violence by an intimate partner. This includes a range of behaviors (e.g. slapping, shoving, pushing) and in some cases might not be considered "domestic violence."
  • 1 in 7 women and 1 in 25 men have been injured by an intimate partner.
  • 1 in 10 women have been raped by an intimate partner. Data is unavailable on male victims.
• 1 in 4 women and 1 in 7 men have been victims of severe physical violence (e.g. beating, burning, strangling) by an intimate partner in their lifetime.
• 1 in 7 women and 1 in 18 men have been stalked by an intimate partner during their lifetime to the point in which they felt very fearful or believed that they or someone close to them would be harmed or killed.
• On a typical day, there are more than 20,000 phone calls placed to domestic violence hotlines nationwide.

Cool. Can you show me some stats demonstrating how many of the perpetrators involved played violent sports in school?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Cool. Can you show me some stats demonstrating how many of the perpetrators involved played violent sports in school?

Football and Wrestling have ties to heightened aggression
Effects of participation in sports on men's aggressive and violent behaviors
Participants of contact sports more likely to commit violence off-field
The psychology of violence in sports

Point being that our society does in fact have a serious "punching problem" - properly identified as a problem with physical violence and aggression.

 

[Quagmire]

Football and Wrestling have ties to heightened aggression
Effects of participation in sports on men's aggressive and violent behaviors
Participants of contact sports more likely to commit violence off-field
The psychology of violence in sports

Point being that our society does in fact have a serious "punching problem" - properly identified as a problem with physical violence and aggression.

Ah OK, cool.

I guess we should be concerned about both issues then (gun violence and fist/foot violence).

I don't think it's helpful to bring up one in order to deflect from the other though.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I don't think it's helpful to bring up one in order to deflect from the other though.

Not to deflect, but to point to the underlying issues in both. Video games aren't the problem; they can be a catalyst, but the problem goes deeper in terms of mental health, toxic masculinity, and a society that harbors both without ever properly addressing them.

 

[The Hammer]

Not to deflect, but to point to the underlying issues in both. Video games aren't the problem; they can be a catalyst, but the problem goes deeper in terms of mental health, toxic masculinity, and a society that harbors both without ever properly addressing them.

Bingo

 

[Debater Slayer]

On the subject of violent games more broadly than just the first-person variety, I recall this statement from Rockstar in 2010:

Rockstar: Only "Terrible Parents" Buy Our Games for Their Kids

“Our games are not designed for young people,” said Lazlow Jones, who hooked up with Rockstar in 2001 by writing and performing in radio segments in Grand Theft Auto 3. “If you’re a parent and buy one of our games for your child, you’re a terrible parent.”

“We design games for adults because we’re adults,” he continued. “There’s a lot of kids’ games out there that we’re not interested in playing. Just like you enjoy watching movies and TV shows with adult themes and language and violence, that’s the kind of thing we seek to produce.”

He claimed that despite its reputation, Rockstar gets relatively little “pushback” from rating boards, although he noted that the videogame industry in general faces far greater challenges than other media when it comes to producing mature content. “If you tell a gritty crime drama with violence and profanity and call it The Sopranos you’re handed a load of awards to put up on the shelf,” he said. “You do the same and call it a videogame and you’ll have certain organizations up in arms.”

So, yes, I agree that it can be harmful when kids play violent games, but that's not because video games are inherently harmful or likely to lead to real-world violence when used as intended; it's because of disregard for age ratings that also apply to movies and other media.

 

[Quagmire]

Not to deflect, but to point to the underlying issues in both. Video games aren't the problem;

There is no "the problem".

And if there is any "the problem" I think "the problem" is the fact that people keep looking for "the problem" instead trying to taking take into consideration any and all elements that may or may not be contributing factors when it comes to gun violence.

they can be a catalyst, but the problem goes deeper in terms of mental health, toxic masculinity, and a society that harbors both without ever properly addressing them.

It's all of these things and probably a lot of other things.

 

[Quagmire]

I find it rather odd that the same people who want to ban guns, blame guns, etc stand up for FPS games that their soul purpose is mas shooting and killing.

