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For those who believe that only Christians go to heaven...

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
wow, you make god sound like a self-centered sociopath.

What a suprize! God is self centered...

God who created everything by himslef for himself is concerned with only his own pleasure.
How is this such a shocker for anyone considering the idea of a God? Why does it bother them? It seems pretty straighforward to me. It is all about God.
 

JMorris

Democratic Socialist
And the fruit begins to rot...

You say it seems God has only terror to offer. Does it really matter what he has to offer? If he is real and the One who breathed into you the air of existance that use to condemn him with, what reason would he have for you?
No offense, just philosophizing about God. If you don't believe in God to begin with than it doesn't really matter.
Thanks for the reply.

if god is going to do nothing than terrorize us, why create us in the first place? to appease some sadistic urge?

what reason would he have for me? i guess to fill me with fear & loathing. but better yet, why do i need a god like that?
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
if god is going to do nothing than terrorize us, why create us in the first place? to appease some sadistic urge?

what reason would he have for me? i guess to fill me with fear & loathing. but better yet, why do i need a god like that?

I suppose we will all find out one day.

Why do you need a God like that? Well it is quite simple if God is real. You need a God like that to exist.
Of course if there is no God, than this dialog you and I are having means didley.
 

JMorris

Democratic Socialist
I suppose we will all find out one day.

Why do you need a God like that? Well it is quite simple if God is real. You need a God like that to exist.
Of course if there is no God, than this dialog you and I are having means didley.

if there were only 2 options. a god of terror, or non-existence, which would be preferable?

if god is truly as terrible as you describe, why would i assume existence is preferable to non-existence?
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
if god is truly as terrible as you describe
As I describe?

Many times in the bible God is called great and terrible.
So, like Larry Flint, who said "don't hate me because God made women so beautiful, I am just the one showing you what he made". (Of course I changed his exact wording, but it is the same thing.)

You see with all that terrbileness comes great promises too. So it would be completely to your benefit to come before God fear and trembling if God is real.

However, as pointed out before if there is no God, than continue as you were.
 

JMorris

Democratic Socialist
As I describe?

Many times in the bible God is called great and terrible.
So, like Larry Flint, who said "don't hate me because God made women so beautiful, I am just the one showing you what he made". (Of course I changed his exact wording, but it is the same thing.)

You see with all that terrbileness comes great promises too. So it would be completely to your benefit to come before God fear and trembling if God is real.

However, as pointed out before if there is no God, than continue as you were.

well....that was how you described him. i could ask 10 different Christians to describe their perception of god, and i would probably get 10 different answers. members of the same religion dont even have the same definitions.

your perception of god isnt likely going to mirror anyone elses. and vice versa. so, from my perspective, as a non-believer, it is literally "your god", and no one elses.

im not interested in debating your definition of god. your definition is as acceptable to me as anyone elses. but just because you describe him this way, dosent mean he is actually this way. if he exists at all. but "your god" has just as much a chance to exist anyone elses.

im a bit tired, so i might be going off in left field here. what im trying to say, is i dont think anyone really knows how to be "saved" because no one really knows god.:thud:
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
what im trying to say, is i dont think anyone really knows how to be "saved" because no one really knows god.:thud:

No problem, JMorris.
I understand perfectly what you are saying. That is why I am such a staunch advocate for not institutionalizing religion. The idea of God is infinite and for the most part unknowable in the sense of mastery of said subject.

However, for me I think the truth is contained in the bible, and the things I speak of about God and his terribleness are just reflections of what is in the bible. Now if I offer an interpretation about God than we are now talking about me and not God.

Do you spend much time in the bible? I only ask because it only takes a few minutes to find God deals with the world in ways we can only perceive as terrible.
 

JMorris

Democratic Socialist
No problem, JMorris.
I understand perfectly what you are saying. That is why I am such a staunch advocate for not institutionalizing religion. The idea of God is infinite and for the most part unknowable in the sense of mastery of said subject.

However, for me I think the truth is contained in the bible, and the things I speak of about God and his terribleness are just reflections of what is in the bible. Now if I offer an interpretation about God than we are now talking about me and not God.

