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For those who believe that only Christians go to heaven...

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Yes I do appreciate those traits. You would like to have a God that repesents your views?

I do not presume to know the mind of God. I would, however, hope for a reasonable being.

Let us view this. A god that doesn't kill off evil people would lead to a world where evil holds sway. It would be a world where women are raped, people are killed and tortured for fun and profit, where women are kidnapped into slavery as prostitutes, and where an honest man is a dead man.

And what of the innocent that God kills in the Bible? What of the women (virgins) captured by the Israelites to be used as slaves and concubines? (Under Gods orders) The infants dashed in the streets of Nineveh? (Gods prophesy) The profits gained by the Israelites as they swept aside city by city on their march to the promised land? (Gathered under Gods orders)

That is what Heaven is like. There are no evil people to be cruel to there; there are no other gods to be jealous of there; there is no need to manipulate because there is nothing that needs to be changed there; and all who are there are vindicated so there is no need for judgment there.

Again, you admire a cruel, jealous, manipulative and judgmental god.

So here is God's flaw that He shows mercy to the wicked letting them out of hell for a time so that they may have an opportunity to repent. The wicked get punished for the evil they do but it certainly can't be as bad as being in hell.

So, I am not "evil" or "wicked", yet I do not worship or believe in the Biblical god, am I destined for the fate of the evil, or the fate of the good? Am I given the opportunity to "repent"? And if, out of moral scruples, I refuse to bow down and worship the god who kills innocents, what then my fate?

So what then of good people. Do they have to endure evil forever or spend all their time in Heaven out of body. NO. Good people get to have a time on earth without evil but for that to happen evil people have to be bound in hell.

Then the evil, and those who were not evil, but do not worship the Biblical god are bound in hell to suffer for eternity?
 
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roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
So tell me then. If God doesn't want anyone going to hell, and God is all powerful, how can God not get what he wants. How do you know that you have been told the truth about what God wants. Is it not presumtious of you to say you know for sure there is a hell and you know what God wants. It is just possible there is many things we don't know about God because we've been fed erroneous information. We very likely need to redefine God because if he is all loving, all merciful and all powerful, there should be absolutely nothing he needs and no way he couldn't get what he needs if he needs anything, which by the way I don't think he does. I think it is the clergy down through the ages that have needed something, not God.
Man has been redefining God since he was created.
You seem to mention all the appealing attributes as so many do,but never mention his holiness,justice, wrath, anger, vengence and discipline.
Why do men always make such weak and one side arguments towards God such as.
I don't believe in god who could alllow evil !
How could a God inflict so much evil ,if he is suppose to be loving merciful and forgivng.........!!!!
...and so on!


The problem is that man has no comprehension of God's splendor and brilliance attributed to His glory, or his Holiness and absolute sinless,perfect state of divinity.

Is it possible that He is,"Justice and truth" , he is Holy and perfect.
 

challupa

Well-Known Member
Man has been redefining God since he was created.
You seem to mention all the appealing attributes as so many do,but never mention his holiness,justice, wrath, anger, vengence and discipline.
Why do men always make such weak and one side arguments towards God such as.
I don't believe in god who could alllow evil !
How could a God inflict so much evil ,if he is suppose to be loving merciful and forgivng.........!!!!
...and so on!


The problem is that man has no comprehension of God's splendor and brilliance attributed to His glory, or his Holiness and absolute sinless,perfect state of divinity.

Is it possible that He is,"Justice and truth" , he is Holy and perfect.
Those are good questions. I don't see god as either evil or good. I just see him as being. We as humans create all the good or "evil" in this world and we are also responsible for changing that. That is my thoughts on it anyway.

I don't cling to the definition of God being wrathful, or a disciplinarian. It doesn't make sense to me. I have an equally hard time understanding it when people do. It doesn't make sense to me that God needs to be judgmental. I think we do that quite well all by ourselves.
 

