First person shooter video games

[Debater Slayer]

Society is shaped by the stories it tells itself.

Here's the my take on the message in almost all of the shoot-em-up movies these days is, "If you have a problem with another human being;

--- Don't call the police. They'll either be unable to help because their hands are tied by our ineffectual legal system,
or they'll be unwilling to help due to laziness, cowardness, or because they're in on it.

--- Don't try to talk things out with your opponents: every single human confrontation comes down to kill or be killed. Don't be killed.

--- If a few innocent bystanders get blown away, don't worry it's for a good cause.

--- the more violent and destructive you are the more likely it is you'll walk away hand in hand with a scantily clad supermodel when it's all over.


Putting aside what kind of an affect all this has on a typical 14-year-old male psyche (Hollywood's primary target audience) there's no denying that it's the problem thing themr in movies these days.

Yeah, I find a lot of themes in movies questionable as well. I think it's understandable to be leery of them, although I haven't seen strong evidence linking them to real violence. I maintain my skepticism but remain uncertain.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You are too young but I can remember when cigarettes didnt have health warnings on them because they were thought not to be dangerous.

Remember candy cigarettes?

Oh the memories!

 

[Debater Slayer]

We did see a link showing correlation.

And a few others showing none. The APA also linked video games to bullying in some cases, not gun violence.

In such situations, I tend to remain open to changing my mind but also lean toward the majority opinion of experts.

 

[SomeRandom]

We did see a link showing correlation.

Correlation is not causation.
I could theoretically show a correlation between gun violence and reading history. Doesn’t necessarily mean that historians are gonna go around shooting people though

 

[Revoltingest]

Correlation is not causation.

We all know that.
But research on effects of gaming
is in its infancy. We will see.

I could theoretically show a correlation between gun violence and reading history. Doesn’t necessarily mean that historians are gonna go around shooting people though

We must face the possibility that there
could be a causative effect of playing
violent video games.
Denial of that possibility is too certain.
But don't worry...I've no plans to ban
such games...even if they're shown to
make people more violent. Liberty
trumps security.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Remember candy cigarettes?

Oh the memories!

Popeye's candy cigarettes! They were pretty close to chalk. They had bubble gum ones too.

I just came across a post on Facebook that showed this toy kit for kids in the 70's I think it was. It came with a pack of bubble gum cigarettes, a little fake plastic lighter with a bulb that lights up and a "lighter battery" that says "It really works!"
The caption was something like "Now you can be just like Mom and Dad!"

 

[SomeRandom]

We all know that.
But research on effects of gaming
is in its infancy. We will see.

We have been “waiting to see” for like 3 to 4 decades at this point. By the time we “figure it out for good” we will have a new scapegoat for people to lament over for leading our youth astray.

I’m all for researching the effects in great detail. I think we absolutely need to research everything and anything.
But like this is testing people’s patience, ngl. And indeed games are no more violent than books, movies or tv shows.
Where’s all the research into their causal factor into human violence?
What about the causal factors in the wars humans fought before most of that was even invented?
Research it all, I say!!

We must face the possibility that there
could be a causative effect of playing
violent video games.
Denial of that possibility is too certain.

We must also face a possibility that maybe humans are not as innately innocent as we claim to be? Maybe games are just an easy way to shift blame and avoid actually taking responsibility for our own actions?
That eagerness to deny our own harsh reality can influence such results found by studies. Or at least influence how we perceive them

 

[Revoltingest]

We have been “waiting to see” for like 3 to 4 decades at this point.

I'm willing to wait more before
making proclamations about it.

By the time we “figure it out for good” we will have a new scapegoat for people to lament over for leading our youth astray.

Perhaps.
But waiting & researching
will continue anyway.

I’m all for researching the effects in great detail. I think we absolutely need to research everything and anything.
But like this is testing people’s patience, ngl. And indeed games are no more violent than books, movies or tv shows.

I see a big difference with video games,
ie, they have active participation.

Where’s all the research into their causal factor into human violence?

I don't know.
Never looked into it.
(Because I care very little.)

What about the causal factors in the wars humans fought before most of that was even invented?

Those factors are still with us.
Violent video games are the new kids.

We must also face a possibility that maybe humans are not as innately innocent as we claim to be? Maybe games are just an easy way to shift blame and avoid actually taking responsibility for our own actions?
That eagerness to deny our own harsh reality can influence such results found by studies. Or at least influence how we perceive them

That's all above my pay grade.
I don't even play video games.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why weren't the then warnings on them years ok?

Put it together.