Do you spend much time in the bible? I only ask because it only takes a few minutes to find God deals with the world in ways we can only perceive as terrible.

i agree with you that spirituality should not be institutionalized. and its religion that i have the biggest problem with, not so much someone's interpretation of god.

but when you are talking or debating with someone about god, you are debating their own personal interpretation of god, not necessarily the true nature of god himself (if there is a god). so in the end, we are talking about you, and not necessarily god himself.

no i havent spent much time on the bible, ive read a bit of it, but not much. i never saw much point, as far as my own spiritual growth is concerned. i dont believe i would find any more truth about god in the bible than i would any other book. id rather work out on my own what i think about god (or the lack there of).

personally i dont believe in a "god". i dont have a certain beliefe in anything, since there are an infinite number of possibilities. but for myself, the most plausible answer is that there would a higher consciousness. something that just is, didnt create us, dosent look over us, dosent worry about us, just is. whether it was created along with the universe, or is the universe itself, i wouldnt know of course. and as far as the "after-life" goes, i wouldnt know about that either, and im not really concered about it, since, in the end, ill be where ever i am, or i wont be anywhere. either way. but i also know that this theory may be way off as well.
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
i agree with you that spirituality should not be institutionalized. and its religion that i have the biggest problem with, not so much someone's interpretation of god.

but when you are talking or debating with someone about god, you are debating their own personal interpretation of god, not necessarily the true nature of god himself (if there is a god). so in the end, we are talking about you, and not necessarily god himself.

no i havent spent much time on the bible, ive read a bit of it, but not much. i never saw much point, as far as my own spiritual growth is concerned. i dont believe i would find any more truth about god in the bible than i would any other book. id rather work out on my own what i think about god (or the lack there of).

personally i dont believe in a "god". i dont have a certain beliefe in anything, since there are an infinite number of possibilities. but for myself, the most plausible answer is that there would a higher consciousness. something that just is, didnt create us, dosent look over us, dosent worry about us, just is. whether it was created along with the universe, or is the universe itself, i wouldnt know of course. and as far as the "after-life" goes, i wouldnt know about that either, and im not really concered about it, since, in the end, ill be where ever i am, or i wont be anywhere. either way. but i also know that this theory may be way off as well.

Honest and refreshing. thanks for sharing.

In my own life, I had a similar path. I realized one day after reading Spinoza and a lot of other books that fall into the philosophy section of the library, that all these ideas I am reading about came from other people just like me. As such, they were open to being wrong, but helpful none the less.
I decided if all these men and women could write about life and God and other subjects why not me too? So of course I began writing and writing and writing.

For whatever reason one day I decided to look in the bible. I had been on this kick for years to find wisdom and truth, because it was very appealing to me. I suppose I was looking for answers, but was let down when I realized the answers I had been reading were just from other people like me. For whatever reason I hoped for something more.

So, I knew enough that the bible was suppose to be about God, but my dislike for religion and church made it very difficult to look into the bible. I did however, and almost 15 years later it ranks highest for me compared with any other book I have read.

The difference is for me is it claims to be the word of God. That is a pretty big claim, so I keep that in mind when I read it. Of course the Quran says the same thing, so I have tried to read it. Internally I have to be honest the words that come from the bible far surpass the words from the Quran in that they just feel different when I read them.

In the end that is all I can follow is my heart and what feels right.

One thing the bible teaches me is God can not be found by looking in the world we live in, but by looking in things that are not in this world.
To me that is fascinating, and worthy of contemplating.
By that idea, the bible is not part of this world, yet here it is before us. Could it be, that it is our link to God?

Anyway that's my cup of tea and it tastes just right for me!

Take care...
 

JMorris

Democratic Socialist
Honest and refreshing. thanks for sharing.

In my own life, I had a similar path. I realized one day after reading Spinoza and a lot of other books that fall into the philosophy section of the library, that all these ideas I am reading about came from other people just like me. As such, they were open to being wrong, but helpful none the less.
I decided if all these men and women could write about life and God and other subjects why not me too? So of course I began writing and writing and writing.