I know what you mean. It's sort of like the way that hyper-liberal, anti-gun Hollywood, keeps churning out movies where one guy with a gun (or usually several guns) is setting the world to rights by blowing the **** out of everybody in sight.

 

[Revoltingest]

"The meta-analysis does tie violent video games to a small increase in physical aggression among adolescents and preteens."

^ This doesn't seem to be as big of an issue as this below.

"Results showed that only football players and wrestlers were significantly more likely to get involved in a serious fight than other athletes. In fact, they were 40% more likely to be aggressive, even off the field. Athletes of other sports showed no association with aggression."

Are Certain Sports Making My Teen Aggressive?.

I think we should be more wary of violent sports, which increase violence much more significantly. These actually train you to actually be able to hit people, and efficiently.

Funny thing that you mention football players
& wrestlers. (Hockey players would be included.)
They are the worst tenants a landlord can rent to.
After some experiences, I began refusing to rent
to them. This is legal....& profitable. Those groups
are the most violent, destructive, entitled, irresponsible
people on the planet.
Surprisingly good tenants....law school students.
Responsible, dedicated, & they honor the agreements
they sign & actually understand.

 

[Revoltingest]

I was still typing my answer to @We Never Know's first post, to which I replied, when he posted the second source.

And while this new source (article) supports his thesis, I question whether the studies do. And, as the article admits, I'm not the only one. We'd have to look at the methods of the underlying studies of the meta study to find their flaws.
Some possible flaws: badly randomized samples, measuring elevated aggression without a cool-off period (you'll also have more aggression after a squash match), no or bad comparison groups, bad maths (statistical analysis). And I'm not overly critical here as such flaws have been found in such studies.

I'd expect there to be some de-sensitizing to violence
when people play a lot of violent games. The extent
of it....that's above my pay grade.

 

[SomeRandom]

On the subject of violent games more broadly than just the first-person variety, I recall this statement from Rockstar in 2010:

Rockstar: Only "Terrible Parents" Buy Our Games for Their Kids



So, yes, I agree that it can be harmful when kids play violent games, but that's not because video games are inherently harmful or likely to lead to real-world violence when used as intended; it's because of disregard for age ratings that also apply to movies and other media.

I grew up playing the GTA franchise. Thanks to a family friend who was tech savvy
My mother despises Rockstar. My father found their games amusing but was too old to really “get” either side of the violent video game debate that consumed pop culture back in the day.

I have yet to turn into a violent sociopath.
I blame my uncle, constantly playing his mind tricks on me. Using his therapy training to talk to me about issues.
Curse him!

 

[Debater Slayer]

I find it rather odd that the same people who want to ban guns, blame guns, etc stand up for FPS games that their soul purpose is mas shooting and killing.

I know what you mean. It's sort of like the way that hyper-liberal, anti-gun Hollywood, keeps churning out movies where one guy with a gun (or usually several guns) is setting the world to rights by blowing the **** out of everybody in sight.

I want to give my perspective on this, since I love horror movies (which are probably the most violent movie genre) and a lot of violent games but also believe in strict gun laws.

The way I see this, the main issue is the distinction between fiction and reality: I fasten my seat belt and ask my Uber to slow down when they speed, but I play racing games where I try to break speed records and bump into walls like a maniac. I can barely handle the sight of a deep wound in real life, but I love playing GTA and causing chaos in the city while shooting pedestrians.

None of the fictional depictions harm anyone, whereas real guns can. It's also why I'm fine with watching movies where some giant monster kills thousands of civilians but sometimes become distressed if I read news about real natural disasters or war.

 

[SomeRandom]

I'd expect there to be some de-sensitizing to violence
when people play a lot of violent games. The extent
of it....that's above my pay grade.

Like if you watch Braveheart too many times you get desensitised to historical figures getting hung drawn and quartered?

All this talk about desensitisation of violence due to media. Of course an issue. I agree

I have to wonder though. Back when we actually did those things for spectacle or shows of strength, did people become just as desensitised? Did it happen sooner for them since they saw it in the flesh, so to speak?