The original DOOM (or maybe it was Quake, this has been a long time) did have a violence and graphic images warning thing on it, something that looked like a thermometer if I'm remembering right, and it was before the required ESRB ratings existed.

 

[SomeRandom]

I'm willing to wait more before
making proclamations about it.

As am I. I’m not really on “either side” of this necessarily. (I just really like playing devils advocate, if I’m honest)
I think we need to establish whether this is actually a causal factor, and whether this factor is independent or part of a larger picture, so to speak. And I think it needs to be accomplished through peer reviewed “proper” scientific research. No agendas, as little bias as possible and through means that render the best most accurate results possible.

Perhaps.
But waiting & researching
will continue anyway.

Agreed

I see a big difference with video games,
ie, they have active participation.

Plays also have active participation. Arguably even moreso than games, since you’re literally experiencing a play in real life, in real time. Even as an audience member
Do I need to bring up the passion plays again? Plays from medieval times that sought to emphasise the suffering of Christ in graphic explicit detail.
Even more so than Mel Gibson did.
And again, the wildly successful Passion of the Christ movie, which was exceptionally graphically violent, was largely based on the aforementioned passion tradition.
Did those plays of old cause people to go out and torture others?
I mean the audience were likely highly involved in the dramatic recreation, even as a mere audience member. And that is a tradition that lasted decades and even longer if I recall my history class correctly.

How about literature? The Libertine movement, which was a literal actual movement of very extreme hedonists that lasted a couple centuries, all produced books and plays that are all accepted as classical literary canon.
Do I really need to explain the plot of 120 Days of Sodom? And how graphically violent it actually is?
Gaming doesn’t really have an equivalent to that yet and that book was written in the late 1700s by a hedonist who’s bedroom escapades could put most BDSM places to shame, irl.
I mean geez, he’s the literal namesake for the word “sadism” in the English language (fun fact!) Guess what that bloke was into!
I think he even wrote it in a prison cell.
I could use such examples to make a correlation between classical literature and violence.
Does that mean all literature professors are secretly mass murderers on the side? I mean just look at what they have to read, study and even teach!!

I don't know.
Never looked into it.
(Because I care very little.)

Those factors are still with us.
Violent video games are the new kids.

The new scapegoat you mean?
I grew up among art teachers and the like. Games are largely tame by comparison to other media. Like not even kidding.
Even “foreign cinema” is often far harsher a lot of the time.

That's all above my pay grade.
I don't even play video games.

Well I grew up on the medium. As I did reading books, reading/watching plays, movies and tv shows. All the while constantly evaluating, interpreting and analysing them from many angles.
This “games cause violence” dialogue merely elicits eye rolls from me at this point. Not because I think it is totally without merit, but because it is ultimately and utterly shallow. All in all.
It’s no different from the Satanic Panic. Please enlighten me as to the academic and scientific merits of that specific analysis. Please! I’m beyond curious

 

[Revoltingest]

Plays also have active participation. Arguably even moreso than games, since you’re literally experiencing a play in real life, in real time. Even as an audience member

I'll wager that acting (including rehearsal) in a
play consumes less time than do video games.
But an extremely violent play could have that
effect to some extent, although it would be
more repetitive (in the sense of 1 scenario
over & over) than a game. And far fewer
people act in plays than play video games.

Do I need to bring up the passion plays again? Plays from medieval times that sought to emphasise the suffering of Christ in graphic explicit detail.

Religion does indeed appear to inspire
violence.

Did those plays of old cause people to go out and torture others?
I mean the audience were likely highly involved in the dramatic recreation, even as a mere audience member. And that is a tradition that lasted decades and even longer if I recall my history class correctly.

Again, I'd expect problems there involve
religion, not necessarily acting in a play.

How about literature? The Libertine movement, which was a literal actual movement of very extreme hedonists that lasted a couple centuries, all produced books and plays that are all accepted as classical literary canon.

Don't forget comic books. But those are passive,
unlike video games are more active.
So I would equate them as risk factors of violence.

Do I really need to explain the plot of 120 Days of Sodom? And how graphically violent it actually is?

I'm unfamiliar....but would it serve a useful
purpose to give me plotlines from violent
literature? We needn't cover such things.
And it would be interminable.

Gaming doesn’t really have an equivalent to that yet and that book was written in the late 1700s by a hedonist who’s bedroom escapades could put most BDSM places to shame, irl.
I think he even wrote it in a prison cell.
I could use such examples to make a correlation between classical literature and violence.
Does that mean all literature professors are secretly mass murderers on the side? I mean just look at what they have to read, study and even teach!!




