For Parents: If God Told You To...

[Kathryn]

hee hee...
i think we put more weight on the idea of obeying than what the lessons we teach our children. look i would love it if my son didn't question every frickin thing i say...
which reminds me of a thread that i started awhile back...
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/126835-should-i-worried.html

in fact if my child never questioned me i would worry...a lot.

I never claimed that we can't or shouldn't question or seek more wisdom or knowledge. In fact, God expects us to continue to seek more wisdom as we mature.

But when we don't understand something, that doesn't mean we don't have an obligation to obey. Let me give you a good example:

When I was a bank manager, I had to enforce policies whether my employees fully understood the reasons behind the policies or not. I explained things as clearly as possible, but sometimes they just didn't get it. However, whether they "got it" or not, they still had better obey those policies, or go on down the road.

 

[waitasec]

I never claimed that we can't or shouldn't question or seek more wisdom or knowledge. In fact, God expects us to continue to seek more wisdom as we mature.

But when we don't understand something, that doesn't mean we don't have an obligation to obey. Let me give you a good example:

When I was a bank manager, I had to enforce policies whether my employees fully understood the reasons behind the policies or not. I explained things as clearly as possible, but sometimes they just didn't get it. However, whether they "got it" or not, they still had better obey those policies, or go on down the road.

but the story doesn't show anywhere where abraham questioned god...he just trusted god would provide a lamb ( i just checked to make sure so i don't :foot

so the same goes with the story about the stove...
god- "don't touch the stove and obey me"
abraham- "ok"
god- "touch the stove" even though unbeknownst to him it's safe to do so
abraham-" why god, you said before, don't touch the stove"
god- "trust me"

it's a mind play...to see if one obeys.

 

[Me Myself]

I don't see that is what I'm saying, because that's not what I'm saying.

Are you saying that Abraham had the bible that we have today and that he knew about Jesus and that He was going to die on a cross at age 33 as a sacrifice for our sins?

Aren't those some pretty important factors when it comes to God's continuing revelations AFTER Abraham lived and died?

Not at all. They have nothing to do with the fact that this entity is asking Abraham to murder an inocent child and that Abraham thought it was GOOD TO BE OBIDIENT TO A DEITY THAT ASKS YOU THAT.

 

[Father Heathen]

But when we don't understand something, that doesn't mean we don't have an obligation to obey. Let me give you a good example:

When I was a bank manager, I had to enforce policies whether my employees fully understood the reasons behind the policies or not. I explained things as clearly as possible, but sometimes they just didn't get it. However, whether they "got it" or not, they still had better obey those policies, or go on down the road.

Okay, let's say your boss instructed all female employees to wear revealing and provocative clothing to the office. When asked to explain this new rule, your boss states that you simply don't understand and that you should trust him because he's your boss. Which is the right choice, ethics or obedience? By your logic, you'll comply, because maybe your objection is due to a lack of understanding, but you're still obligated to obey regardless, right?

 

[Kathryn]

but the story doesn't show anywhere where abraham questioned god...he just trusted god would provide a lamb ( i just checked to make sure so i don't :foot

so the same goes with the story about the stove...
god- "don't touch the stove and obey me"
abraham- "ok"
god- "touch the stove" even though unbeknownst to him it's safe to do so
abraham-" why god, you said before, don't touch the stove"
god- "trust me"

it's a mind play...to see if one obeys.

Sometimes it has nothing to do with a mind play. For instance, I am not playing mind games with my dogs when I take them to the vet, whether they think I am or not.

In other words, their lack of understandind doesn't negate or undermine my intentions.

 

[BobbyisStrange]

I don't see that is what I'm saying, because that's not what I'm saying.

Are you saying that Abraham had the bible that we have today and that he knew about Jesus and that He was going to die on a cross at age 33 as a sacrifice for our sins?

Aren't those some pretty important factors when it comes to God's continuing revelations AFTER Abraham lived and died?

I don't know if Abraham really existed so I'm not able to make claims I what sources he used...however to not avoid your question he did not have the bible as we know it today...however if the stories are true and Moses penned them (which he didn't) I don't think he knows the extent of their conversations and everything that was said between them....and I believe the first prophecy of a savior was mentioned in Genesis 3:15...so agian of Abraham existed, how do I know what he knew?

 

[Kathryn]

Okay, let's say your boss instructed all female employees to wear revealing and provocative clothing to the office. When asked to explain this new rule, your boss states that you simply don't understand and that you should trust him because he's your boss. Which is the right choice, ethics or obedience? By your logic, you'll comply, because maybe your objection is due to a lack of understanding, but you're still obligated to obey regardless, right?

If there were no written policies and no laws of the land regarding what clothing to wear, that would make a big difference.

But since we have evolved to the point where there ARE laws and there ARE written policies, we have a deeper understanding of the situation.

