We're going in circles.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
For Muslims: Is Muhammad the last Prophet from God?
- Thread starter Truthseeker
- Start date
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
If Khatam, could literally mean "final" as one of the meanings, the Arab scholars did not need to go the farther way, and interpret it metaphorically to mean final.
who had told you, it means final?
I quoted Arab scholarsz they say, it meant Signet Ring, or Seal. I don't know where you got that idea from.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Ok, leave it. We can agree to disagreeWe're going in circles.
You repeat questions. We've been through this before. I'm not going through you ignoring all evidence again. I'm not pasting what @firedragon showed you nor going to talk about the other verse with this same word.
Yes Arab scholars didn't need to. The ones who did so did a mistake.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
“Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created – Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood: Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful, He Who taught (the use of) the pen, Taught man that which he knew not”
Quran, 96:1-5
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Isaiah 29:11-12
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
There cant be a last prophet if a covenant exists for information to be conveyed without end.
The Quran endorses reason and endorses Isa/Yeshua, who endorsed Isaiah by quoting from his book.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
..but how does that apply to 'a seal' ?
It renders it meaningless .. they can't all be 'seals'.
I mean, it would be as if G-d changed His mind .. which He doesn't.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
The guidance (law) hasn't changed much .. from Adam through to Muhammad.
Some people like to think so i.e. the law being abrogated
We have the Bible and Qur'an .. it is clear what is prohibited .. and some things G-d has purposely
left ambiguous .. G-d has given us intelligence.
..and how we use that intelligence, is all down to intention.
The thing is because God is hidden, fearing God is from love, because it accepts who God is while he is unseen. If we want to follow caprice and also don't want to worry about others going to hell, we simply deny God's wrathful side, since he is unseen and love is all that can see him now. We can easily just deny his existence or deny who he is. Most mankind does the latter, they choose who he is rather submitting to him.
However, fearing God means fear, so I agree with you, people trying to down play fear these days.
As for 6 days, I would say unless something in the book shows this is not the case. In Quran, in one place it says he made the sky first then spread the earth. Yet another place shows the skies were created AFTER.
Sky also takes on heavenly unseen world in many places and the stars therein not literal stars or lanterns by context.
Also earth takes on more then one meaning, for example, he clung to the earth, means low desire.
The seven earths and seven heavens.
However, we see here it's clearly not metaphor:
Are you the harder to create or the heaven? He made it. 27He raised high its height, then put it into a right good state. 28And He made dark its night and brought out its light. 29And the earth, He expanded it after that. 30He brought forth from it its water and its pasturage. 31And the mountains, He made them firm, 32A provision for you and for your cattle.
Yet here it says:
ثُمَّ اسْتَوَىٰ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ وَهِيَ دُخَانٌ فَقَالَ لَهَا وَلِلْأَرْضِ ائْتِيَا طَوْعًا أَوْ كَرْهًا قَالَتَا أَتَيْنَا طَائِعِينَ | Then He turned to the heaven, and it was smoke, and He said to it and to the earth, ‘Come, willingly or unwillingly!’ They said, ‘We come obediently.’ | Fussilat : 11
فَقَضَاهُنَّ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ فِي يَوْمَيْنِ وَأَوْحَىٰ فِي كُلِّ سَمَاءٍ أَمْرَهَا ۚ وَزَيَّنَّا السَّمَاءَ الدُّنْيَا بِمَصَابِيحَ وَحِفْظًا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ تَقْدِيرُ الْعَزِيزِ الْعَلِيمِ | Then He set them up as seven heavens in two days, and revealed in each heaven its ordinance. We have adorned the world's heaven with lamps, and guarded them. That is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing. | Fussilat : 12
Before going into this we have to see some of metaphors in Quran, to get familiar context.
Earth as darkness and selfishness and lust
And if their turning away is hard on you, then if you can seek an opening (to go down) into the earth or a ladder (to ascend up) to heaven so that you should bring them a sign and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have gathered them all on guidance, therefore be not of the ignorant. (6:35)
My comment: Obviously there is a link to bringing the ultimate sign of his Nubuwa and Authority (Mohammad), with the meaning of opening into the earth or a ladder to heaven/sky, so we see heaven/sky and earth can have metaphorically understanding. This can't be literal, so there is a meaning. Going down suggests earth represents darkness and low nature of a human. This while heaven/sky represents the light reality the heart is linked to.
Had We wished, We would have surely raised him by their means, but he clung to the earth and followed his [base] desires. So his parable is that of a dog: if you make for it, it lolls out its tongue, and if you let it alone, it lolls out its tongue. Such is the parable of the people who deny Our signs. So recount these narratives, so that they may reflect. (7:176)
My comment: following his desires is obviously synonymous here with clinging to the earth showing earth has a metaphoric meaning with lower nature of the human spiritual kingdom.
