Flood Evidences — revised

[Dan From Smithville]

“Water....disappeared by magic”? Nope. My previous response to you, post #957, answered this.

But now you’ve revealed a belittling closed-minded attitude.

So be it.
Take care.

And for the record, no one here has ever “debunked” any of the evidences I posted. Presenting counter-arguments is not debunking. In fact, the arguments given amount to “arguments of incredulity”. Was it not a Divinely-inspired event? Trying to explain it by natural means, then, will always be inadequate.

But we can observe, all over the Earth, it’s after effects…. the evidences it left behind. Discoveries from which geology and many other sciences can’t explain in depth. (Like most of the evidence in my OP and follow-up posts.)
But the Flood scenario perfectly explains, ie., “fits” them.

I'm not sure claiming something without evidence or reason and then ignoring questions counts as an argument.

 

[Audie]

I'm not sure claiming something without evidence or reason and then ignoring questions counts as an argument.

Careful...,,"you are claiming without evidence" means the same as "you just made that up,".

Those who don't like to be called on such things may shout " insult" and, "goodbye".

It's a terrific system.
Insult the other, then slam the door so they can avoid facing facts.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You say you are not a YEC….

Yes, I “say” it. I’m not.

…yet you want everyone to believe that the world was some sort of static lowland for millions and billions of years and then suddenly, it all changed.

Because I accept the Earth as divine. Which encompasses quite a lot: since it’s His creation for us humans His children, He took great care in & protected its development. And Adam and Eve were to enjoy their life, under His guidance. But after the Rebellion in Eden, Jehovah has let the Earth systems continue w/o His controlling influence. The forces & processes He established proceed w/o His constraint, for the most part. — See Isaiah 11:9… it “will be filled”… it is not happening, now.
That’s why there are deadly things to humans, now.
Prior to A&E’s rebellion, didn’t Jehovah tell them they could eat “from every tree of the Garden,” and that “all green vegetation” was to be their food? You can’t eat it all, now! Things have changed. Evolved, if you will. (You know I’ve always stated I believed in evolution, but that those processes have limits.) Some organisms, now, are deadly. They’ve developed ie, evolved ways to protect themselves. I’ve digressed, I know, but the point is made: This Earth was under God’s control… it isn’t currently, but it will be again, once the Rebellion issues are settled. And humans will enjoy unending life to the full, including the resurrected ones.

“Static lowland”? Please. There can be quite a lot of geological diversity under 7500 feet.

Continental drift, mountain formation, canyon formation, and so on.

Diversity in those processes, too.

And not any evidence for this nor an explanation of how anything would have survived such a vast and rapid release of incredible energy.

No surface dwelling organisms did survive… Except those whom Jehovah protected in the Ark.

You don't have a model. You have speculation.

Many models are based on speculation, set within parameters fitting the evidence. Mine fits.

Any thought on how that Siberian critter carcass evidence is only explainable by a global flood? Could you elaborate on what perfect preservation is and how the examples being found fit what you mean by that?

The catastrophic forces the Flood unleashed, not the least of which would be the instant formation of ice, more heavily in the Earth’s northern latitudes than in the southern (since the Flood occurred in / around November, according to the Bible), would create unique environments, deadly of course. I would think this lion, apparently found dry, was in a cave encased with ice, where couldn’t escape. (He was young, apparently.)
Many animals, prey & predator alike, have been discovered in caves, where they died huddled together. It seems their fear overrode normal instincts.

Such a Flood would certainly explain the Ice Age, and the accompanying quick extinction of many of the discovered lifeforms, within the Permafrost.

And c14 dating of organisms before the Flood, would be thrown way off.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@Dan From Smithville , the main reason for my skepticism of most of academia’s accepted interpretation of the facts — not accepted by all, I will add — is that not only do they reach their conclusions without consideration of all related evidence, but also of the influence described at https://biblehub.com/1_john/5-19.htm
and Revelation 12:9 ; they explain and “fit” the confusion,disunity, fear and nasty attitudes I see exhibited in most of the world today.
And only the ‘coming’ of God’s Kingdom will straighten it out. Matthew 6:9-10 ; 1 John 3:8 ; Hebrews 2:14

 

[shunyadragon]

@Dan From Smithville , the main reason for my skepticism of most of academia’s accepted interpretation of the facts — not by all, I will add — is that not only do they reach their conclusions without consideration of all related evidence, but also of the influence described at https://biblehub.com/1_john/5-19.htm
and Revelation 12:9 ; they explain and “fit” the confusion,disunity, fear and nasty attitudes I see exhibited in most of the world today.
And only the ‘coming’ of God’s Kingdom will straighten it out. Matthew 6:9-10 ; 1 John 3:8 ; Hebrews 2:14

The problem remains in all your threads and posts your objection to much of science , based on your selective agenda, and specifically the science of evolution is bsed subjective religious beliefs, You have failed present the interpretation of 'other?' objective verifiable evidence not presently considered by science.