HoldemDB9

Active Member
I believe if a person wants to repent when they die that they go to heaven and accept Jesus Christ as their saviour. Non Christians aswell...
It's not fair that some people never heard of Christianity so I think they can come to Heaven too:angel2:

Makes sense.
 

lockyfan

Active Member
ok how about this.

Why do we believe all people go to Heaven?

The bible is quite clear in the old testament that humans will reside upon the eartn forever, that is to say righteous humans

The Heavenly thing comes in the new testament, when Christ made his covenant with the anointed christians. 144000 faithful christians who have the heavenly resurrection.

Any person is able to get this knowledge and become one of these people because as Jesus said, this Good News of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all nations and then the end will come.

So its not like its unfair, because the bible also states that those who die (before the great and fear inspiring day of armageddon) they have the hope of a resurrection to the earth. For the unrighteous there is a time of judgement for them where they too can then become righteous and then to a perfect life without anything we see today that is horrible and nasty.

The bible promises us this
 

SpiritualBeing

Active Member
Brother, I do not think that your religion matters. I believe thjat everyone who leads a good life will enter heaven. For example, my mother and father do not believe in God, yet I believe that they wil enter into heaven because they have lived good lives and abided by the law. They have never hurt anyone or killed anyone.

If you have lived a good life, regardless of your religion, then I believe that you will enter into Heaven.

:candle:
 

McBell

Unbound
ok how about this.

Why do we believe all people go to Heaven?

The bible is quite clear in the old testament that humans will reside upon the eartn forever, that is to say righteous humans

The Heavenly thing comes in the new testament, when Christ made his covenant with the anointed christians. 144000 faithful christians who have the heavenly resurrection.

Any person is able to get this knowledge and become one of these people because as Jesus said, this Good News of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all nations and then the end will come.

So its not like its unfair, because the bible also states that those who die (before the great and fear inspiring day of armageddon) they have the hope of a resurrection to the earth. For the unrighteous there is a time of judgement for them where they too can then become righteous and then to a perfect life without anything we see today that is horrible and nasty.

The bible promises us this
Unlike you, not everyone has put all their eggs in one basket.
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
ok how about this.

Why do we believe all people go to Heaven?

The bible is quite clear in the old testament that humans will reside upon the eartn forever, that is to say righteous humans

The Heavenly thing comes in the new testament, when Christ made his covenant with the anointed christians. 144000 faithful christians who have the heavenly resurrection.

Any person is able to get this knowledge and become one of these people because as Jesus said, this Good News of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all nations and then the end will come.

So its not like its unfair, because the bible also states that those who die (before the great and fear inspiring day of armageddon) they have the hope of a resurrection to the earth. For the unrighteous there is a time of judgement for them where they too can then become righteous and then to a perfect life without anything we see today that is horrible and nasty.

The bible promises us this
Your theology or doctrine is slightly off from what the new test is actually saying

Good people don't go to heaven
The 144,000 are not good christians, they are Jews ,specificially and of the tribes of Judah.
All people don't die and go to heaven , they go to be judged
Unrighteous people don't die and become righteous, at least not with the God of the bible
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Brother, I do not think that your religion matters. I believe thjat everyone who leads a good life will enter heaven. For example, my mother and father do not believe in God, yet I believe that they wil enter into heaven because they have lived good lives and abided by the law. They have never hurt anyone or killed anyone.

If you have lived a good life, regardless of your religion, then I believe that you will enter into Heaven.

:candle:

I must conclude you get your beliefs from sources outside of the bible.
 

lockyfan

Active Member
Brother, I do not think that your religion matters. I believe thjat everyone who leads a good life will enter heaven. For example, my mother and father do not believe in God, yet I believe that they wil enter into heaven because they have lived good lives and abided by the law. They have never hurt anyone or killed anyone.

If you have lived a good life, regardless of your religion, then I believe that you will enter into Heaven.

:candle:

Psalm 37:11
But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

Psalm 37:29
The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.

Are the righteous possessing the earth right now? I dont think so!

Isaiah 45:18
For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else

The earth was created to be inhabited.

Psalms 115:16
As regards the heavens, to Jehovah the heavens belong,
But the earth he has given to the sons of men

So men dont belong in the heavens.

