firedragon
Veteran Member
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For Muslims: Is Muhammad the last Prophet from God?
- Thread starter Truthseeker
- Start date
Going in circles clearly explains the "First" and the "Last". It is the logical reason given to us by Allah. Just as the material existence goes in cycles, so does our relative Spiritual understanding.We're going in circles.
The Messenger is Annointed, a new creation comes into being, it is the "First" The Spring has Come. Then summer, autumn and winter of that Faith go through the cycle and the religion enters the "Last" days of the Cycle.
Thus Muhammad was the first and the Last of the Islamic dispensation. Muhammad was also anointed of the Holy Spirit which is the same Holy Spirit Annointed by Allah to all the Messengers. So Muhammad, as one with all the past and future messengers, was also the First Messenger and will also be the Last Messenger, for a beginning that has no beginning until and End that has no end.
That is also how Jesus told us that Elijah was John the Baptist, the return of all the attributes of Elijah, anointed again in John the Baptist as the herald of a new cycle given of Allah. This is why the Bab was also Elijah, the Gate of the new Cycle of the "Promised Day of Allah".
Until we embrace the cycles given to us by Allah, we are not able to plant the crop of faith in our heart at a time, given by Allah, when it will take root, grow and flourish.
Regards Tony
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
The point, for anyone who missed it, is that the title of 'seal of the prophets' relates to Aisha's story about Muhammad in the cave of Hira (a seal is made by pressing), and that story relates to verses from Isaiah about a sealed book (given to an illiterate/unlearned man). The sealed book is also mentioned in the books of Daniel and Revelation...
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Natural cycles relate to astrology and the signs and seasons of Genesis 1:14. The sign of Jonah is about a great fish, which symbolizes Pisces. In the zodiac Pisces opposes virgo, which relates to the story of the virgin birth.
This nails it.
Hadith of Prophet:
حدثنا محمد بن القاسم بن العباس بن موسى العلوي بقصر ابن هبيرة ودارم بن قبيصة بن نهشل النهشلي، قالوا حدثنا علي بن موسى بن جعفر، عن أبيه عن آبائه عن علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام قال: ض قال رسول (ص) يا علي ما سألت أنت ربي شيئا إلا سألت مثله غير إنه قال لا: نبوة بعدك، أنت خاتم النبيين وعلي خاتم الوصيين
The narration you provided is an important piece of Shia hadith literature. Here's a translation of the text:
"Reported by Muhammad ibn al-Qasim ibn al-Abbas ibn Musa al-Alawi at the Palace of Ibn Hubayrah and Darim ibn Qabisah ibn Nahshal al-Nahshali, who said they were told by Ali ibn Musa ibn Ja'far, from his father, from his forefathers, from Ali ibn Abi Talib (peace be upon him), who said:
The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him and his family) said: 'O Ali, whatever you have asked your Lord for, I have asked for the same except that He said no to one thing:
there will be no prophethood after you. You are the Seal of the Prophets, and Ali is the Seal of the Successors.'"
Another Hadith:
أنا خاتم النبيين، وعلي خاتم الوصيين
I am the Seal of Prophets and Ali, Seal of Successors
From these Hadithes, being "Seal" seems to mean "Ornament", as a Ring that ia worn as an Ornament. It denotes having a special position among others.
If seal meant, that there would not be another Prophet after Muhammad, then by the same logic, after Ali there couldn't have been other Imams. Which is false.
Unless, inconsistently, interpret them differently. if you don't want to accept something, you won't. There is nothing more I can do.