 

[ppp]

Yes, I “say” it. I’m not.


Because I accept the Earth as divine. Which encompasses quite a lot: since it’s His creation for us humans His children, He took great care in & protected its development. And Adam and Eve were to enjoy their life, under His guidance. But after the Rebellion in Eden, Jehovah has let the Earth systems continue w/o His controlling influence. The forces & processes He established proceed w/o His constraint, for the most part. — See Isaiah 11:9… it “will be filled”… it is not happening, now.
That’s why there are deadly things to humans, now.
Prior to A&E’s rebellion, didn’t Jehovah tell them they could eat “from every tree of the Garden,” and that “all green vegetation” was to be their food? You can’t eat it all, now! Things have changed. Evolved, if you will. (You know I’ve always stated I believed in evolution, but that those processes have limits.) Some organisms, now, are deadly. They’ve developed ie, evolved ways to protect themselves. I’ve digressed, I know, but the point is made: This Earth was under God’s control… it isn’t currently, but it will be again, once the Rebellion issues are settled. And humans will enjoy unending life to the full, including the resurrected ones.

“Static lowland”? Please. There can be quite a lot of geological diversity under 7500 feet.




Diversity in those processes, too.

No surface dwelling organisms did survive… Except those whom Jehovah protected in the Ark.

Many models are based on speculation, set within parameters fitting the evidence. Mine fits.

The catastrophic forces the Flood unleashed, not the least of which would be the instant formation of ice, more heavily in the Earth’s northern latitudes than in the southern (since the Flood occurred in / around November, according to the Bible), would create unique environments, deadly of course. I would think this lion, apparently found dry, was in a cave encased with ice, where couldn’t escape. (He was young, apparently.)
Many animals, prey & predator alike, have been discovered in caves, where they died huddled together. It seems their fear overrode normal instincts.

Such a Flood would certainly explain the Ice Age, and the accompanying quick extinction of many of the discovered lifeforms, within the Permafrost.

And c14 dating of organisms before the Flood, would be thrown way off.

How would you demonstrate that any of your claims are true? Or are you just making assertions?

 

[Sheldon]

No, you misunderstand. There was no “high ground” as you put it. At least not very high. From the amount of water that we observe on the Earth now, there were probably no more higher elevations than 7500 ft. above the sea levels that existed then. (Just a guess, considering the volume of water that currently exists. Because if the Earth’s topography were completely leveled out — “smooth as a cue ball”, if you will — the waters we now have on Earth would cover the landmass to a depth of 2 1/2 miles
(And more water is constantly being discovered within the crust and mantle. That could have played a role, don’t know. I don’t need it, to support the model.)

But along with the formation of deeper “valleys”, there was an uplift of landmasses, both caused by the Flood as described in Psalms 104, and these mountains which obviously existed prior to the Flood due to their extreme weathering and erosion details, were just raised to higher elevations…which they did not have prior to the Flood.

So no, there’s no contradiction.

The creationist way...

 

[Subduction Zone]

And c14 dating of organisms before the Flood, would be thrown way off.

You would have to prove why. You cannot just claim that. And once more C14 dating is not used in geology and geology proves that you are wrong.

 

[Subduction Zone]

@Dan From Smithville , the main reason for my skepticism of most of academia’s accepted interpretation of the facts — not accepted by all, I will add — is that not only do they reach their conclusions without consideration of all related evidence, but also of the influence described at https://biblehub.com/1_john/5-19.htm
and Revelation 12:9 ; they explain and “fit” the confusion,disunity, fear and nasty attitudes I see exhibited in most of the world today.
And only the ‘coming’ of God’s Kingdom will straighten it out. Matthew 6:9-10 ; 1 John 3:8 ; Hebrews 2:14

You can't claim to be a skeptic if you do not follow the evidence. And to follow the evidence you need to understand the concept.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Yes, I “say” it. I’m not.


Because I accept the Earth as divine. Which encompasses quite a lot: since it’s His creation for us humans His children, He took great care in & protected its development. And Adam and Eve were to enjoy their life, under His guidance. But after the Rebellion in Eden, Jehovah has let the Earth systems continue w/o His controlling influence. The forces & processes He established proceed w/o His constraint, for the most part. — See Isaiah 11:9… it “will be filled”… it is not happening, now.
That’s why there are deadly things to humans, now.
Prior to A&E’s rebellion, didn’t Jehovah tell them they could eat “from every tree of the Garden,” and that “all green vegetation” was to be their food? You can’t eat it all, now! Things have changed. Evolved, if you will. (You know I’ve always stated I believed in evolution, but that those processes have limits.) Some organisms, now, are deadly. They’ve developed ie, evolved ways to protect themselves. I’ve digressed, I know, but the point is made: This Earth was under God’s control… it isn’t currently, but it will be again, once the Rebellion issues are settled. And humans will enjoy unending life to the full, including the resurrected ones.