John 14:2-3
In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be

The 144 000 have a special place in heaven for them.


James 2:26
Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

James 2:21-24
Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? You behold that [his] faith worked along with his works and by [his] works [his] faith was perfected, and the scripture was fulfilled which says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called “Jehovah’s friend.”
YOU see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone


As you see you have to have both faith and works no one or the other. So living by the law does not exactly mean you go to heaven because you need to live by Gods Laws not mans

Psalm 119:1
Happy are the ones faultless in [their] way, The ones walking in the law of Jehovah.

James 1:25
But he who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom and who persists in [it], this [man], because he has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, will be happy in his doing [it].

Unlike you, not everyone has put all their eggs in one basket.

Matthew 7:13-14
“Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessnes

Matthew 6:33
“Keep on, then, seeking first the kingdom and his righteousness, and all these [other] things will be added to YOU


1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth


Your theology or doctrine is slightly off from what the new test is actually saying

Good people don't go to heaven
The true faithful Christians go to heaven.

The 144,000 are not good christians, they are Jews ,specificially and of the tribes of Judah.
Yeah, but all men come down from the tribes of Judah. Also in Revelation it talks of the fours winds being held back until Gods anointed have been sealed

Revelation 7:1-3
I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of the living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying: ‘Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.’”


The last supper when Jesus broke the bread, that was a covenant between him and the anointed. Not him and the Jews, but him and his anointed class. It replaced the covenant between Jehovah and the Jews.

John the Baptist who was a man know as a great man of God is not part of the 144 000 because he died before the new covenant took place. Otherwise he would be part of it as well.


All people don't die and go to heaven , they go to be judged
They are raised to be judged after the abysing of Satan and his demons. After Armageddon. Along with the righteous ones who are raised as well.

Unrighteous people don't die and become righteous, at least not with the God of the bible
they have the chance to repent and learn of what God wants of them. Before they are sent to destruction
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
I guess maybe a better question would be "why do some Christians seem to think they have monopoly on the concept of heaven?"

Christianity isn't the only religion that has an afterlife concept of some sort of bliss, ascension or closeness to deity. Some Christians seem to think they have rights over who gets in though...as if it is an exclusive country club...or at least they'd like it to be. Goodness knows these self-righteous Christians would hate to think they've bowed and cowered and thought themselves better all their lives for something that someone who did none of that gets as well. Kind of a kick in the shins huh?
 

lockyfan

Active Member
Matthew 7:13-20
Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.

“Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]

Please tell me now that the churches that condone sex outside of marraige, ask people to murder each other in the name of God and Country, that tell their preachers not to use Gods name, that they are the people who will be entering through the narrow gate.

it just confirms to me more, how desperate the times are and how much I like the idea of remaining neutral in politics and war and by doing this actually voting for Gods Kingdom to come upon the earth.

I know my beliefs tend to lead me more towards loving my neighbour, than the anglican ones I was brought up upon.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Matthew 7:13-20
Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.

“Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]

Please tell me now that the churches that condone sex outside of marraige, ask people to murder each other in the name of God and Country, that tell their preachers not to use Gods name, that they are the people who will be entering through the narrow gate.

it just confirms to me more, how desperate the times are and how much I like the idea of remaining neutral in politics and war and by doing this actually voting for Gods Kingdom to come upon the earth.

I know my beliefs tend to lead me more towards loving my neighbour, than the anglican ones I was brought up upon.

:rolleyes: "Narrow gate" = exclusive country club

You just made my point for me.

1. There is nothing inherently wrong with sex outside of marriage.

2. What religions do you think are asking people to murder for them? :areyoucra

3. What the heck does god's name have to do with the price of potatoes in China anyway?
 

lockyfan

Active Member
:rolleyes: "Narrow gate" = exclusive country club
Not so exclusive, that all people cant try to get there

You just made my point for me.
1. There is nothing inherently wrong with sex outside of marriage.
Apart from the whole immorality of it and the fact that sex outside marriage causes more problems than it would if you only had sex inside marriage

2. What religions do you think are asking people to murder for them? :areyoucra
Oh please, you cant see it? When all these people go to war for "God and Country"and all their priests are saying "yeah go for it kill each other God is on your side" and you cant see it?