The new scapegoat you mean?
I grew up among art teachers and the like. Games are largely tame by comparison to other media. Like not even kidding.
Even “foreign cinema” is often far harsher a lot of the time.


Well I grew up on the medium. As I did reading books, reading/watching plays, movies and tv shows. All the while constantly evaluating, interpreting and analysing them from many angles.
This “games cause violence” dialogue merely elicits eye rolls from me at this point. Not because I think it is totally without merit, but because it is ultimately and utterly shallow. All in all.
It’s no different from the Satanic Panic. Please enlighten me as to the academic and scientific merits of that analysis. Please!

I'm repeating myself a wee bit
too much. And the questions seem
rhetorical. I've nothing to add.

 

[SomeRandom]

I'll wager that acting (including rehearsal) in a
play consumes less time than do video games.
But an extremely violent play could have that
effect to some extent, although it would be
more repetitive (in the sense of 1 scenario
over & over) than a game. And far fewer
people act in plays than play video games.
.

You’ve clearly never been involved in theatre!
Pah!

Religion does indeed appear to inspire
violence..

Perhaps.
I could point to other excessively violent plays unrelated to religion. Ever hear of the Restoration movement? Religions is another convenient scapegoat but it’s not the only factor in art either

Again, I'd expect problems there involve
religion, not necessarily acting in a play..

And again I could point to plays wholly devoid of religion that involve recreations of extremely graphic violence that were popular

Don't forget comic books. But those are passive,
unlike video games are more active.
So I would equate them as risk factors of violence..

Don’t forget that they used comic books to illustrate why the youth of the 1930s were being corrupted and becoming violent.
Hays Code anyone?
I’m sensing a pattern here
Hmm
History repeats itself?

I'm unfamiliar....but would it serve a useful
purpose to give me plotlines from violent
literature? We needn't cover such things.
And it would be interminable..

Why? We’re focussing excessively on the supposed illustrated violence found in FPS games, even though that is merely only one factor in a much broader medium. It’s not even the main factor in video games as a whole. Which is merely just another avenue to tell stories which relate to humanity. You know? Like art does and has done for thousands upon thousands of years?
How is it the developers fault that human history and blood soaked violence have traditionally gone hand in hand?
(With or even without religion interfering.)

I'm repeating myself a wee bit
too much. And the questions seem
rhetorical. I've nothing to add.

Very well. If your choice is to refrain from any rebuttal. So be it
(I’m just kidding. Chill)

 

[Quagmire]

@The Kilted Heathen
@SomeRandom

You guys keep using scapegoat like it's a sneeze and you have a cold.

I'm curious: who, in your opinion, in this thread is scapegoating this issue and to what end?

[quote = dictionary] 'scape·goat
/ˈskāpˌɡōt/

noun

1. 1.
   a person who is blamed for the wrongdoings, mistakes, or faults of others, especially for reasons of expediency"

Far as I can see nobody in this thread is making any claims about any of this. People are just speculating, and that seems to be what you're really objecting to for some reason.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

You guys keep using scapegoat like it's a sneeze and you have a cold.
I'm curious: who, in your opinion, in this thread is scapegoating this issue and to what end?

I feel I was pretty clear in stating that Conservatives (a generality, to be sure) are prone to use video games (and other media "influences" like metal and rap that have equally no evidence to strongly support) as a scapegoat, rather than facing up to failing healthcare and economic issues contributing to violence and crime.

 

[SomeRandom]

@The Kilted Heathen
@SomeRandom

You guys keep using scapegoat like it's a sneeze and you have a cold.

I'm curious: who, in your opinion, in this thread is scapegoating this issue and to what end?

[quote = dictionary] 'scape·goat
/ˈskāpˌɡōt/

noun

1. 1.
   a person who is blamed for the wrongdoings, mistakes, or faults of others, especially for reasons of expediency"

Far as I can see nobody in this thread is making any claims about any of this. People are just speculating, and that seems to be what you're really objecting to for some reason.