I understand what you believe. I'm ok with that. But you are claiming things to sway people to believe in something you do and you don't have the evidence or the explanation that shows what you want it to. Your claims are not in themselves are not evidence for what you claim.

“Static lowland”? Please. There can be quite a lot of geological diversity under 7500 feet.

That is what you are asking everyone to believe amounts to.

Diversity in those processes, too.

No surface dwelling organisms did survive… Except those whom Jehovah protected in the Ark.

Nothing could have survived in or out of the ark if forces you speculate were turned loose and mountains rose and continents moved all in what would be a geological eyeblink. There is simply no evidence that gradual geological events such as continental drift or mountain formation could occur as you speculate or that such things did.

If God was required to protect the ark, why bother with an ark in the first place? That doesn't make any sense and there is nothing biblical to conjure to support that.

Many models are based on speculation, set within parameters fitting the evidence. Mine fits.

Not even close. Not even as you are trying to force it to fit. If they fit the evidence, then it is not speculation. It is explanation and you don't have that.

The catastrophic forces the Flood unleashed, not the least of which would be the instant formation of ice, more heavily in the Earth’s northern latitudes than in the southern (since the Flood occurred in / around November, according to the Bible), would create unique environments, deadly of course. I would think this lion, apparently found dry, was in a cave encased with ice, where couldn’t escape. (He was young, apparently.)
Many animals, prey & predator alike, have been discovered in caves, where they died huddled together. It seems their fear overrode normal instincts.

This doesn't even qualify as speculation. The energy released by the conditions alluded to in the Bible and the further claims of your speculation wouldn't allow temperatures to approach anything close to cold enough to freeze water. We have been over this and over this and others have been over it with you. You don't have the evidence. You don't even have plausible speculation.

Such a Flood would certainly explain the Ice Age, and the accompanying quick extinction of many of the discovered lifeforms, within the Permafrost.

No, it would not explain the Ice Age. Animals were not instantly frozen by a flood-induced instant ice age.

And c14 dating of organisms before the Flood, would be thrown way off.

Why would it be off? This is simply more speculation and again, not using any evidence to support it.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

@Dan From Smithville , the main reason for my skepticism of most of academia’s accepted interpretation of the facts — not accepted by all, I will add — is that not only do they reach their conclusions without consideration of all related evidence, but also of the influence described at https://biblehub.com/1_john/5-19.htm
and Revelation 12:9 ; they explain and “fit” the confusion,disunity, fear and nasty attitudes I see exhibited in most of the world today.
And only the ‘coming’ of God’s Kingdom will straighten it out. Matthew 6:9-10 ; 1 John 3:8 ; Hebrews 2:14

All the conclusions that I have seen regarding scientific review of a global flood have been based on a sound, reasonable interpretation of the facts by experts.

Reaching for obscure evidence like days of the dead or speculative publications that amount to fictional accounts that have been debunked is not evidence at all. It would require robust evidence and there simply is none. The only thing keeping the flood story afloat is a willingness of some to believe it without evidence.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

How would you demonstrate that any of your claims are true? Or are you just making assertions?

Have you ever read how science claims the planet Earth was formed? Talk about assertions! Especially considering the Sun’s gavitational pull.

As Newton worded it: gravity can explain how the planets maintain their orbits, but it doesn’t explain how they were put there!

Nothing could have survived in…the ark

Right. The account says Jehovah caused it, but He couldn’t protect the occupants.

Just…wow.

“You say” you accept a religion…Methodist, in fact.
Why?
Where does your faith begin?

This is Religious Forums, and my questions are valid.

 

[ppp]

Have you ever read how science claims the planet Earth was formed? Talk about assertions! Especially considering the Sun’s gavitational pull.

As Newton worded it: gravity can explain how the planets maintain their orbits, but it doesn’t explain how they were put there!

How would you demonstrate that any of your claims are true? Or are you just making assertions?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Have you ever read how science claims the planet Earth was formed? Talk about assertions! Especially considering the Sun’s gavitational pull.

As Newton worded it: gravity can explain how the planets maintain their orbits, but it doesn’t explain how they were put there!


Right. The account says Jehovah caused it, but He couldn’t protect the occupants.

Just…wow.