Here is another one:
ومن الكتاب المذكور مرفوعاً إلى جابر عن أمير المؤم خرجت أنا ورسول اللّه صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم إلى صحراء المدينة ، فلمّا صِرنا في الحدائق بين النخل صاحت نخلة بنخلة : هذا النبيّ المصطفى ، وذا عليّ المرتضى . ثمّ صاحت ثالثة برابعة : هذا موسى وذا هارون . ثمّ صاحت خامسة لسادسة : هذا خاتم النبيّين وذا خاتم الوصيّين . فعند ذلك تبسّم النبيّ صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم وقال : يا أبا الحسن ، أ ما سمعت ؟ قلت : بلى يا رسول اللّه . قال : ما يسمّى هذا النخل ؟ قلت : اللّه ورسوله أعلم . قال : تسمّيه الصيحاني ؛ لأنّهم صاحوا بفضلي وبفضلك
The excerpt you provided is a beautiful and significant narration that highlights the special status of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) and Imam Ali (peace be upon him). Here is a translation of the text:
> Reported by Jaber from Amir al-Mu'minin (peace be upon him): "I went out with the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him and his family) to the desert of Medina. When we reached the gardens among the palm trees, one palm tree called to another: 'This is the chosen Prophet, and this is Ali, the one who is pleased with Allah.' Then a third tree called to a fourth: 'This is Moses, and this is Aaron.' Then a fifth tree called to a sixth: 'This is the Seal of the Prophets, and this is the Seal of the Successors.' At that moment, the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) smiled and said: 'O Abu al-Hasan, did you hear that?' I replied: 'Yes, O Messenger of Allah.' He said: 'Do you know what this palm tree is called?' I said: 'Allah and His Messenger know best.' He said: 'It is called al-Sayhani because they proclaimed my excellence and your excellence.'"
Salam
The first hadith connects it to the fact there is no Nubuwa after Mohammad (s). In context of that it says Mohammad (S) is seal of Prophets and Ali is the seal of the successors. Now, how would Ali (a) be seal of successors being implied by there being no Nubuwa after Mohammad (S)? It's simple, here it's means successors means direct succession. Hassan (a) is successor of the Nabi (s), but by succeeding Ali (a), not directly. This is a very simple fact to accept by the simple question, if someone asks, "who succeeded the Prophet?", people usually reply with either Ali (a) or Abu Bakr. They think immediate succession. Since there is no more Prophethood after Mohammad (s), it follows Ali (a) is the last of the immediate successors to a Prophet.
Also, a question of epistemology. The hadith of Manzilat is as undoubtedly massive transmission in Sunni sources from over 25 companions narrating it, and also it's a massively reported hadith in Shiite sources.
In the hadith it says "except there is no Prophet after me", why didn't he say "until the Mahdi"?
Two words in Arabic and it would've clarified that the Mahdi is a Nabi and not having those two words, means there is no Nabi after including the Mahdi.
It doesn't make sense to follow a narration here and there, and forsake massively transmitted hadiths. And the first hadith say there is no Nubuwa after Mohammad (s) so how does that one verify the Bahai view?
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The pressing story of Aisha is not verified in Shiite sources. It's a different story in Shiite sources:
From the time of his weaning, Allah had put a mighty angel/king with him to take him along the path of high character and good behaviour through day and night, while I used to follow him like a young camel following in the footprints of its mother. Every day he would show me in the form of a banner some of his high traits and commanded me to follow it. Every year he used to go in seclusion to the hill of Hira', where I saw him but no one else saw him. In those days Islam did not exist in any house except that of the Prophet of Allah - peace and blessing of Allah be upon him and his descendants - and Khadijah, while I was the third after these two. I used to see and watch the effulgence of divine revelation and message, and breathed the scent of Prophethood.
When the revelation descended on the Prophet of Allah - peace and blessing of Allah be upon him and his descendants - I heard the moan of Satan. I said, "O Prophet of Allah, what is this moan?" and he replied, "This is Satan who has lost all hope of being worshipped. O Ali, you see all that I see and you hear all that I hear, except that you are not a Prophet, but you are a vicegerent and you are surely on (the path of) virtue."
I was with him when a party of the Quraysh came to him and said to him, "O Muhammad, you have made a big claim which none of your fore-fathers or those of your family have made. We ask you one thing; if you give us an answer to it and show it to us, we will believe that you are a prophet and a messenger, but if you cannot do it, we will know that you are a sorcerer and a liar."