Full disclosure, I’m using scapegoat as a sort of “meme.” As in its a definition that is rather flexible and is often overused

In reality I think games, movies, comics etc can be correlated to violence in human communities. In the same way sports might be able to.
I see this discussion as one that is ultimately afraid to deal with actual underlying issues. Toxic masculinity, mental health issues, lack of support for addressing the said mental health issues and really a need for a broader understanding between youth and the adults, if you like. Kids don’t turn into maniacs just because they play FPS games. I think such a link is shallow. I do acknowledge excessively playing violent games is unhealthy, in the same way obsessing over violent historical figures may hint at other issues going on for a person
I just think there are other deeper issues going on. Issues that people don’t want to examine, so look for an easy out. Something they can blame instead of looking inward, discussing issues related to resentment, abandonment, lack of parental interference even. Depending on the specific circumstance.
Iow, I think that it’s way too easy to blame insert violent media here. So much so that it becomes a crutch used by some people as a way to shallowly address actual ongoing issues, but in a way that makes them feel like they actually did something useful. And I think the link is shaky at best. The studies are just not that conclusive. And I’m talking about decades upon decades of scientific research at this point. Like it’s one thing to hail science as an academic achievement. But can you really justify a causal link being established after so many inconclusive results or even studies that show the opposite? As has been brought up in this thread no less?
How many times do you need to prove gravity or that the earth isn’t flat? Like honestly? How many more studies do we have to make before I can actually say, okay you know what? Yeah it’s a factor but it’s probably more complicated? Please tell me!
Maybe we need to actually look at the underlying issues instead of sending another army of out of touch angry mums to Rockstar yet again. That’s all I’m saying

 

[Quagmire]

I feel I was pretty clear in stating that Conservatives

That's not clear at all. Or at least I don't see see how it's relevant. Unless you're suggesting that everybody speculating on this issue in this thread is a conservative and/or covertly pushing some kind of (pro-gun?) agenda.

To be a little more clear: there are people in this thread who don't identify as conservatives but who are speculating on the possibility that video games are contributing to violence in our society.

Dismissing thier arguments because "Conservatives use video games as a scapegoat" doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

 

[SomeRandom]

That's not clear at all. Or at least I don't see see how it's relevant. Unless you're suggesting that everybody speculating on this issue in this thread is a conservative and/or covertly pushing some kind of (pro-gun?) agenda.

To be a little more clear: there are people in this thread who don't identify as conservatives but who are speculating on the possibility that video games are contributing to violence in our society.

Dismissing thier arguments because "Conservatives use video games as a scapegoat" doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

My mother is a born and raised Hindu, free from such constraints. She’s progressive, she’s everything a conservative hates really (in this context I’m using conservative as in an American Republican, even though we live in Australia.)
That she sees the “devil” in rap music is still a position lacking in evidence all the same. A position I can criticise whilst acknowledging that she fits into her own little category in terms of political beliefs. Many devoid of this very discussion, arguably. Since we aren’t American to begin with
My point being that whilst I do agree that one shouldn’t dismiss an argument based solely on the belief that those advocating it fit into a neat little category. It’s also not really a shield to be used in the opposite direction, imo. Since people are individuals and have a wide array of opinions across the board.
Idk, just seems easy to dismiss or even protect arguments that I think should be judged solely on their own individual merits

(Also I find my ma’s reaction a bit odd in all honesty lol, since we don’t actually have “the devil” in Hinduism. At least not the Abrahamic interpretation. Weird. But whatever I guess.)

 

[Quagmire]

Full disclosure, I’m using scapegoat as a sort of “meme.” As in its a definition that is rather flexible and is often overused

In reality I think games, movies, comics etc can be correlated to violence in human communities. In the same way sports might be able to.
I see this discussion as one that is ultimately afraid to deal with actual underlying issues.

"this discussion is afraid. . ." ?

Not sure what to make of that statement. Are you suggesting that the people having this discussion here are 'afraid' to discuss other aspects that may be contributing to the problem?

Toxic masculinity, mental health issues, lack of support for addressing the said mental health issues and really a need for a broader understanding between youth and the adults, if you like.

And everybody who suggested we should be looking at video games was also pretty clear about the fact that we want people to stop talking about all these other possible factors, right?

(Trying to understand what this thread looks like to you)

Kids don’t turn into maniacs just because they play FPS games.

I know they don't. They sprout wings out of their forehead and fly to the moon (if you're going to come up with imaginary arguments to refute, might as well get creative about it)

I think such a link is shallow. I do acknowledge excessively playing violent games is unhealthy, in the same way obsessing over violent historical figures may hint at other issues going on for a person
I just think there are other deeper issues going on.

Yuh think?

Issues that people don’t want to examine,

Which issues exactly and which people exactly?

How about pick a couple of the issues that you had in mind, start threads about them, and see what happens.

If nobody shows up to post in those threads I'll concede the point.

so look for an easy out.
Something they can blame instead of looking inward, discussing issues related to resentment, abandonment, lack of parental interference even.