3. What the heck does god's name have to do with the price of potatoes in China anyway?
Everything actually. You see if he wasnt challenged and slandered, then there would be no price on potatos in China.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Not so exclusive, that all people cant try to get there

You just made my point for me.
How so? As I said, there are many religions that have an afterlife concept, not just Christians. You don't have a monopoly on it. So that means that what it takes to "try" to get there is different for different religions. There is no gaurantee that your requirements are the actual requirements...if there even are requirements.

Apart from the whole immorality of it and the fact that sex outside marriage causes more problems than it would if you only had sex inside marriage
What, pray tell, makes it immoral? And what, pray tell, are the problems that an unmarried commited couple are going to have with having sex that a married couple isn't going to have? A peice of paper doesn't cure all ills you know and doesn't magically wipe away any problems.

Oh please, you cant see it? When all these people go to war for "God and Country"and all their priests are saying "yeah go for it kill each other God is on your side" and you cant see it?
Oh, you mean the Abrahamic religions? Yeah, I guess they have that going for them. Good thing my religion isn't guilty of that nonsense then huh?


Everything actually. You see if he wasnt challenged and slandered, then there would be no price on potatos in China.

You said the bit about telling preachers not to use god's name. I just want to know what that is suppose to do to prevent someone from getting to heaven. I can't see what the heck you are meaning by that. As if not saying a name gets you condemned? What the heck is this nonsense you are spewing?
 

SpiritualBeing

Active Member
Can I say that I think we are getting a bit side-tracked in here. How did we get from talking about heaven, to talking about pre-marital sex. I Think that we should keep in mind the discussion.

Just thought I'd say so that the discussion doesn't get shut down.

:candle:
 

SpiritualBeing

Active Member
I must conclude you get your beliefs from sources outside of the bible.

Excuse me for sounding a bit forward, but I do not think it is your place to comment on where I get my beliefs from. I believe that a person who believes in God will enter into Heaven, and a person who does not believe in God will enter into a form of afterlife.

You see, I think that Heaven is the Garden of Eden, and those who believe in the Father will enter into that Garden, but I also believe that there is another place set aside in Heaven for those that did not believe, yet lived a good life.

Does that clear up the doubts that you had over my beliefs? I am sorry if I did sound a bit aggressive, but I don't think that it's the place of anyone else to question my beliefs.

:candle:
 

lockyfan

Active Member
. I believe that a person who believes in God will enter into Heaven, and a person who does not believe in God will enter into a form of afterlife.
How do you work that one out?
You see, I think that Heaven is the Garden of Eden, and those who believe in the Father will enter into that Garden, but I also believe that there is another place set aside in Heaven for those that did not believe, yet lived a good life.
:candle:

I ask respectfully. Where did you get this idea from?

How so? As I said, there are many religions that have an afterlife concept, not just Christians. You don't have a monopoly on it. So that means that what it takes to "try" to get there is different for different religions. There is no gaurantee that your requirements are the actual requirements...if there even are requirements.
Accurate knowledge of the truth is one thing
Love of God is Another
Putting Gods Kingdom before all other things is another.
Use of the name of the Sovereign Lord of the universe Jehovah is another.
Spreading the Good News of the Kingdom is another
Living a moral life, which includes staying away from Sex outside of Marriage, loving your neighbour, not killing anyone.

All basic principles in the bible.

I like your religion, the one of "love" because I know that is the main this that Gods is and wants us to do. Love one another.

God is Love. 1 John 4:8

What, pray tell, makes it immoral? And what, pray tell, are the problems that an unmarried commited couple are going to have with having sex that a married couple isn't going to have? A piece of paper doesn't cure all ills you know and doesn't magically wipe away any problems.

Oh only the fact that it is a bible based belief of mine and the bible mentions the fornicators and adulterers to be part of the world that is gonig to be replaced by his kingdom.

