For Christians ... a question I've had for a long time

[nPeace]

Can you quote a scripture that says God created Adam to live forever in his physical body?
No. Then that claim is retracted then?

No. Unlike you, I can quote several.
(Genesis 2:17) . . .But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

(Genesis 3:22-24) 22 . . .Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.

(Romans 5:12) . . .just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.

That's three. No retraction is necessary.
Adam's sin is what brought death. He could have lived forever had he not eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. If he was allowed to eat from the tree of life, he would have lived forever... according to God's word as stated in the Bible.

Show me any scripture that says that ONLY the saints or holy ones will receive immortal spirit bodies.

I'll show you several.
(Daniel 7:18) . . .But the holy ones [saints] of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will possess the kingdom forever, yes, forever and ever.’

(Daniel 7:27) “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’

(2 Corinthians 5:1-5) 1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be torn down, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens. 2 For in this house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven, 3 so that when we do put it on, we will not be found naked. 4 In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down, because we do not want to put this one off, but we want to put the other on, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who prepared us for this very thing is God, who gave us the spirit as a token of what is to come.

(Philippians 3:20, 21) 20 But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body by his great power that enables him to subject all things to himself.

Show me any scripture that says that everyone else will rise from the dead and have physical bodies.

(John 3:3) . . .“Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
(John 3:5, 6) . . .Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. 6 What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.

Well if you claim to be logical, it shouldn't be hard to figure out that if one is not born of water and spirit, and thus cannot enter the kingdom of the heavens, then their resurrection cannot be to heaven, but would be on earth, as subjects of the kings in heaven.
I don't think you need me for that.
There are numerous scripture already quoted about earthly life.
(Acts 28:25-28) 25 “The holy spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your forefathers, 26 saying, ‘Go to this people and say: “You will indeed hear but by no means understand, and you will indeed look but by no means see. 27 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn back and I heal them.”’ 28 So let it be known to you that this salvation from God has been sent out to the nations; they will certainly listen to it.”

In some cases, Paul changed what Jesus taught, such as saved by grace alone, but that does not mean that everything Paul said was incorrect.

So then because you like Earth and do not want to go to heaven, does not mean that will happen, agreed?

I want what God wants. I did not say like you did, that I don't want to live one place, but live another. That was you. Wherever God wants me to be, is fine with me.

Give it up for lost. God never purposed that humans would live past their normal life spans or rise from physical graves after they were dead and buried. God never purposed that dead people would rise from their graves and live on Earth forever. That is not in the Bible, those beliefs are based upon JW doctrines that came about from a gross misinterpretation of Bible verses slapped together so JWs could believe what they want to believe and live on Earth forever. But it ain't happening and you will find that out when you die and pass on to the spiritual world. Till then you can retain your fantasy but don't expect me to remain silent about it when it is posted to me.

So you don't know what God wants, but you know what God proposed?

 

[Nivek001]

That's not what this Christian believes. Why the discrepancy?

The Resuscitation of Man from the Dead and His Entrance into Eternal Life

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

Well, what I posted is what this Christian does believe.

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
(Luke 24:36-39 KJV)

The apostles first seeing Jesus they thought they saw just the spirit of Jesus or Jesus in just his spiritual body. However, Jesus invited them saying “...handle me, and see”.

Then they realized Jesus actually had a body flesh and bone and was not simply a spirit. That shows the point that there is a physical body and there is a spiritual body. When one is physically living one has both their physical body and their spiritual body. It also shows that when Jesus was resurrected his physical body and spiritual body reunited.

 

[nPeace]

There is one:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

But there is not even one scripture that says that physical bodies will rise from graves and live on Earth forever.

A living spirit.
The person I am speaking with is talking about spirits - of men, women, and children - that can communicate with other spirits.
That scripture does not say anything about a living spirit.

 

[Nivek001]

Sorry if I misunderstood what you are trying to say.
You said... I believe those verses described what Jesus was doing between his death and resurrection.
Between death and resurrection cannot be alive.
So Jesus would either have to be acting in death - dreaming, or symbolically dead.
So I am not following, sorry.

Was Jesus dead before he was raised?
Did he preach to the spirits after being raised, or while dead?
I understand the scripture says. He was quickened, or made alive in the spirit, and in this state - alive in the spirit, he preached to the spirit that were in prison.