Heaven/Sky where lights are found
13And even if We open to them a gateway of heaven, so that they ascend into it all the while, 14They would certainly say: Only our eyes have been covered over, rather we are an enchanted people. 15And certainly We have made strongholds in the heaven and We have made it fair seeming to the beholders. 16And We guard it against every accursed Shaitan, 17But he who steals a hearing, so there follows him a visible flame.
My comment: A long with the first verse I quoted, we see not only is heaven a place where the lights of guidance are found, but ultimately, the heaven/sky reality is guarded from every devil. The visible flame that follows intruders suggests the stars of guidance are living beings guarding this realm.
7 Earths 7 Heavens mirror each other
It is Allah who has created seven heavens, and of the earth [a number] similar to them. The command descends through them, that you may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah comprehends all things in knowledge. (End of Surah Talaq)
My comment: We see heaven and earth mirror each other in this respect. This a major illusion, it's about light and darkness aspects of a human.
The morning and 10 nights and pair and single
In Surah Fajr the night has been according to some hadiths, seen as a metaphor of Imams (a) being veiled and their reality and proof become less vivid and clear.
It can be seen as a warning, because the verses after, are talking about how God dealt with oppressive nations. It can be seen in that light, if the lights have become veiled due to oppression towards truth, then God's wrath may take place like past destroyed nations.
The fajr (morning) is said to be Imam Mahdi (a) according to the hadith. The 10 nights Hassan (the 2nd Imam) to Hassan (the 11th). The pair being Ali (a) and Fatima (s). And the single/alone being Mohammad (s).
It can be seen this is if things go wrong. Now I am saying this because Quran has analogies and metaphors of night so that we can discuss in light of this what "6 days" means.
The 6 days as metaphors of leaving darkness towards light.
It can be seen every time we leave one veil of darkness, light is unveiled, but no darkness is without light. And so after the 6th tearing, the final veil is when "God establishes himself on the throne (of the heart)".
This can be seen that 7 earths are stages, 7th earth is when we finally enter to the sky reality and light, which then has 7 veils of light.
The Quran in this way is describing the journey of the first human Adam (a) when describing the creation of earth and heavens.
My final comment: There is big theme of lanterns/stars in Quran and see Surah Jinn also this in regard, and Surah Mulk, that they are weapons against devils. This can't be literal. The context in Surah Hijr also shows it's not literal. And the Quran refers to these stars when describing the six days of creation at the end, which shows it's not the literal earth and heavens. The literal creation of heavens and earth described has the opposite order.
If you read that chapter (41), you will see that there are 8 days as well. This goes along with the theory, the first 6 days are to journey to heaven, once arrived at heaven, it took two days, meaning the first is the 6 veils of light and the final day is at the 7th veil which is a station all together different since it's a place of joining with God "two bows or closer still".
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
..but how does that apply to 'a seal' ?
It renders it meaningless .. they can't all be 'seals'.
I mean, it would be as if G-d changed His mind .. which He doesn't.
But God can do whatever He wants. He told Abraham go and kill your son, then He changed.
He had told the Jews to keep the Sabath Covenant forever, even in Quran retells the story but Allah later did not require that Law anymore on the Quran.
"You read the Book (i.e., the Qur'an) at night as well as day; so is there anyone among you who knows what was revealed in it? If it had not been for a verse in the Book of Allah, I would have informed you of what has happened (in the past), what will happen, and what shall happen until the Day of Resurrection. And that is the verse: 'Allah erases and confirms what He Wishes, and with Him is the Mother of the Book.' [Surah Ar-Ra'd: 39]..."
I quote Wikipedia:
According to the Qur'an, God originally appointed thirty nights of worship for Moses, and later increased it to forty nights before granting him the Torah:
We appointed for Moses thirty nights then added another ten—completing his Lord’s term of forty nights. Moses commanded his brother Aaron, “Take my place among my people, do what is right, and do not follow the way of the corruptors.”
— Surah Al-A'raf 7:142
The wisdom behind the change in the length of appointment was only known afterwards, wherein the people took to disbelief:
And ˹remember˺ when We appointed forty nights for Moses, then you worshipped the calf in his absence, acting wrongfully.
— Surah Al-Baqara 2:51
The change from thirty nights to forty nights do not reflect a change in God's Knowledge, but only a change in the knowledge that Moses possessed
Bada' - Wikipedia
So, even if He told you Muhamamd is the Final, It is upto Him. God can erase what He wrote in the Quran. It could have been depending on how successful the Ummah was.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Not exactly .. I believe it was a dream .. and G-d stopped him, saying it was fulfilled.
We have Juma'a..
By that token, G-d can erase our intelligence and common sense.
Here's a thing, laid out in chronological order.
Jews say eating pig is forbidden.
Christians say pig is not forbidden.
Muslims say eating pig is forbidden.
Bahai's say eating pig is not forbidden.