The Messenger of Allah said: "What do you ask for?" They said: "Ask this tree to move for us, even with its roots, and stop before you." The Prophet said, "Verily, Allah has power over everything. If Allah does it for you, will you then believe and stand witness to the truth?" They said "Yes". Then he said, "I shall show you whatever you want, but I know that you won't bend towards virtue, and there are among you those who will be thrown into the pit, and those who will form parties (against me)." Then the Holy Prophet said: "O tree, if you do believe in Allah and the Day of Judgement, and know that I am the Prophet of Allah, come up with your roots and stand before me with the permission of Allah." By Him who deputed the Prophet with truth, the tree did remove itself with its root and came with a great humming sound and a flapping like the flapping of the wings of birds, till it stopped before the Messenger of Allah and cast its higher branches over the Prophet, while some of its branches came down onto my shoulders, and I was on the right side of the Holy Prophet.
When the people saw this they said by way of pride and vanity. "Now you order half of it to come to you and the other half of it remain (in its place)." The Holy Prophet ordered the tree to do the same. Then half of the tree advanced towards him in an amazing manner and with greater humming. It was about to touch the Prophet of Allah. Then they said, disbelieving and revolting, "Ask this half to get back to its other half and be as it was." The Prophet ordered it and it returned. Then I said, "There is no god but Allah! O Prophet of Allah, I am the first to believe in you and to acknowledge that the tree did what it did just now with the command of Allah, the Sublime, in testimony to your Prophethood and to heighten your word”. Upon this all the people shouted, "Rather a sorcerer, a liar; it is wonderful sorcery, he is very adept in it. Only a man like this (pointing to me) can stand testimony to you in your affairs."
My comment: I believe the story of Mohammad (s) being pressed, running to Khadija (a), and doubting himself was a story made up by enemies of Islam. The above story is more expected of the best of mankind.
firedragon
Veteran Member
It has no relevance. This is completely bogus. Just dreamt up. Anyone can see that if they read it. Unless someone is maliciously inserting meanings unfound in them.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
It's relevant because "seal of the prophets" is meaningful when the prophet Isaiah validates Muhammad and seal can mean validation.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
The point of those Hadithes was to show, clearly, how in my view, Seal does not mean the Last, even as Ali was the Seal of Successors.
In fact, the reason such Hadithes exist, is that they may be a guide for those who think being the Seal, means being the Final. That same Hadith, says, No Prophet after you, is about Successorship in Islam. It does not mean, there won't be any Prophets forever.
Think about it, there has been Prophets after Prophets, and God changed the Laws and Ordinances to suit the needs of People in every Age. Why should God stop that? We live in a new Age. People's culture, technology, laws of countries are all changed. How could the Shariah Law that was revealed 1400 years ago, not updated by God?
Shias have a Dua called Nudbih. In it is says:
أَيْنَ الْمُرْتَجَى لِإِزَالَةِ الْجَوْرِ وَ الْعُدْوَانِ أَيْنَ الْمُدَّخَرُ لِتَجْدِيدِ الْفَرَائِضِ وَ السُّنَنِ
"Where is the hoped-for one to remove injustice and aggression? Where is the one who is preserved to renew the ordinances and the traditions?"
You know what renewal of Ordinances and Traditions mean?
It means there comes a time, when the Ordinances and traditions of Quran, becomes too old. Therefore there is One who is preserved to bring a new Law and Ordinances.
As it is said in several Hadithes, that the Qaim comes with a new Book and a New Law
يأتي بكتاب جديد و بشرع جديد على العرب شديد
يقوم بأمر جديد و سنّة جديدة و قضاء جديد على العرب شديد ليس شأنه الّا القتل و لا يستتيب أحدا و لا تأخذه فى اللّه لومة لائم
"He Rises with a new decree, a new tradition, And a new judgment, which is severe upon the Arabs.