I see. So everybody in this thread who suspects that video games might be a contributing factor to violence is our society is opposed to and/or constitutionally incapable of any honest introspection as well as completely oblivious to the effect that parental influence has on a child's development.

Amazing that these people can even type whole words (I use voice to text myself so that clears that mystery up).

Depending on the specific circumstance.
Iow, I think that it’s way too easy to blame insert violent media here. So much so that it becomes a crutch used by some people as a way to shallowly address actual ongoing issues, but in a way that makes them feel like they actually did something useful. And I think the link is shaky at best. The studies are just not that conclusive. And I’m talking about decades upon decades of scientific research at this point.
Maybe we need to actually look at the underlying issues instead of sending angry mums to Rockstar yet again.

This all just sounds like a rehash of everything I've already addressed.

 

[SomeRandom]

"this discussion is afraid. . ." ?

Not sure what to make of that statement. Are you suggesting that the people having this discussion here are 'afraid' to discuss other aspects that may be contributing to the problem?.

Not necessarily. I was speaking of the argument itself. In a very broad sense.
I don’t think every single person making the argument is doing so for the same reasons.
That would be Freuding on a very high level indeed lol
(If you follow?)

And everybody who suggested we should be looking at video games was also pretty clear about the fact that we want people to stop talking about all these other possible factors, right?.

I acknowledge that. I’m not trying to say that everyone in this thread is trying to blame video games as the cause of the world’s problems. I do apologise if I came across like that
It was not my intent. I do mean that

(Trying to understand what this thread looks like to you).

Honestly?
I’m a little over this discussion as a whole. I quite literally grew up constantly justifying to adults why GTA wouldn’t turn me or my cousins into violent sociopaths/psychopaths. Bear in mind that in Australia, we didn’t have an R rating for video games until fairly recently. So our games were actually pretty censored for decades. Even as our movie industry was weirdly lax in comparison to US standards. Seriously what you guys rate as R for some nudity, we rate as PG

I know they don't. They sprout wings out of their forehead and fly to the moon (if you're going to come up with imaginary arguments to refute, might as well get creative about it).

Lol fair enough

Yuh think?



Which issues exactly and which people exactly?.

I hesitate to make an explicit “diagnosis” of individuals. I’m just commenting on a trend overall that I perceive.
Apologies if that came across as particularly accusatory. That honestly wasn’t my intent

How about pick a couple of the issues that you had in mind, start threads about them, and see what happens.

How about teenagers growing up in a culture that venerates and praises guns constantly and even treats owning them as a human right (2nd amendment.) Then leave these same kids to their own devices. To deal with unaddressed mental health issues they don’t understand, maybe?
Could such a factor not contribute to their feelings of isolation coupled with a culture that teaches them to admire shooters (looking at you decades upon decades of lone gunman movies)
Could that not lead to detrimental outcomes?
I mean I’m not American so I can’t comment one way or the other. But such a set up does seem a bit “doomed from the start” from my perspective
Just saying

If nobody shows up to post in those threads I'll concede the point.

I could make a thread condemning the treatment of conspiracy theorists and their attempts to “fully understand” Micheal Angelo’s works of art (and yes that’s an actual thing. It’s kind of weirdly fascinating, ngl)

If no one shows up, does that render the phenomenon pointed out irrelevant? Perhaps on this site. Sure.

Idk, I guess I don’t put that much actual stock into the validity of claims based on thread participation on this site.
If you do, then fair enough.
I can post such threads here, if you really want me to. I have no issue

I see. So everybody in this thread who suspects that video games might be a contributing factor to violence is our society is opposed to and/or constitutionally incapable of any honest introspection as well as completely oblivious to the effect that parental influence has on a child's development.

Apologies I was speaking in a more general sense.
As in my perception of this phenomenon/discussion overall and how it has existed for what now? 3 or 4 decades at this point?
Us 90s kids have it memorised at this point. Sorry lol

Amazing that these people can even type whole words (I use voice to text myself so that clears that mystery up).

I’m a drunk moron. I’m shocked that I can even remember the alphabet some days lol

This all just sounds like a rehash of everything I've already addressed.

Just like this thread sounds like a rehash of the Satanic Panic and how actual rock and roll musicians had to appear in front of their congress in order to argue for their right to free speech. In the US no less. Oh yeah we learnt about that in my part of the world. Don’t think we ignored that potential human rights violation
Hmm

 

[We Never Know]

There were and there are. FPS come with an age restriction label.

Age restrictions don't stop parents or someone else buying the games for the younger kids.
No different than alcohol and cigs.