Tell me something though @Nivek001, how do you use he Bible? Do you read it, and then go with your view on what you think it says?
I think this is a very pertinent question, because the verses read... "And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water. (1 Peter 3:19, 20)

You came to the conclusion that those spirits are spirits of people that died in the flood.
What led you to that conclusion? Is it your own beliefs? Because, there is no scripture that says the people that drowned in Noah's day, survived in spirit form.
Moreover, there is no scripture that says a dead person has a living spirit anywhere on earth or in heaven.

What sheds a clear light on that scripture, is other scriptures, and this is how scripture i understood, and prevents confusion from personal ideas and views.

(2 Peter 2:4) Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tartarus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.

(Jude 6) And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.

Those two scriptures leave no unanswered questions as to whom the spirits that Jesus preached to were.
They were the angels that sinned in Noah's day, resulting in the wickedness that ruined the earth. (Genesis 6:1-4)

Even the demons in Jesus day feared being imprisoned by him.
(Matthew 8:29) . . .And look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?. . .
(Luke 8:31) . . .And they kept pleading with him not to order them to go away into the abyss.

When we get the answer from the Bible, our thoughts don't send us on a wrong path.


Thanks. So we read the scripture as it is then... He was put to death in the flesh, and made alive in the spirit.
ζῳοποιέω - zóopoieó - to make alive (I make that which was dead to live, cause to live, quicken.)

Jesus was killed while he was flesh, but God raised him as a spirit.
Is that not right?
In that state - as a spirit - he visited the wicked spirits in prison. Why? Some imagine it involves repentance, but the scripture do not say that.

I believe Jesus could do things while as a spirit after he died physically but before he was resurrected.

If the apostles saw Jesus appearing to them and also believed he was not alive then they believed Jesus was able to do things (such as appearing) as a spirit having only his spiritual body. They believed that while one was dead physically they were still active or alive spiritually.


18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(1Peter 3:18-19 KJV)

I believed Jesus did do things while physically dead but spiritually active (made alive or quickened) such as preaching unto spirts in a spiritual prison state.

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(1Peter 3:20 KJV)

That is a scripture describing just who were those spirits in prison Jesus preached to between his death and resurrection. That scripture described who those spirits were prior to being spirts in their spiritual prison state. That scripture specifically says disobedient in the days if Noah when the great flood came.

Other than the eight who survived which was Noah, his wife, Noah’s sons Japheth, Shem, and Ham and their wives(totaling eight), everyone else living on Earth at the time of the great flood died. That means 1Peter 3:20 IS a scripture that says those who died physically in the great flood continued on spiritually. If they didn’t continue to exist as spirits what would have been the point of Jesus preaching to those spirits?

Why doesn’t that scripture refers to repentance? If it didn’t refer to repentance why would Jesus bother to preach to those spirits? If there was no way for those spirts to repent it would have been pointless to make the effort to preach to them to begin with.

Also, what is your point with Matthew 8 and Luke 8 going over accounts by those who were possessed by devils? What do those devils fearing Jesus have to do with anyone else being able to continue with a spiritual body after death and reuniting with a perfect physical body when resurrected?

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Can you quote a scripture that says God created Adam to live forever in his physical body?
No. Then that claim is retracted then?

No. Unlike you, I can quote several.
(Genesis 2:17) . . .But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

(Genesis 3:22-24) 22 . . .Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.

(Romans 5:12) . . .just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.

That's three. No retraction is necessary.

I asked: "Can you quote a scripture that says God created Adam to live forever in his physical body?" Die in the context of that verse (from eating from the tree of knowledge) does not mean die physically, it means die spiritually. Live forever does not mean live forever in a physical body, it means have eternal life which is a quality of life of one who is close to God, and one can have eternal life in this earthly life and/or in the next life in the spiritual world.

Adam's sin is what brought death.

No, how God created our physical bodies to be mortal is what causes death.

He could have lived forever had he not eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. If he was allowed to eat from the tree of life, he would have lived forever... according to God's word as stated in the Bible.

No, this is not according to God’s word as stated in the Bible; it is only according to your interpretation of God’s word.

As noted in the paragraph below, Christians believe that the tree of life was a source of ongoing physical life and that Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life.

What is the Tree of Life?

“In Eden, the tree appears to have been a source of ongoing physical life. The presence of the tree of life suggests a supernatural provision of life as Adam and Eve ate the fruit their Creator provided. Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life. Once they sinned, they were banned from the Garden, separated from the tree, and subject to physical death, just as they had experienced spiritual death. Since Eden, death has reigned throughout history. But on the New Earth, our access to the tree of life is forever restored. (Notice that there’s no mention of a tree of the knowledge of good and evil to test us. The redeemed have already known sin and its devastation; they will desire it no more.)” What is the Tree of Life?