“You say” you accept a religion…Methodist, in fact.
Why?
Where does your faith begin?

This is Religious Forums, and my questions are valid.

We are discussing the flood and what you claim is evidence of a flood that cannot be explained as anything other than that.

I have no idea what you have moved into. What about God protecting the occupants? The ark I presume. The story goes that God commanded Noah to build and ark to protect his family and 2 or 7 or some number of all the animals on the earth. If the ark wasn't enough protection, then why bother having it constructed?

We are not talking about my faith and religion. Please stay with the claims you have made. I'm not offering claims or speculating on religious views other than to note that I accept you believe certain things that you cannot demonstrate for lack of evidence. I am ok that you believe something. The issue here is that you claim what you believe is a fact. All I am asking is a reasonable demonstration of that.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Have you ever read how science claims the planet Earth was formed? Talk about assertions! Especially considering the Sun’s gavitational pull.

As Newton worded it: gravity can explain how the planets maintain their orbits, but it doesn’t explain how they were put there!


Right. The account says Jehovah caused it, but He couldn’t protect the occupants.

Just…wow.

“You say” you accept a religion…Methodist, in fact.
Why?
Where does your faith begin?

This is Religious Forums, and my questions are valid.

If God was protecting them instead of the ark, what is the point of the ark?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

All the conclusions that I have seen regarding scientific review of a global flood have been based on a sound, reasonable interpretation of the facts by experts.

Every in-depth “scientific review” of the Flood that I’ve read, which is considerable, ties the Flood in with Young Earth Creation. So by debunking YEC, they claim to automatically debunk the Flood. That’s actually a disingenuous approach.
And also trying to explain the event as occurring by natural processes.
Well, it wasn’t by natural means, was it?

Reaching for obscure evidence like days of the dead or speculative publications that amount to fictional accounts that have been debunked is not evidence at all. It would require robust evidence and there simply is none. The only thing keeping the flood story afloat is a willingness of some to believe it without evidence.

There’s all kinds of unexplainable evidence that supports the catastrophe. The OP presents some of them, and follow-up posts present more.

Have a good evening.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

If God was protecting them instead of the ark, what is the point of the ark?

This makes no sense. Who’s “them”?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Every in-depth “scientific review” of the Flood that I’ve read, which is considerable, ties the Flood in with Young Earth Creation. So by debunking YEC, they claim to automatically debunk the Flood. That’s actually a disingenuous approach.

Can you provide a list of some of that body of work you are claiming follows that paradigm?

And also trying to explain the event as occurring by natural processes.
Well, it wasn’t by natural means, was it?

I don't understand this at all. Why are you then bothering to claim evidence for the flood if there is no natural means or evidence for it. Just assert that you believe it, but you recognize that there is no evidence around that belief.

There’s all kinds of unexplainable evidence that supports the catastrophe. The OP presents some of them, and follow-up posts present more.

????? If it is unexplainable, how can it be evidence supporting a flood or anything else for that matter? Unexplainable sort of rules it out right off.

Again, if you consider it a supernatural event without natural evidence, then how can the OP be presenting natural evidence according to what you have just told me?

Have a good evening.

You take care too.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

This makes no sense. Who’s “them”?

Are you now asserting that there is someone other than animals and the Noah family in the ark? Who else are we talking about here?

If God was required to protect the Noah clan and their cargo, why instruct the construction of an ark that was supposed to be the protection of Noah, et al?

Why not just make an impenetrable blister surrounding all the animals and the Noah family that would preserve them and prevent the encroachment of the flood. Given your claims of supernatural protection during the flood makes the ark superfluous.

This just illustrates my view that every explanation that flood supporters offer just opens up numerous new questions that demand answers that there is further inability to answer.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Every in-depth “scientific review” of the Flood that I’ve read, which is considerable, ties the Flood in with Young Earth Creation. So by debunking YEC, they claim to automatically debunk the Flood. That’s actually a disingenuous approach.
And also trying to explain the event as occurring by natural processes.
Well, it wasn’t by natural means, was it?



There’s all kinds of unexplainable evidence that supports the catastrophe. The OP presents some of them, and follow-up posts present more.

Have a good evening.

You seem to be forgetting the questions that were put to you by many people asking for an explanation of how the carcasses of ancient and often extinct mammal species are evidence of a global flood and only a global flood. That no other explanation makes sense.

Remember?

Why couldn't humans have been responsible for the destruction of these animals? How could they have been instantly frozen by an event as you describe it. The rainfall as described would have raised global temperatures and pressures to boiling. The additional energy released in your speculative tectonics would have vaporized everything including the ark. So no instant freezing or immediate Ice Age.

If you get the chance, I think many of us would like your explanation of that animal evidence. Among many other questions.