For Parents: If God Told You To...

[Nakosis]

nah, i would say it was a way to keep people in line...
we need to do this, because god said so...so don't ask questions....and cause waves....it's gods order.

That's ok. That is kind of what I am saying. The event was then necessary to keep people in line. Stop trying to judge the event as a moral teaching.

IOW it was necessary to get us to here. Perhaps even to the point of judging it as immoral. It's all part of the plan.

Maybe God was disappointed Abraham agreed. Maybe if Abraham refused, God would be like "Cool, man recognized the immorality of the request." Unfortunately since Abraham didn't God saw man needed a lot more work.

Like testing to see if the turkey is done and sticking it back in the oven for several thousand years when it isn't.

 

[Kathryn]

Please explain how this isn't a knowledge claim about what God will or will not do?

God gives us insight into His personality and into His character over time. There is no need to sacrifice anyone or anything on an altar anymore - Christ's sacrifice is full and sufficient. God makes this clear in the New Testament - or at least, that's what Christians believe.

We can and do certainly know things about God and His character - we know more than Abraham could possibly know from his perspective.

 

[BobbyisStrange]

You're playing the "what if" game.

There is no "what might have been." There is only "what is."

"What is" is that God did not intend for Abraham to sacrifice Isaac.

Here's an interesting article from a Jewish perspective:

The Binding of Isaac - My Jewish Learning

This whole thread is a what if game

 

[waitasec]

That's ok. That is kind of what I am saying. The event was then necessary to keep people in line. Stop trying to judge the event as a moral teaching.

IOW it was necessary to get us to here. Perhaps even to the point of judging it as immoral. It's all part of the plan.

exactly.

 

[Kathryn]

This whole thread is a what if game

We can speculate about what we WOULD do in the future - but we can't change events of the past and what has happened.

That's my point about "what ifs."

 

[waitasec]

i love that word...speculate...

 

[Father Heathen]

We can speculate about what we WOULD do in the future - but we can't change events of the past and what has happened.

That's my point about "what ifs."

If a child was drinking a random cleaner from beneath the sink, but fortune would have it that it was a nontoxic one, would lecturing the child be a "what if game"? The child didn't fall ill or die, after all.

 

[BobbyisStrange]

God gives us insight into His personality and into His character over time. There is no need to sacrifice anyone or anything on an altar anymore - Christ's sacrifice is full and sufficient. God makes this clear in the New Testament - or at least, that's what Christians believe.

We can and do certainly know things about God and His character - we know more than Abraham could possibly know from his perspective.

You are making absurd assertions...if God really exists as well as Abraham and they talked back and forth, there is no way you can claim the knowledge he possessed from a few pages in Genesis. You are playing a double standards game. You are saying we can't know all of Gods plan but when it is relevant you can say well we know some of his character...i saw how convenient...let me tell you something about Gods character...I think I'll quote Richard Dawkins, Gods character is he is "jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

 

[Kathryn]

If a child was drinking a random cleaner from beneath the sink, but fortune would have it that it was a nontoxic one, would lecturing the child be a "what if game"? The child didn't fall ill or die, after all.

No, that's not a good analogy.

What if I tell my child every day, "Don't touch the stove." I also tell my child every day, "Obey me."

One day I tell the child, "Touch the stove." I know that when he touches the stove this time, he's not going to burn himself, but he doesn't know that. Will he obey me? Does he trust me? Does he trust that I have his best interests in mind, even when he doesn't understand my directives or know what the outcome will be?

 

[waitasec]

No, that's not a good analogy.

What if I tell my child every day, "Don't touch the stove." I also tell my child every day, "Obey me."

One day I tell the child, "Touch the stove." I know that when he touches the stove this time, he's not going to burn himself, but he doesn't know that. Will he obey me? Does he trust me? Does he trust that I have his best interests in mind, even when he doesn't understand my directives or know what the outcome will be?

hmmm...so what is the point...to obey you or to not touch the stove?