Baha’is believe that the tree of life is the Word of God which bestows eternal life. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His Manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits. Eternal life is a quality of life, of being near to God; it is not physical life, but spiritual life. God never created the physical body to live forever. Once the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world where it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in the heavenly realm.

It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)

“The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary 4 was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity—that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 124

From: 30: ADAM AND EVE

(Continued on
#148 Trailblazer, 1 minute ago)

 

[nPeace]

Revelation 7:9-17

Those verses are not about Jesus. They are about Baha’u’llah. For Christians everything in the Bible is about Jesus, but the problem is that the Bible is not ALL about Jesus. All the prophecies that refer to the return of Christ are about Baha'u'llah.

None of the following verses have anything to do with Jesus having a 1,000 year governmental reign over Earth.
Do you see the name Jesus in any of these verses?

Proverbs 2:21, 22 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Psalms 37:34 Wait on the Lord, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

The scriptures I quoted were evidence that people will live to see the first day of Christ's 1000 year reign.
Did you want evidence that Christ will rule for 1000 years?

(1 Corinthians 15:23-28) 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

(2 Timothy 2:12) . . .if we go on enduring, we will also rule together as kings; if we deny, he will also deny us;


(Revelation 1:4-6) 4 John to the seven congregations that are in the province of Asia: May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

(Revelation 5:6-10) 6 And I saw standing in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a lamb that seemed to have been slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, and the eyes mean the seven spirits of God that have been sent out into the whole earth. 7 At once he came forward and took it out of the right hand of the One seated on the throne. 8 When he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, and each one had a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense. (The incense means the prayers of the holy ones.) 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

(Revelation 5:11-14) 11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12 and they were saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb who was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.” 13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” 14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped.

(Revelation 7:14-17) 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

(Revelation 14:1) Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.

(Revelation 14:4) These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,

(Revelation 17:14) 14 These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.”

(Revelation 20:4) 4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.

(Revelation 20:6) . . .Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

(Revelation 21:9-14) 9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls that were full of the seven last plagues came and said to me: “Come, and I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 So he carried me away in the power of the spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God 11 and having the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone shining crystal clear. 12 It had a great and lofty wall and had 12 gates with 12 angels at the gates, and on the gates were inscribed the names of the 12 tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 On the east were three gates, and on the north three gates, and on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14 The wall of the city also had 12 foundation stones, and on them were the 12 names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb.

This was our last conversation on anything related to the Bible. I don't think you seriously care about the Bible... and I seriously doubt you care anything about God.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's the way I see it.
Take care now.

 

[nPeace]

I believe Jesus could do things while as a spirit after he died physically but before he was resurrected.

If the apostles saw Jesus appearing to them and also believed he was not alive then they believed Jesus was able to do things (such as appearing) as a spirit having only his spiritual body. They believed that while one was dead physically they were still active or alive spiritually.


18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(1Peter 3:18-19 KJV)

I believed Jesus did do things while physically dead but spiritually active (made alive or quickened) such as preaching unto spirts in a spiritual prison state.

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(1Peter 3:20 KJV)

That is a scripture describing just who were those spirits in prison Jesus preached to between his death and resurrection. That scripture described who those spirits were prior to being spirts in their spiritual prison state. That scripture specifically says disobedient in the days if Noah when the great flood came.

Other than the eight who survived which was Noah, his wife, Noah’s sons Japheth, Shem, and Ham and their wives(totaling eight), everyone else living on Earth at the time of the great flood died. That means 1Peter 3:20 IS a scripture that says those who died physically in the great flood continued on spiritually. If they didn’t continue to exist as spirits what would have been the point of Jesus preaching to those spirits?

Why doesn’t that scripture refers to repentance? If it didn’t refer to repentance why would Jesus bother to preach to those spirits? If there was no way for those spirts to repent it would have been pointless to make the effort to preach to them to begin with.

Also, what is your point with Matthew 8 and Luke 8 going over accounts by those who were possessed by devils? What do those devils fearing Jesus have to do with anyone else being able to continue with a spiritual body after death and reuniting with a perfect physical body when resurrected?