Looks to me, that people make lawful what seems good to them. They will always find an excuse.
..but we only fool ourselves. satan causes loss.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
This nails it.
Hadith of Prophet:
حدثنا محمد بن القاسم بن العباس بن موسى العلوي بقصر ابن هبيرة ودارم بن قبيصة بن نهشل النهشلي، قالوا حدثنا علي بن موسى بن جعفر، عن أبيه عن آبائه عن علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام قال: ض قال رسول (ص) يا علي ما سألت أنت ربي شيئا إلا سألت مثله غير إنه قال لا: نبوة بعدك، أنت خاتم النبيين وعلي خاتم الوصيين
The narration you provided is an important piece of Shia hadith literature. Here's a translation of the text:
"Reported by Muhammad ibn al-Qasim ibn al-Abbas ibn Musa al-Alawi at the Palace of Ibn Hubayrah and Darim ibn Qabisah ibn Nahshal al-Nahshali, who said they were told by Ali ibn Musa ibn Ja'far, from his father, from his forefathers, from Ali ibn Abi Talib (peace be upon him), who said:
The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him and his family) said: 'O Ali, whatever you have asked your Lord for, I have asked for the same except that He said no to one thing:
there will be no prophethood after you. You are the Seal of the Prophets, and Ali is the Seal of the Successors.'"
Another Hadith:
أنا خاتم النبيين، وعلي خاتم الوصيين
I am the Seal of Prophets and Ali, Seal of Successors
From these Hadithes, being "Seal" seems to mean "Ornament", as a Ring that ia worn as an Ornament. It denotes having a special position among others.
If seal meant, that there would not be another Prophet after Muhammad, then by the same logic, after Ali there couldn't have been other Imams. Which is false.
Unless, inconsistently, interpret them differently. if you don't want to accept something, you won't. There is nothing more I can do.
Here is another one:
ومن الكتاب المذكور مرفوعاً إلى جابر عن أمير المؤم خرجت أنا ورسول اللّه صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم إلى صحراء المدينة ، فلمّا صِرنا في الحدائق بين النخل صاحت نخلة بنخلة : هذا النبيّ المصطفى ، وذا عليّ المرتضى . ثمّ صاحت ثالثة برابعة : هذا موسى وذا هارون . ثمّ صاحت خامسة لسادسة : هذا خاتم النبيّين وذا خاتم الوصيّين . فعند ذلك تبسّم النبيّ صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم وقال : يا أبا الحسن ، أ ما سمعت ؟ قلت : بلى يا رسول اللّه . قال : ما يسمّى هذا النخل ؟ قلت : اللّه ورسوله أعلم . قال : تسمّيه الصيحاني ؛ لأنّهم صاحوا بفضلي وبفضلك
The excerpt you provided is a beautiful and significant narration that highlights the special status of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) and Imam Ali (peace be upon him). Here is a translation of the text:
> Reported by Jaber from Amir al-Mu'minin (peace be upon him): "I went out with the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him and his family) to the desert of Medina. When we reached the gardens among the palm trees, one palm tree called to another: 'This is the chosen Prophet, and this is Ali, the one who is pleased with Allah.' Then a third tree called to a fourth: 'This is Moses, and this is Aaron.' Then a fifth tree called to a sixth: 'This is the Seal of the Prophets, and this is the Seal of the Successors.' At that moment, the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) smiled and said: 'O Abu al-Hasan, did you hear that?' I replied: 'Yes, O Messenger of Allah.' He said: 'Do you know what this palm tree is called?' I said: 'Allah and His Messenger know best.' He said: 'It is called al-Sayhani because they proclaimed my excellence and your excellence.'"
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Kosher food is part of Mosaic law, and that was only for the twelve tribes of Israel.
firedragon
Veteran Member
The hadith doesn't mention a "seal". You didn't provide any facts.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Irrelevant.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
It was a true dream. God sometimes talked to Prophets in their dreams.
God ordered Jews not work on the Sabath, but He did not ordered Muslims not to work on Friday.
have you read the Quran, what God did to some Jews when they went fishing on Sabath?
By that token, G-d can erase our intelligence and common sense.
Here's a thing, laid out in chronological order.
Jews say eating pig is forbidden.
Christians say pig is not forbidden.
Muslims say eating pig is forbidden.
Bahai's say eating pig is not forbidden.
Looks to me, that people make lawful what seems good to them. They will always find an excuse.
..but we only fool ourselves. satan causes loss.
It is about erasing what God said in His books.
But, to your point, yes, God can put a Seal on anyone's heart, so, they do not understand. It is in the Quran too
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
So what?
The facts relating to the sealed book are from the books of Isaiah, Daniel, and Revelation.
Also this:
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
John 6:27
firedragon
Veteran Member
You said it does, now you say "so what"? I think you have an internal conflict. Ciao.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
No, I didn't.