For those who believe that only Christians go to heaven...

[darkmage121]

Logician, you have an really good point. In Wicca, we believe that any path is a good path, as long as you believe in something. We have a sacred text called the Wiccan Way in which it says that there is no one path to the Summerland (aka Heaven). I suggest you stop arguing with Christians. They have traded an open mind for a book (written by human hands) that supposedly tells them everything.

 

[Draka]

Logician, you have an really good point. In Wicca, we believe that any path is a good path, as long as you believe in something. We have a sacred text called the Wiccan Way in which it says that there is no one path to the Summerland (aka Heaven). I suggest you stop arguing with Christians. They have traded an open mind for a book (written by human hands) that supposedly tells them everything.

We have a sacred text??? In all my years I haven't found any "sacred text". We have many informative and beautiful things written, I know that, but what "sacred text" are you referring to exactly?

 

[darkmage121]

Ok, maybe not sacred texts, but oral traditions that are passed down. Eventually someone wrote that down too. I can e-mail you a copy if you like. My coven has that in our BOS.

 

[McBell]

We have a sacred text??? In all my years I haven't found any "sacred text". We have many informative and beautiful things written, I know that, but what "sacred text" are you referring to exactly?

Why wouldn't you?
Do have some texts that you consider sacred?
Would they not be 'sacred texts'?

Seems to me that the term 'Wicca' is even more a generic term than 'Christian'.

I am not meaning this is a negative way, just that the term 'Wicca' is an umbrella term for so many differing paths.
And that at least some of those paths have texts they consider "sacred".

Though it is my understanding that "Wicca" does not have a universal text that is considered "sacred" like Christians have the Bible and Muslims have the Koran.

 

[Draka]

Ok, maybe not sacred texts, but oral traditions that are passed down. Eventually someone wrote that down too. I can e-mail you a copy if you like. My coven has that in our BOS.

Oh, ok, it was something someone written and adopted into your BOS. That makes more sense. I have lots of writings in mine, mostly my own, but some inspired from others. I just never thought of referring to them as "sacred". Guess they are to me, just never used that word before for them.

 

[Storm]

Why wouldn't you?
Do have some texts that you consider sacred?
Would they not be 'sacred texts'?

Seems to me that the term 'Wicca' is even more a generic term than 'Christian'.

I am not meaning this is a negative way, just that the term 'Wicca' is an umbrella term for so many differing paths.
And that at least some of those paths have texts they consider "sacred".

Though it is my understanding that "Wicca" does not have a universal text that is considered "sacred" like Christians have the Bible and Muslims have the Koran.

It's been my experience that neopagans shy away from giving anything that much authority.

 

[J Bryson]

Sacred is a good word. The Abrahamic paths don't have a monopoly on it. Feel free.

 

[Draka]

Why wouldn't you?
Do have some texts that you consider sacred?
Would they not be 'sacred texts'?

Seems to me that the term 'Wicca' is even more a generic term than 'Christian'.

I am not meaning this is a negative way, just that the term 'Wicca' is an umbrella term for so many differing paths.
And that at least some of those paths have texts they consider "sacred".

Though it is my understanding that "Wicca" does not have a universal text that is considered "sacred" like Christians have the Bible and Muslims have the Koran.

As I replied to darkmage, I have my own BOS that could be sacred to me, but I have just never heard anyone say that Wicca universally has sacred texts. That's exactly it, about the paths thing. With so many pantheons that can be used in Wicca the "sacred texts" are more of a personal or coven thing then they are really religion wide. There are only a few things which can usually be considered universal for Wiccans. The Rede, karma, reincarnation, and balance. There are some others of course, but those are the main points I can think of. Which gods and goddesses to honor, what names to call them, how to relate to them,...those things are very personal.

 

[roli]

Can you?

That might be true...if and only if Christians have gotten lucky and got it right. There's also a huge chance they are wrong as well.

The difference with christianity is that we have the Holy Spirit inside that affirms without doubt, our names are written in heaven and that we have been reconciled to God . How does one know they have him, because their life ,attitude, behavior, desires have changed, they trust and have confidence in and pursue Jesus as their source of life and worship him with their entire being because we are in love with Him.
That relationship and assurance, the world will never comprehend unless they receive Christ as their savior and the promise of the Holy Ghost

I'm absolutely, positively sure I have been presented with evidence that substantiates my beliefs and discredits yours. That's why I believe as I do. I wouldn't believe how I do without having a valid reason to.