I recently saw the much beloved Tollywood movie RRR with my mum. A bromance to end all bromances, with violent spectacle that makes the James Bond franchise seem realistic in comparison. But it just embraced it for the fun of it.
Even with all the hyperbole, it wasn’t exactly lying about the treatment the British empire inflicted upon Indians back in the early 20th century. Like that’s just historical record. And it’s a legacy absolutely drenched in blood. The only difference between that and the movie is, honestly, everyone involved were ultimately safe and likely remained friends after shooting. The real life people the characters were based on were not so lucky.

 

[Revoltingest]

Which I think is something we should take a look at if our society ever develops a mass puncher problem.

If one watches youtube videos of cops,
the mass puncher problem is real.

Gaming, cop culture, football...any group
that continually exposes itself to an
environment of violence with impunity
will be at higher risk of wrongful violence.
IMO.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Gaming, cop culture, football...any group
that continually exposes itself to an
environment of violence with impunity
will be at high risk of wrongful violence.
IMO.

Two of the three groups you listed are exposed to real violence, while one (gamers) are merely exposed to CGI depictions of it behind a screen.

I think that's a key difference, and whether such exposure leads to a "high risk of wrongful violence" is measurable. It's not a matter of personal opinion.

 

[Revoltingest]

Two of the three groups you listed are exposed to real violence, while one (gamers) are merely exposed to CGI depictions of it behind a screen.

How are you certain that pretend violence
won't have the same effect to some extent?

I think that's a key difference, and whether such exposure leads to a "high risk of wrongful violence" is measurable. It's not a matter of personal opinion.

US military branches use video games to train
soldiers. I'm skeptical of claims that this isn't
going to somewhat inure soldiers to killing too
easily.
Note that I'm not opposing violent video games.
Just objecting to claims they have no deleterious
effects.

 

[Debater Slayer]

How are you certain that pretend violence
won't have the same effect to some extent?

I'm not certain; I'm just going by the current lack of solid evidence. My view is open to change if or when such evidence exists.

US military branches use video games to train
soldiers. I'm skeptical of claims that this isn't
going to somewhat inure soldiers to killing too
easily.
Note that I'm not opposing violent video games.
Just objecting to claims they have no deleterious
effects.

Your skepticism is understandable and reasonable. I have had the same question a lot, myself, especially as a gamer. But I hope the current evidence showing no causal link between the two stands the test of time and further research, because it would be bad if such a widespread entertainment medium became a possible source of aggression.

 

[Quagmire]

I want to give my perspective on this, since I love horror movies (which are probably the most violent movie genre) and a lot of violent games but also believe in strict gun laws.

The way I see this, the main issue is the distinction between fiction and reality: I fasten my seat belt and ask my Uber to slow down when they speed, but I play racing games where I try to break speed records and bump into walls like a maniac. I can barely handle the sight of a deep wound in real life, but I love playing GTA and causing chaos in the city while shooting pedestrians.

None of the fictional depictions harm anyone, whereas real guns can. It's also why I'm fine with watching movies where some giant monster kills thousands of civilians but sometimes become distressed if I read news about real natural disasters or war.

Society is shaped by the stories it tells itself.

Here's my take on the message in almost all of the shoot-em-up movies these days is, "If you have a problem with another human being;

--- Don't call the police. They'll either be unable to help because their hands are tied by our ineffectual legal system,
or they'll be unwilling to help due to laziness, cowardness, or because they're in on it.

--- Don't try to talk things out with your opponents: every single human confrontation comes down to kill or be killed. Don't be killed.

--- If a few innocent bystanders get blown away, don't worry it's for a good cause.

--- the more violent and destructive you are the more likely it is you'll walk away hand in hand with a scantily clad supermodel when it's all over.


Putting aside what kind of an affect all this has on a typical 14-year-old male psyche (Hollywood's primary target audience) there's no denying that it's the most prevalent theme in movies these days.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not certain; I'm just going by the current lack of solid evidence. My view is open to change if or when such evidence exists.



Your skepticism is understandable and reasonable. I have had the same question a lot, myself, especially as a gamer. But I hope the current evidence showing no causal link between the two stands the test of time and further research, because it would be bad if such a widespread entertainment medium became a possible source of aggression.

We did see a link showing correlation.