I'm signing off now.
I hope you don't mind me addressing this, one point at a time.
How can a dead person do anything before being raised to life? What is a resurrection?

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Show me any scripture that says that ONLY the saints or holy ones will receive immortal spirit bodies.

I'll show you several.
(Daniel 7:18) . . .But the holy ones [saints] of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will possess the kingdom forever, yes, forever and ever.’

(Daniel 7:27) “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’

(2 Corinthians 5:1-5) 1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be torn down, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens. 2 For in this house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven, 3 so that when we do put it on, we will not be found naked. 4 In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down, because we do not want to put this one off, but we want to put the other on, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who prepared us for this very thing is God, who gave us the spirit as a token of what is to come.

(Philippians 3:20, 21) 20 But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body by his great power that enables him to subject all things to himself.

I said “Show me any scripture that says that ONLY the saints or holy ones will receive immortal spirit bodies.” None of the verses you cited say that. It is true that the holy ones and the saints will enter the Kingdom of God in heaven, but that does not mean that other people will not go to the spiritual world and receive immortal spirit bodies.

I believe that the soul (spirit) of man is immortal, so no matter what people believe or disbelieve no soul ever actually perishes, so perish in John 3:16 means being far from God.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223

Those people who are veiled from God, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies, are as dead souls.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.” Some Answered Questions, p. 243

Well if you claim to be logical, it shouldn't be hard to figure out that if one is not born of water and spirit, and thus cannot enter the kingdom of the heavens, then their resurrection cannot be to heaven, but would be on earth, as subjects of the kings in heaven.

You are correct, if one is not born of water and spirit, and thus cannot enter the kingdom of the heavens, but that does not mean that they will not enter the spiritual world, because the soul never dies so it has to go somewhere. As such the logical conclusion is that some souls are in between heaven and hell or in hell, which is simply a state of the soul that is far from God. Nobody who dies physically gets resurrected and lives on earth.

Trailblazer said: Show me any scripture that says that everyone else will rise from the dead and have physical bodies.

(John 3:3) . . .“Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
(John 3:5, 6) . . .Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. 6 What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.

You did not show me any scripture that says that everyone who is not born again/born from water and spirit will rise from the dead and have physical bodies. As I sais above, only those who ARE born of the water and the spirit will enter heaven, but the spiritual world is a vast dimension and there is room for everyone there, in heaven and in hell and in between.

I don't think you need me for that.
There are numerous scripture already quoted about earthly life.
(Acts 28:25-28) 25 “The holy spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your forefathers, 26 saying, ‘Go to this people and say: “You will indeed hear but by no means understand, and you will indeed look but by no means see. 27 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn back and I heal them.”’ 28 So let it be known to you that this salvation from God has been sent out to the nations; they will certainly listen to it.”

Of course much of scripture is about earthly life but the part you don’t understand is that earthly life is for the living until they die, and then it is for the next generation of living people until they die, and so on and so forth.

Matthew 22:31-32 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what God said to you: ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’d? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Trailblazer said: So then because you like Earth and do not want to go to heaven, does not mean that will happen, agreed?

I want what God wants. I did not say like you did, that I don't want to live one place, but live another. That was you. Wherever God wants me to be, is fine with me.

That argument won’t work because I never said that the reason I was going to heaven is because I don’t like earth. Wherever God wants me to be is fine with me, but I know it will not be Earth after I die, because my body will remain dead and return to dust, just as the Bible says.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Trailblazer said: Give it up for lost. God never purposed that humans would live past their normal life spans or rise from physical graves after they were dead and buried. God never purposed that dead people would rise from their graves and live on Earth forever. That is not in the Bible, those beliefs are based upon JW doctrines that came about from a gross misinterpretation of Bible verses slapped together so JWs could believe what they want to believe and live on Earth forever. But it ain't happening and you will find that out when you die and pass on to the spiritual world. Till then you can retain your fantasy but don't expect me to remain silent about it when it is posted to me.

So you don't know what God wants, but you know what God proposed?

I know what God wants which is what God purposed for humans from the very beginning of time.
It is all in the Bible.

 

[Nivek001]

I'm signing off now.
I hope you don't mind me addressing this, one point at a time.
How can a dead person do anything before being raised to life? What is a resurrection?

You mean like how can a person who has died and who appears to have a body but doesn’t have flesh and bones like what the apostles first assumed when they saw Jesus after his death do anything like move around and communicate with other spirits? Where do you get that a spirit cannot do those things?

