For all Trump Supporters

[esmith]

And replace it with what as to not kick 20 million people off of insurance and screw up the markets...?


Much of the structure of the ACA is a conservative plan which might be why they're having a hard time coming up with something else..OR...they never really were going to come up with something else to begin with.

who has said 20 million people will get kicked off their insurance?
I didn't see you carping about the approx 33 million that did not have health insurance under Obama care.

 

[Revoltingest]

The only thing I would add to that would be
4) A judiciary to adjudicate state vs state issues.

That could be included in his "law & order".

 

[metis]

That's it, Metis? @UpperLimits is making sense and you respond by quoting scripture? He didn't even make any insults, he's just presenting facts.

I think if you reread what he actually posted and its tone, and this wasn't the only time he's done it, you might conclude differently as it was quite insulting. Plus the reality is that even though he has an opinion, which is all fine and dandy, if you'd check the facts, and I recommended one source, it doesn't mesh with the actual facts.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

So how about for food? Shouldn't that also be a right? Or shelter?

Or police protection, fire department, roads, clean water, public education, etc, etc, etc. . . .

 

[metis]

Having insurance is not a right, nor should it be provided by our government.

Our markets did just fine before Obamacare and they''ll do just fine after its repealed.

So, having 20,000 Americans dying prematurely according to two highly respected and non-partisan sources, namely the Kaiser Family Foundation and Harvard University studies, is less important that some sort of political persuasion that hasn't been working out economically and leaves some serious holes medically?

Hey, whatever you do, I wouldn't recommend that you go live in Israel as they have government supplied medical care that's universal and less costly that what we have in the States.

 

[UpperLimits]

That could be included in his "law & order".

Yes. Thank you.

 

[UpperLimits]

17% of our GDP goes into healthcare, whereas the next highest industrialized county has it a bit over 12%, and the latter has universal coverage. You might actually check out the W.H.O. website on some of this information.

IF "17% of (y)our GDP goes into healthcare, whereas the next highest industrialized county has it a bit over 12%, and the latter has universal coverage," then the question should be obvious.... Why do they get far more coverage for so much less?

Rather than "sticking to your guns" and claiming that Obamacare is the way to paradise, wouldn't it make sense to look at what they're doing in these other places and see what parts of their system can be effectively implemented into yours?

From what I've seen on the newsreels, Trump doesn't want to ditch healthcare He simply wants to make it work more effectively.

 

[UpperLimits]

if you'd check the facts, and I recommended one source, it doesn't mesh with the actual facts.

Your source cites Gross Domestic Product. That's the total of all goods and services produced by the entire country. My source (The Frasier Report - A left wing think tank in Vancouver, BC, which by the way I didn't give reference, but only cited a portion of their work) cited government spending. That's the portion of the money in a jurisdiction that the government receives via tax dollars, and how they spend it.

While it is quite possible for total spending to be only 10 or 12 percent of a jurisdictions GDP, it's also quite possible in that same equation to have to have a total of government spending on a single item to be over 40% of their budget. GDP to government budget is an "apple to oranges" comparison.

 

[Akivah]

Hey, whatever you do, I wouldn't recommend that you go live in Israel as they have government supplied medical care that's universal and less costly that what we have in the States.

Once the Messiah arrives and cleans house, my plan is to move there.

 

[metis]

Once the Messiah arrives and cleans house, my plan is to move there.

Ya, but if he "cleans house", do you really think he's gonna want you there?

 

[fantome profane]

wouldn't it make sense to look at what they're doing in these other places and see what parts of their system can be effectively implemented into yours?

If you do your research you will find that the countries with the most effective healthcare systems have a single payer system. But this is exactly what the republicans fought so hard to prevent (and the democrats didn't exactly fight for it). The systems that bring down the cost also cut into the profits made by insurance companies and that is why you are having so many problems in the U.S.

 

[UpperLimits]

If you do your research you will find that the countries with the most effective healthcare systems have a single payer system. But this is exactly what the republicans fought so hard to prevent (and the democrats didn't exactly fight for it). The systems that bring down the cost also cut into the profits made by insurance companies and that is why you are having so many problems in the U.S.