Also - say there were no laws, no written policies, no precedent (other than the fact that most other companies around had women wearing provocative clothing as a norm - remember that Abraham lived in a time and place where human sacrifices were not uncommon), but the boss KNEW that he was going to tell us when we got there, that he was really giving us the day off - those facts would make a difference too when it was all said and done.

 

[waitasec]

Sometimes it has nothing to do with a mind play. For instance, I am not playing mind games with my dogs when I take them to the vet, whether they think I am or not.

In other words, their lack of understandind doesn't negate or undermine my intentions.

imo, this story re-enforces how important blind faith means to god...
what i want to know is why is that so important?

 

[Me Myself]

I never claimed that we can't or shouldn't question or seek more wisdom or knowledge. In fact, God expects us to continue to seek more wisdom as we mature.

But when we don't understand something, that doesn't mean we don't have an obligation to obey. Let me give you a good example:

When I was a bank manager, I had to enforce policies whether my employees fully understood the reasons behind the policies or not. I explained things as clearly as possible, but sometimes they just didn't get it. However, whether they "got it" or not, they still had better obey those policies, or go on down the road.

We are talking about a deity that tells you to kill your own kid. The fact that one thinks there is something to understand is kind of scary, but could be appropiate. Know the fact that one doest understand and will do it anyways unless the deity stops him/her is scary as hell, and is not an personal decision that should be celebrated, it is one that should be reviled.

The fact that someone asks you to do something horrible and you dont understand why... how does that translate as "I am doing it of course" ??

 

[Kathryn]

imo, this story re-enforces how important blind faith means to god...
what i want to know is why is that so important?

Why is it so important that your young child obeys you? Why is it so important that a private in an infantry unit obeys his first sergeant?

 

[Father Heathen]

Why is it so important that your young child obeys you? Why is it so important that a private in an infantry unit obeys his first sergeant?

Obedience is important when established through trust and understanding. You don't do it through abusive mind games and manipulative tests. If I told my kid to do something immoral or unethical, and he/she refused due to principle, I would be proud of them.

Makes me a better parent that the abrahamic god. :yes:

 

[Me Myself]

Why is it so important that your young child obeys you? Why is it so important that a private in an infantry unit obeys his first sergeant?

If I tell my child "punch your brother in the face" and he doesn´t even ask me why with a face of "are you nuts?", I know I failed as a parent.

 

[waitasec]

Why is it so important that your young child obeys you? Why is it so important that a private in an infantry unit obeys his first sergeant?

Kathryn, my interaction with my son isn't based on blind faith though.

i tell him something, he disobeys, then MAYBE he'll listen to me the next time.


if i tell him something and he obeys, maybe it's because he learned his lesson by not obeying and figured out that mommy knows what the heck she's talking about...

 

[Kathryn]

We are talking about a deity that tells you to kill your own kid. The fact that one thinks there is something to understand is kind of scary, but could be appropiate. Know the fact that one doest understand and will do it anyways unless the deity stops him/her is scary as hell, and is not an personal decision that should be celebrated, it is one that should be reviled.

The fact that someone asks you to do something horrible and you dont understand why... how does that translate as "I am doing it of course" ??

Let's put some historical perspective on this.

In Abraham's time, human and child sacrifices were not at all uncommon. It wasn't some unheard of thing in pagan religions. It's not like Abraham would have thought the request was alien or outlandish - no matter how shocking it seems to us now.

The difference is that God knew that Isaac would be spared. He knew that He was setting up a scenario to display the concept of grace, and the differences between following His word, and the teachings of other pagan religions that did require such sacrifices.

 

[Father Heathen]

If I tell my child "punch your brother in the face" and he doesn´t even ask me why with a face of "are you nuts?", I know I failed as a parent.

Exactly.

 

[Me Myself]

I mean I would even punish the little brat if he did what I told him then! Of course I wouldnt tell him to punch his brother in the face, but still!

 

[Kathryn]

Kathryn, my interaction with my son isn't based on blind faith though.

i tell him something, he disobeys, then MAYBE he'll listen to me the next time.


if i tell him something and he obeys, maybe it's because he learned his lesson by not obeying that mommy knows what the heck she's talking about...

So your child only learns to obey by disobeying?

Wow, I didn't teach my kids that way at all.

 

[BobbyisStrange]

Let's put some historical perspective on this.

In Abraham's time, human and child sacrifices were not at all uncommon. It wasn't some unheard of thing in pagan religions. It's not like Abraham would have thought the request was alien or outlandish - no matter how shocking it seems to us now.

The difference is that God knew that Isaac would be spared. He knew that He was setting up a scenario to display the concept of grace, and the differences between following His word, and the teachings of other pagan religions that did require such sacrifices.

You're still not understanding the point...it doesn't matter what god knew in advance...it's about what Abraham thought and what he was going to do.

 

[Kathryn]

You're still not understanding the point...it doesn't matter what god knew in advance...it's about what Abraham thought and what he was going to do.

I understand your point, but you're only looking at half the equation.

 

[Kathryn]

I'm done repeating myself by the way. Please carry on without me.