I am glad you feel you found the truth.
Do you have a two way relationship with your god, or some kind of fellowship with your God.
Do you sing praise to it's name and do you invoke it's presence to come down and refresh you, and fill you with it's power.....just curious how you interact with your god

Yeppers. I don't call it "Heaven", but yeah, excitement, joy, assurance...have all that in spades. Thanks for asking.

..wow that's awesome..sounds like your spiritually fulfilled.

Your religion is based on just as much mythology as mine is. Try to remember that

If you think Jesus along with his teachings and the whole of scripture are mythical, you either have'nt read much on history and the evidence for his existence or your just siding with the mainstream society..who by the way wants to eradicate the whole of cHristianity as a whole and start by eliminating Jesus Christ as a central figure and major theme of history since.

When Jesus Christ and christianity entered into world history ,it has never been the same since. Jesus Christ and his true followers,born again ,spirit filled followers (not those catholic fanatical crusaders) have impacted the world beyond what any skeptics dare to acknowledge. History and the permiating influence of the word of God around the world has rocked history and the leftists who try to rule it with an iron fist

 

[McBell]

*pulls out rubber raft*

 

[Katzpur]

[Christians] have traded an open mind for a book (written by human hands) that supposedly tells them everything.

See... There you go again. Painting all Christians with the same brush. When will you realize that it doesn't work that way?

 

[Muffled]

Logician, you have an really good point. In Wicca, we believe that any path is a good path, as long as you believe in something. We have a sacred text called the Wiccan Way in which it says that there is no one path to the Summerland (aka Heaven). I suggest you stop arguing with Christians. They have traded an open mind for a book (written by human hands) that supposedly tells them everything.

I would tend to agree with that but path is a bit misleading. There are no yellow brick roads or highway maps that tell you how to get to Heaven. Hell is easier to find. Just bore an extremely deep hole into the earth until you reach fire. Heaven is out there among the billions of stars and plenty of wrong directions that can be taken. Christians have a sure way of getting there but I have never seen a description of another way. Perhaps you could elucidate us.

Once you have the truth why would you want to entertain falsehoods. In my estimation the Bible does not tell us everything but Jesus can because He is the omniscient.

 

[Draka]

I would tend to agree with that but path is a bit misleading. There are no yellow brick roads or highway maps that tell you how to get to Heaven. Hell is easier to find. Just bore an extremely deep hole into the earth until you reach fire.

:spit::biglaugh: OMG! You actually believe that? We can drill our way to hell? That has to be the single most ridiculously stupid thing I think I have ever read on this forum...and considering some of the prize threads on this forum...that's saying a LOT.

Heaven is out there among the billions of stars and plenty of wrong directions that can be taken.

Really? Would that be Vulcan or Romulas? :areyoucra Is warp drive necessary or would a transporter get us there?

Christians have a sure way of getting there but I have never seen a description of another way. Perhaps you could elucidate us

Perhaps you have never seriously looked? Though, truly, if you honestly believe that Hell is inside the planet Earth and Heaven is in a galaxy far far away I really don't hold out much hope for you to grasp other concepts.

Once you have the truth why would you want to entertain falsehoods.

That's why I don't entertain Christianity.
Seriously though, what, besides the bible, do you have that absolutely GAURANTEES that you have any "truth" whatsoever? :areyoucra

In my estimation the Bible does not tell us everything but Jesus can because He is the omniscient.

Oh boy. The omniscient argument. What fun. :sarcastic

 

[Jackytar]

I participated in a forum that discussed politics wherein a fundamentalist Christian there routinely reminded me that I was going to hell for my beliefs.

Of course, as a fundamentalist his view was that to get into heaven it wasn't enough to be a good person or even a Christian. You had to be "saved" which I likened to a ritual at some fraternity. To his credit, he did somewhat acknowledge that it was possible to drill into this logic from many angles. What of children or, say, soldiers who die before becoming saved? What of retarded people? And how retarded does one have to be before becoming "exempt"? What is the cut-off point? What of all the folks who lived before Christ? And what of tribal people who never heard of Jesus? (And so on.) His answer, to no surprise, was that we cannot know the ways of God or something to that effect. As if it made any sense to retreat to that corner only when it suited him.