His affair is but killing,
He grants no respite to anyone,
And he bears no blame in Allah's sight."
لكأني انظر إليه بين الركن والمقام يبايع له الناس بأمر جديد وكتاب جديد وسلطان جديد من السماء اما انه لا ترد له راية ابدا حتى يموت وعنه
Here's the translation of the text you provided:
"It is as if I see him between the corner and the place of standing, people pledging allegiance to him with a new command, a new book, and a new authority from the heavens. Surely, no banner will ever be refused to him until he dies and leaves it."
So much evidences. But, all of it, for Muslims, just mean something else. It could not possibly mean, there will be another Revelation after Quran. Because, Muhammad is Seal of Prophets, and He has said, there is no Prophet after Him.
As Baha'u'llah says
How strange! These people with one hand cling to those verses of the Qur’án and those traditions of the people of certitude which they have found to accord with their inclinations and interests, and with the other reject those which are contrary to their selfish desires.
“Believe ye then part of the Book, and deny part?”
How could ye judge that which ye understand not? Even as the Lord of being hath in His unerring Book, after speaking of the “Seal” in His exalted utterance: “Muḥammad is the Apostle of God and the Seal of the Prophets,” hath revealed unto all people the promise of “attainment unto the divine Presence.”
firedragon
Veteran Member
The hadith you cited doesn't talk about that. So it's irrelevant.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
You left out the part about Isaiah.
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Isaiah 29:11-12
firedragon
Veteran Member
There is no relationship with that. Because this hadith is not talking about him being the seal of prophets. And your Isiah does not say seal of prophets. It's talking about a sealed book.
Completely irrelevant.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
The relationship between Muhammad and the verses from Isaiah is that the Hebrew for "not learned" can mean illiterate and Muhammad was illiterate.
Also according to Bukhari, Muhammad was given a book from a divine messenger and the verses describe a book being delivered.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Yet again, it has no relationship to the hadith you shared. It has nothing about khatham annabiyyeena.
Anyway, as a Muslim, why would anyone care about Isiah in the Tanakh?
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
The relationship between the seal of the prophets and the hadith is that a seal is made by pressing and in the hadith Muhammad was pressed.
Taken with the verses from Isaiah, Muhammad was the seal when he (an illiterate man) was pressed at the same time as he was told to read the book, which relates to the sealed book of the prophets Daniel and Isaiah.
Because the Quran endorses the Torah and the Torah endorses Isaiah by repeating text about Hezekiah.
Thus saith the king, Let not Hezekiah deceive you: for he shall not be able to deliver you out of his hand:
2 Kings 18:29
Thus saith the king, Let not Hezekiah deceive you: for he shall not be able to deliver you.
Isaiah 36:14
In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith YHWH, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
2 Kings 20:1
In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith YHWH, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.
Isaiah 38:1
firedragon
Veteran Member
It doesn't say that. I will repeat since you don't seem to get it. "IT DOESN'T SAY THAT".
Yeah. Isiah is not the Torah. Not even according to the Jewish Tanakh.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Yes it does.
An Angel came to him and asked him to read. Allah's Messenger replied, "I do not know how to read." The Prophet added, "Then the Angel held me (forcibly) and pressed me so hard that I felt distressed. Then he released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he held me again and pressed me for the second time till I felt distressed. He then released me and asked me to read, but again I replied. 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he held me for the third time and pressed me till I got distressed, and then he released me and said, 'Read, in the Name of your Lord Who has created (all that exists), has created man out of a clot, Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous. Who has taught (the writing) by the pen, has taught man that which he knew not." (96.1-5).
Bukhari 4953
Not the entire book, obviously. I posted two single verses which appear in both.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
So. Win-win for you. Now, for what reason you assume that 'non-physical' exists?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
You believe it is his, we do not see any evidence. God is not even ambiguous, it is just a belief against all evidence.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Elohim is more than a belief because of signs that cannot be reasonably explained in terms of mundane causes.