I still don't believe single payer is the end all and be all of solutions. We've had single payer ever since it was introduced here in the early 1960's The only way I've ever seen costs go is up - and service down. Surely there are other factors. Or, untold realities....

 

[fantome profane]

I still don't believe single payer is the end all and be all of solutions. We've had single payer ever since it was introduced here in the early 1960's The only way I've ever seen costs go is up - and service down. Surely there are other factors. Or, untold realities....

But costs would have gone up with or without a single payers system as well. That is just the reality healthcare for the last few decades. And I do believe that without a single payer system they would have gone up more and gotten out of control.

What country are you from BTW? I'm Canadian. I am very proud of our healthcare system, it is not perfect, and of course prices have gone up since the 1960's. But it is still cheaper per capita than what they have in the States.

If you don't like a single payer system then how about just the public option. Give people that choice, and if they can do better, by all means. Republicans don't like the public option because they are afraid too many people are going to choose it, because the government can provide a better plan than most insurance companies want to give you. (the government is not motivated by profit)

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Having insurance is not a right, {/quote}

Never said it was.

nor should it be provided by our government.

Yet many conservatives and conservative voters who get their health insurance through the ACA as well as Medicare strongly disagree with you. It's only a minute few who rant about getting rid of "Obamacare" until they realize that means getting rid of the Affordable Care Act.And those congressmen/women running on such a platform aren't as vocal as they were weeks ago seeing as though they don't have an alternative.

Our markets did just fine before Obamacare and they''ll do just fine after its repealed.

Over time probably but the impact with health insurance companies and the medical industry in the way of job loss will be felt immediately. We're talking about over 20 minllion people with health insurance plans from private companies. The addition of these customers insurance companies saw a 100 to 400% increase in their stock value. small businesses such as doctors offices and dental practices hired more people. Hospitals hired more people as a result. To repeal will get rid of all that cause a huge upset in our economy.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

who has said 20 million people will get kicked off their insurance?
I didn't see you carping about the approx 33 million that did not have health insurance under Obama care.

I wasn't involved in any healthcare discussions around here prior to the ACA but I have been a long time proponent of a universal style healthcare well before joining this forum......and I've been a member for a long time now.

But out of curiosity...what do you suggest 20 million people do when they repeal the ACA with no viable plan in place? What should small practices who employ doctors, nurses, technicians etc. do when the ACA is repealed with no workable solution in place?

If you don't have an answer or don't care then be honest and say you don't. You'll get no push back from me. I'll just move the conversation along...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Take away California and Trump would have had a verifiable landslide. Sorry.

Because California isn't part of the US? How is this relevant to anything?

 

[Akivah]

Will there be effects? Of course. However, Obamacare needs to be dissolved before it gets as entrenched as social security. The longer we wait to clean up Obama's mess, the more painful it will be.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So, having 20,000 Americans dying prematurely according to two highly respected and non-partisan sources, namely the Kaiser Family Foundation and Harvard University studies, is less important that some sort of political persuasion that hasn't been working out economically and leaves some serious holes medically?

Hey, whatever you do, I wouldn't recommend that you go live in Israel as they have government supplied medical care that's universal and less costly that what we have in the States.

The market will always come to some sort of equilibrium. To some people, this is "just fine". Personally, I think it's a good idea to recognize that the realities of health care don't agree very much with the assumptions of free market economics.

 

[metis]

Personally, I think it's a good idea to recognize that the realities of health care don't agree very much with the assumptions of free market economics.

The ACA works mostly through the private insurance market, which is actually part of the problem because it's mostly tied up in the for-profit system we have that drives up costs.

OTOH, the Germans and the Danes use a single-payer system that works through private-health insurance providers that are also non-profit along with heavy regulations. Using this approach, they provide universal health care at significantly less cost than here in the States.

 

[metis]

Will there be effects? Of course. However, Obamacare needs to be dissolved before it gets as entrenched as social security. The longer we wait to clean up Obama's mess, the more painful it will be.

But 20 million Americans losing insurance will have nasty effects with them, and the CBO has concluded that it also would lead to massive medical inflation. IMO, it should be tweaked, maybe even heavily so, but definitely not eliminated en toto.