1Peter 3:18-20 described Jesus between his physical death and resurrection where he continued to act as a spirit and preached to other spirits who apparently were also active as spirts otherwise they couldn’t have been preached to by Jesus. I have already pointed this out before.

I also pointed out what I believe resurrection to be, which is the spirit and the physical body reuniting. Casein point again is 1Peter 3:18-20 showing Jesus continued on as a spirit after he died physically. Also, in Luke 24 Jesus appearing to his apostles in a body of flesh and bone his apostles could handle. That shows then Jesus had received his physical body which reunited with his spirit which Jesus in both spirit and physical body appeared to his apostles.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The meek shall inherit the earth is in part symbolism, and part literal IMO.
The literal is the thousand year reign, the spiritual is eternal reign with God.
And it says the heaven and the earth fled from the face of God, and were
found no more. Heaven is a realm where there is no more sea, no light of
the sun, no more of anything found in my illustrative religious publications.

Hey, @PruePhillip , hope you are well! I don't think you & I have ever had a conversation, have we? If so, I don't recall.

Here's something you might find interesting....

Of course, we always need to look at the context to see how a word is used, when reading the Bible.

At Revelation 21:1, John states “I saw new heavens and a new earth, for the former heavens and the former earth had passed away. And the sea is no more.”

If this is literal, why destroy the old? What did they do?
And no more sea? Why? Life needs the oceans! It makes no sense.

But, if it’s symbolic, what does it mean?

If you will, please read Isaiah 57:20. And then Psalms 37:10...
“Yet a little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found.”

See the correlation?

What about the Earth then, in Revelation 21:1?
Well, Earth in Scripture doesn’t always mean the planet. Please look at Genesis 11:1. Does a planet have a language? No. But people do. So earth can refer to society.
In 2 Peter 3, Peter speaks about the fact of the Deluge in Noah’s day? Notice how Peter worded it, @ 2 Peter 3:7...”But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.”

See the phrase, “that now exist”? Apparently the heavens and earth, in Peter’s day, did not exist / were different before the Flood. And it was: a different society of people.

And the heavens were different, too. Just as the literal heavens are “over” the literal Earth, so, too, governments, or ruling authorities, are “over” society.

EDIT: And the new heavens, in Revelation 21:1 & Isaiah 65:17, represent God’s Kingdom ruling over the entire Earth. See Daniel 2:44.

Sorry to cut this short...gotta go!
Take care.

 

[roberto]

Since it was Not the time for Jesus' 1,000 year reign over Earth those people died again.- Luke 19:11-15
Remember Jesus' dead friend at John chapter 11 ________
If we turn to John 12:9-10 you will find the chief priests consulted on how to get rid of Jesus' resurrected friend.
Apparently they succeeded in killing Jesus' friend because there is No record of him after that.
In other words, his friend was absent Not listed as being around when Jesus died or when he was resurrected.
Like John the Baptist, Jesus' friend will have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection - Matthew 11:11; Acts of the Apostles 24:15

URAVIP2ME,
The Luke19:11-15 does not quite match what I'm asking but thank you kindly for reply, I will studysearch further.

 

[roberto]

Do you mean the ones Christ raised from the dead during his mortal ministry such as Lazarus?

No, Nivek001, sorry I should've posted the verses, here they are:
Mat 27:52 Also the graves were opened, and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life;
Mat 27:53 and after Yeshua rose, they came out of the graves and went into the holy city, where many people saw them.

 

[soulsurvivor]

My understanding is that you get a new body that looks like the one you have but fully spiritual and without the effects of aging or the consequences of the cursed ground.

The question is - will it be physical? Will it have weight and mass? Will it obey Newton's laws of motion?

 

[PruePhillip]

Hey, @PruePhillip , hope you are well! I don't think you & I have ever had a conversation, have we? If so, I don't recall.

Here's something you might find interesting....

Of course, we always need to look at the context to see how a word is used, when reading the Bible.

At Revelation 21:1, John states “I saw new heavens and a new earth, for the former heavens and the former earth had passed away. And the sea is no more.”

If this is literal, why destroy the old? What did they do?
And no more sea? Why? Life needs the oceans! It makes no sense.

But, if it’s symbolic, what does it mean?

If you will, please read Isaiah 57:20. And then Psalms 37:10...
“Yet a little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found.”

See the correlation?