But my favorite exchange was in a discussion of the death penalty which he strongly favored. After getting him to acknowledge that even persons who committed the most heinous of crimes had a place in heaven if they later became "truly" saved, I put it to him that by killing that person now, before he had a shot at redemption, that persons, not God, were exercising providence over that man's soul.

I also pointed out that my dear mother is an atheist (a fact I didn't find out until recently). The sweetest, kindest, most humble person whom I ever known. A person who devoted her professional life to advocating and caring for sick and abandoned children. A person utterly devoid of meanness in any form. If I accepted his beliefs, became saved and went to heaven I would in fact be in the worst kind of hell knowing that she was enduring unimaginable suffering for an eternity.

He was silent on the last two points but before long, when the topic moved along to something else, he resumed damning me to hell on a regular basis.

I say all this not to debate the logic of religious dogma with Christians or those of other religions. Only to point out the folly of doing so. Christians don't give a damn about logic. The fundamentalists actually celebrate anti-intellectualism. You may as well spend your time trying to teach your dog to sing.

Jackytar

 

[Muffled]

I participated in a forum that discussed politics wherein a fundamentalist Christian there routinely reminded me that I was going to hell for my beliefs.

Of course, as a fundamentalist his view was that to get into heaven it wasn't enough to be a good person or even a Christian. You had to be "saved" which I likened to a ritual at some fraternity. To his credit, he did somewhat acknowledge that it was possible to drill into this logic from many angles. What of children or, say, soldiers who die before becoming saved? What of retarded people? And how retarded does one have to be before becoming "exempt"? What is the cut-off point? What of all the folks who lived before Christ? And what of tribal people who never heard of Jesus? (And so on.) His answer, to no surprise, was that we cannot know the ways of God or something to that effect. As if it made any sense to retreat to that corner only when it suited him.

But my favorite exchange was in a discussion of the death penalty which he strongly favored. After getting him to acknowledge that even persons who committed the most heinous of crimes had a place in heaven if they later became "truly" saved, I put it to him that by killing that person now, before he had a shot at redemption, that persons, not God, were exercising providence over that man's soul.

I also pointed out that my dear mother is an atheist (a fact I didn't find out until recently). The sweetest, kindest, most humble person whom I ever known. A person who devoted her professional life to advocating and caring for sick and abandoned children. A person utterly devoid of meanness in any form. If I accepted his beliefs, became saved and went to heaven I would in fact be in the worst kind of hell knowing that she was enduring unimaginable suffering for an eternity.

He was silent on the last two points but before long, when the topic moved along to something else, he resumed damning me to hell on a regular basis.

I say all this not to debate the logic of religious dogma with Christians or those of other religions. Only to point out the folly of doing so. Christians don't give a damn about logic. The fundamentalists actually celebrate anti-intellectualism. You may as well spend your time trying to teach your dog to sing.

Jackytar

As usual with generalities you have encountered an exception with me although I will have to admit that logic is not infallible.

That is a totally illogical statement. If you were saved you would be in peace not troubled. So are you saying that you would have to stay unsaved so you could be just as damned to Hell as your mother? My wife has terrible pain but I have no desire to go through the pain she is going through. Instead I could wish she was without unhealthy pain as I am.

 

[Jackytar]

I say all this not to debate the logic of religious dogma with Christians or those of other religions. Only to point out the folly of doing so.

Jackytar

 

[Muffled]

Jackytar

What you really mean is that you think mind games define reality. How then do you account for illusions and delusions? It is not our thinking that defines reality but reality that allows our thinking apprehension.

 

[somebody1982]

John 14:6 Jesus said , "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."
Also in Acts 4:12 it talks about Jesus when it says there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.

 

[Katzpur]

John 14:6 Jesus said , "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."
Also in Acts 4:12 it talks about Jesus when it says there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.

I think all Christians believe those verses to be true. The problem is, we interpret them differently. It would be helpful if you were to actually explain what you believe them to mean. They could mean (1) only those who follow Christ's commandments will go to Heaven, (2) only those who believe in Christ will go to Heaven, (3) because Christ offered Himself as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind, all mankind will go to Heaven. See what I mean?

 

[Katzpur]

You're having a lot of fun here, aren't you, Draka?