Sex outside marriage rips away at the very moral fibre of human society. Trace society back to when it became an acceptable thing to have sex with as many partners as possible, go before that, there werent as many problems in society or even in marriage itself.

i know from experience with people that i know, that it has literally ruined their lives. It has caused more heartache, especially when people are too busy trying to outdo the last person that their partner slept with. Which no matter what is always in the back subconciously in most peoples minds. It doesnt help the children that come out of it wither and it doesnt help when you get married to someone who has had heaps of partners either.

This is way off topic
Oh, you mean the Abrahamic religions? Yeah, I guess they have that going for them. Good thing my religion isn't guilty of that nonsense then huh?

What religion is that? Apart from Love. I know my religion has nothing to do with the way this world works at all. Especially in the warmongering department, which almost all other religions do.

You said the bit about telling preachers not to use god's name. I just want to know what that is suppose to do to prevent someone from getting to heaven. I can't see what the heck you are meaning by that. As if not saying a name gets you condemned? What the heck is this nonsense you are spewing?

An Accurate knowledge of the truth gets you to heaven, that includes the use of God's name

its the first thing in the Lords prayer actually, that Gods name be "hallowed" or "sanctified"

Lets get back on track, if you want to continue discussing this, we should open up a new thread.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Accurate knowledge of the truth is one thing
Love of God is Another
Putting Gods Kingdom before all other things is another.
Use of the name of the Sovereign Lord of the universe Jehovah is another.
Spreading the Good News of the Kingdom is another
Living a moral life, which includes staying away from Sex outside of Marriage, loving your neighbour, not killing anyone.

All basic principles in the bible.
Which is fine if your religion has anything to do with the bible. However, it means nothing to those religions who are not based on the bible at all.

I like your religion, the one of "love" because I know that is the main this that Gods is and wants us to do. Love one another.

God is Love. 1 John 4:8
I'm Wiccan. Her law is love unto ALL beings.


Oh only the fact that it is a bible based belief of mine and the bible mentions the fornicators and adulterers to be part of the world that is gonig to be replaced by his kingdom.
That's nice, but again it means nothing to those who do not believe in the bible.

Sex outside marriage rips away at the very moral fibre of human society. Trace society back to when it became an acceptable thing to have sex with as many partners as possible, go before that, there werent as many problems in society or even in marriage itself.

i know from experience with people that i know, that it has literally ruined their lives. It has caused more heartache, especially when people are too busy trying to outdo the last person that their partner slept with. Which no matter what is always in the back subconciously in most peoples minds. It doesnt help the children that come out of it wither and it doesnt help when you get married to someone who has had heaps of partners either.
And I know from the experience that I had that the absolute worst times in my life have been while I was married. I can also say entirely truthfully that the relationships I have had and the sex I have had outside of marriage have been far better and healthier for me that my 2 marriages. You can't speak for everyone and use blanket statements when they certainly don't cover everyone. You certainly can't blame sex outside of marriage for societal problems and whatnot.

This is way off topic
Maybe, maybe not...as you use it for a criteria as to who gets into heaven and isn't that what this thread is really about?


What religion is that? Apart from Love. I know my religion has nothing to do with the way this world works at all. Especially in the warmongering department, which almost all other religions do.
Again, my religion is Wicca. As far as I know, no Wiccan ever started any war or called for any bloodshed. How many have killed for Jesus and Jehovah though?



An Accurate knowledge of the truth gets you to heaven, that includes the use of God's name

its the first thing in the Lords prayer actually, that Gods name be "hallowed" or "sanctified"
She has many names.

Lets get back on track, if you want to continue discussing this, we should open up a new thread.
Why? Doesn't this have to do with why you think only certain privileged few will make it to heaven? Isn't that what this thread is about?
 

lockyfan

Active Member
The extra stuff that we were talking about is what was off thread.

Wiccan hey? Cool

We dont fight in wars, vote for any nations and stay neutral in all those things.

Heaven isnt for everyone.
 
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