What about the Earth then, in Revelation 21:1?
Well, Earth in Scripture doesn’t always mean the planet. Please look at Genesis 11:1. Does a planet have a language? No. But people do. So earth can refer to society.
In 2 Peter 3, Peter speaks about the fact of the Deluge in Noah’s day? Notice how Peter worded it, @ 2 Peter 3:7...”But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.”

See the phrase, “that now exist”? Apparently the heavens and earth, in Peter’s day, did not exist / were different before the Flood. And it was: a different society of people.

And the heavens were different, too. Just as the literal heavens are “over” the literal Earth, so, too, governments, or ruling authorities, are “over” society.

EDIT: And the new heavens, in Revelation 21:1 & Isaiah 65:17, represent God’s Kingdom ruling over the entire Earth. See Daniel 2:44.

Sorry to cut this short...gotta go!
Take care.

Revelations is fairly clear - the natural realm will vanish - no more earth, no more heavens, no more sun, no more sea.
It's saying clearly this kingdom is spiritual, heavenly, the realm of God and not of the things that decay and die.
As I see it - we don't live with flesh and blood, become the spirit in death, and then are sent back to
live with flesh and blood in a patched up world.

 

[Trailblazer]

The apostles first seeing Jesus they thought they saw just the spirit of Jesus or Jesus in just his spiritual body. However, Jesus invited them saying “...handle me, and see”.

Then they realized Jesus actually had a body flesh and bone and was not simply a spirit. That shows the point that there is a physical body and there is a spiritual body. When one is physically living one has both their physical body and their spiritual body. It also shows that when Jesus was resurrected his physical body and spiritual body reunited.

With all due respect I do not believe that the resurrection stories in the gospels are true stories so I do not believe Jesus ever said
"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

I do not believe that the body of Jesus ever rose from the grave. I believe that the soul (spirit) of Jesus ascended to heaven right after He died on the cross and that is where Jesus exists now, in a spiritual body.

A physical body cannot reunite with a physical body because heavenly bodies (spiritual bodies) and earthy bodies (physical bodies) are two different kinds of bodies, as Paul said. Physical bodies are designed to live on earth and spiritual bodies are designed to live in the spiritual world (heaven).

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter

 

[PruePhillip]

With all due respect I do not believe that the resurrection stories in the gospels are true stories so I do not believe Jesus ever said
"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

I do not believe that the body of Jesus ever rose from the grave. I believe that the soul (spirit) of Jesus ascended to heaven right after He died on the cross and that is where Jesus exists now, in a spiritual body.

A physical body cannot reunite with a physical body because heavenly bodies (spiritual bodies) and earthy bodies (physical bodies) are two different kinds of bodies, as Paul said. Physical bodies are designed to live on earth and spiritual bodies are designed to live in the spiritual world (heaven).

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter

So you are choosing what parts of scripture to believe? If you believe the resurrection then
you believe in the miracles, virgin birth, God speaking from heaven and his physical resurrection.
To accept his torn hands is to believe he rose from the grave. That doesn't mean he rose to heaven
with his torn flesh.

 

[Trailblazer]

A living spirit.
The person I am speaking with is talking about spirits - of men, women, and children - that can communicate with other spirits.
That scripture does not say anything about a living spirit.

No, that scripture does not say anything about a living spirit, but what you said to that poster is this:

Moreover, there is no scripture that says a dead person has a living spirit anywhere on earth or in heaven.

All I am saying is that a person who has died (a dead person) has a spirit that lives on and goes to heaven.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you are choosing what parts of scripture to believe? If you believe the resurrection then you believe in the miracles, virgin birth, God speaking from heaven and his physical resurrection.
To accept his torn hands is to believe he rose from the grave. That doesn't mean he rose to heaven
with his torn flesh.

I do choose which parts of the scripture were to be understood literally vs. figuratively. I cannot say why the gospel authors wrote that Jesus literally rose from the grave, but that is not actual proof that He did because a story is not proof that anything in the story ever happened. There would have to have been someone outside the story, an independent eyewitness that had nothing to do with authorship of the Bible, in order to verify that the events in the resurrection stories actually took place.

I believe that when the body of Jesus died His soul rose to heaven, or as Baha'u'llah wrote:
“He took His flight unto the fourth Heaven.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 133

I cannot say what miracles Jesus performed because there is no way to know, but I can say I believe that Jesus could perform miracles because it is according to my Baha'i beliefs that a Holy Manifestation of God such as Jesus can perform miracles:

Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.

Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

Some Answered Questions, p. 100

Regarding the virgin birth, it is also according to my Baha'i beliefs that Jesus was born of a virgin.

"First regarding the birth of Jesus Christ. In light of what Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá have stated concerning this subject it is evident that Jesus came into this world through the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, and that consequently His birth was quite miraculous. This is an established fact, and the friends need not feel at all surprised, as the belief in the possibility of miracles has never been rejected in the Teachings. Their importance, however, has been minimized."

(From a letter dated December 31, 1937 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

Lights of Guidance/Christ - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

 

[PruePhillip]

I do choose which parts of the scripture were to be understood literally vs. figuratively. I cannot say why the gospel authors wrote that Jesus literally rose from the grave, but that is not actual proof that He did because a story is not proof that anything in the story ever happened. There would have to have been someone outside the story, an independent eyewitness that had nothing to do with authorship of the Bible, in order to verify that the events in the resurrection stories actually took place.

I believe that when the body of Jesus died His soul rose to heaven, or as Baha'u'llah wrote:
“He took His flight unto the fourth Heaven.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 133

I cannot say what miracles Jesus performed because there is no way to know, but I can say I believe that Jesus could perform miracles because it is according to my Baha'i beliefs that a Holy Manifestation of God such as Jesus can perform miracles:

Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.

Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

Some Answered Questions, p. 100

Regarding the virgin birth, it is also according to my Baha'i beliefs that Jesus was born of a virgin.

"First regarding the birth of Jesus Christ. In light of what Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá have stated concerning this subject it is evident that Jesus came into this world through the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, and that consequently His birth was quite miraculous. This is an established fact, and the friends need not feel at all surprised, as the belief in the possibility of miracles has never been rejected in the Teachings. Their importance, however, has been minimized."

(From a letter dated December 31, 1937 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

Lights of Guidance/Christ - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

I can't comment on anything to do with someone called Baha'u'llah.
The bible is not about independent proofs - it's about faith, and learning
faith through obedience to scripture, and proving it for yourself.

 

[Trailblazer]

The scriptures I quoted were evidence that people will live to see the first day of Christ's 1000 year reign.
Did you want evidence that Christ will rule for 1000 years?

(1 Corinthians 15:23-28) 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

(2 Timothy 2:12) . . .if we go on enduring, we will also rule together as kings; if we deny, he will also deny us;

(Revelation 1:4-6) 4 John to the seven congregations that are in the province of Asia: May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

(Revelation 5:6-10) 6 And I saw standing in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a lamb that seemed to have been slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, and the eyes mean the seven spirits of God that have been sent out into the whole earth. 7 At once he came forward and took it out of the right hand of the One seated on the throne. 8 When he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, and each one had a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense. (The incense means the prayers of the holy ones.) 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

(Revelation 5:11-14) 11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12 and they were saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb who was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.” 13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” 14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped.

(Revelation 7:14-17) 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

(Revelation 14:1) Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.

(Revelation 14:4) These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,

(Revelation 17:14) 14 These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.”

(Revelation 20:4) 4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.

(Revelation 20:6) . . .Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

(Revelation 21:9-14) 9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls that were full of the seven last plagues came and said to me: “Come, and I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 So he carried me away in the power of the spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God 11 and having the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone shining crystal clear. 12 It had a great and lofty wall and had 12 gates with 12 angels at the gates, and on the gates were inscribed the names of the 12 tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 On the east were three gates, and on the north three gates, and on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14 The wall of the city also had 12 foundation stones, and on them were the 12 names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb.

I am sorry but you just BELIEVE that those scriptures are evidence that Christ will rule for 1000 years, but they are not evidence because they are not even about Jesus.. The reign of Jesus on earth ended when He died on the cross and said "it's finished."

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:28-30 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

The Dispensation of Jesus ended when Muhammad appeared on Earth thus all power to rule Earth for God was handed over to Muhammad at that time. Jesus is not going to rule Earth from heaven, and there is nothing in the Bible that says that. As such it is just something you want to believe so you try to apply verses to Jesus that do not apply to Jesus.

This was our last conversation on anything related to the Bible. I don't think you seriously care about the Bible... and I seriously doubt you care anything about God.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's the way I see it.
Take care now.

You are free to have your personal opinion about me, but I do care about God.
If I didn't care about God I would not be on this forum, I'd be off sunning myself on a beach.