 

[Kathryn]

You are making absurd assertions...if God really exists as well as Abraham and they talked back and forth, there is no way you can claim the knowledge he possessed from a few pages in Genesis. You are playing a double standards game. You are saying we can't know all of Gods plan but when it is relevant you can say well we know some of his character...i saw how convenient...let me tell you something about Gods character...I think I'll quote Richard Dawkins, Gods character is he is "jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

Sorry you feel that way. Or rather, that Dawkins feels that way and that you feel a need to parrot his words to me (don't bother, I've already read those words, and more, from Dawkins).

What I said is that Abraham did not have the bible (true) and that he knew nothing of Jesus (also true). He did not have the revelations that we received after Abraham's time (true).

Also, there is a difference between knowing aspects of God's CHARACTER, and knowing God's PLAN. Can you really not see the difference?

That's what I said. Don't twist it.

 

[Kathryn]

hmmm...so what is the point...to obey you or to not touch the stove?

What do you think?

 

[waitasec]

What do you think?

ha ha
i'm asking you.

 

[Kathryn]

ha ha
i'm asking you.

Ha ha, my post was pretty clear. Reread it. My point is that God knows more than we know about EVERY situation.

Are you a parent? Do you believe that sometimes it's very important for our children to obey first and ask for clarification later?

 

[Me Myself]

Sorry you feel that way.

to be fair, most of what he said can be quoted case by case from the bible. Proud and jelous are even God describing himself. God being a bully is straigthforward from Job. After all, when Job wanted to talk to God because he was giving him all that damage and God replied, God´s reply was pretty much "I am so strong I can do this and this and this and this and this and this and this that you cannot do, and you want to argue ME?" . nonsense.

 

[BobbyisStrange]

Sorry you feel that way. Or rather, that Dawkins feels that way and that you feel a need to parrot his words to me (don't bother, I've already read those words, and more, from Dawkins).

What I said is that Abraham did not have the bible (true) and that he knew nothing of Jesus (also true). He did not have the revelations that we received after Abraham's time (true).

Also, there is a difference between knowing aspects of God's CHARACTER, and knowing God's PLAN. Can you really not see the difference?

That's what I said. Don't twist it.

You're making knowledge claims about something you couldn't possibly know...Abraham Lived 175 and youre telling me you everything he knew? You don't see that that is what youre saying?

 

[Father Heathen]

No, that's not a good analogy.

What if I tell my child every day, "Don't touch the stove." I also tell my child every day, "Obey me."

One day I tell the child, "Touch the stove." I know that when he touches the stove this time, he's not going to burn himself, but he doesn't know that. Will he obey me? Does he trust me? Does he trust that I have his best interests in mind, even when he doesn't understand my directives or know what the outcome will be?

Your analogies are getting desperate. Do you honestly think it's good parenting to tell a child to touch the stove, only to jerk their hand away at the last moment after they comply? Is a mindless automaton with blind trust and unquestioning obedience, yet lacking any sense of morality or rationale, an ideal child? As for the child not knowing that the stove would burn him, Abraham knew that murdering his son would result in a murdered son, obviously. How would god have reacted had Abraham defied him?

 

[waitasec]

Ha ha, my post was pretty clear. Reread it. My point is that God knows more than we know about EVERY situation.

Are you a parent? Do you believe that sometimes it's very important for our children to obey first and ask for clarification later?

hee hee...
i think we put more weight on the idea of obeying than what the lessons we teach our children. look i would love it if my son didn't question every frickin thing i say...
which reminds me of a thread that i started awhile back...
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/126835-should-i-worried.html

in fact if my child never questioned me i would worry...a lot.

 

[Kathryn]

You're making knowledge claims about something you couldn't possibly know...Abraham Lived 175 and youre telling me you everything he knew? You don't see that that is what youre saying?

I don't see that is what I'm saying, because that's not what I'm saying.

Are you saying that Abraham had the bible that we have today and that he knew about Jesus and that He was going to die on a cross at age 33 as a sacrifice for our sins?

Aren't those some pretty important factors when it comes to God's continuing revelations AFTER Abraham lived and died?

 

[Father Heathen]

Are you saying that Abraham had the bible that we have today and that he knew about Jesus and that He was going to die on a cross at age 33 as a sacrifice for our sins?

Did Jesus know about Joseph Smith?