For whatever reason one day I decided to look in the bible. I had been on this kick for years to find wisdom and truth, because it was very appealing to me. I suppose I was looking for answers, but was let down when I realized the answers I had been reading were just from other people like me. For whatever reason I hoped for something more.

So, I knew enough that the bible was suppose to be about God, but my dislike for religion and church made it very difficult to look into the bible. I did however, and almost 15 years later it ranks highest for me compared with any other book I have read.

The difference is for me is it claims to be the word of God. That is a pretty big claim, so I keep that in mind when I read it. Of course the Quran says the same thing, so I have tried to read it. Internally I have to be honest the words that come from the bible far surpass the words from the Quran in that they just feel different when I read them.

In the end that is all I can follow is my heart and what feels right.

One thing the bible teaches me is God can not be found by looking in the world we live in, but by looking in things that are not in this world.
To me that is fascinating, and worthy of contemplating.
By that idea, the bible is not part of this world, yet here it is before us. Could it be, that it is our link to God?

Anyway that's my cup of tea and it tastes just right for me!

Take care...

well, so long as it tastes right to you, thats all that really matters. so long as your not trying to force it down other people's throats;)

i read alot about philosophy too. the bible is easier to understand (in my opinion) because its had 2000 years of western filter. the quran hasnt really ever passed through any western filters. in fact, from what i understand, you cant even get the true message unless you read it in arabic. but i might be wrong.

and im the opposite, in that im more intrested in what is IN the universe than whats not. specially since, i dont know whats NOT in it, since its not there to be known :p
 

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
so none of the people in the OT go to heaven (abraham, noah,etc).no 5 yearolds, what about the people between Jesus and about 1400 when the bible went to print, between those times few heard of the Word.all doomed?
So...you believe these people had a chance to "accept Jesus" over a thousand years before Jesus was born? How does that work?
 

HoldemDB9

Active Member
Duh! Opportunity is not equivalent results ie. Hearing the Gospel message does not guarantee that the message will be accepted.

I didn't say it did, so just what on earth are you talking about here?

I said that if the opportunity in country A is the same as the opportunity in country B, then there will be the same percentage of Christians in both country's. This is not saying that all who hear the message will accept, it is simply saying that if given an equal chance, the results will also be equal.

Muffled you are the only Christian I have ever talked to about this who is not extremely stupid, but now I'm starting to wonder. You take 50 million people and give them all the same chance to accept Christ as another 50 million people, there is NOT going to be 2% Christians in one group and 70% Christians in the other. What on earth do you not understand about this? It is beyond simple.

If the gospel message were accepted whenever a person heard it there wouldn't be any non-Christians in the world.

Again when on earth did I assume that people who heard would accept? I am simply saying that people in India have not had a fair/equal chance to accept Christianity as people in America. That is my statement. My statement is proved by the fact that there are a lot more Christians in America than in India. If they both had an equal chance, then there would be an equal amount of Christians in both countries, FACT. Pretty sure most 10 year olds could understand this.
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
So...you believe these people had a chance to "accept Jesus" over a thousand years before Jesus was born? How does that work?
It only works if you accept that Jesus is also from everlasting, and the belief Abraham had was in the fact God promised eternal life.

Though we read a lot in the bible about David's life, Abraham, and others, we aren't really privy to all the discussion between God and them. It is quite possible from reading some of the Psalmists that they somehow new of the coming Jesus. Or at the very least that salvation was something constant. Many believe that salvation has always been achieved the same way from the beginning to the end, which is to believe in God.

I personally believe Jesus was killed before the world began, but that comment will invite lots of attacks from some on the RF that can't fathom that.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
If, as you are implying here, everyone on the planet has heard the gospel, why are so many Christians still trying to shove...I mean, spread the word?

There is a passage in Mat. 24 that tells us not to get lazy just because we see the end approaching and there are those who have heard but have not accepted.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I didn't say it did, so just what on earth are you talking about here?

I said that if the opportunity in country A is the same as the opportunity in country B, then there will be the same percentage of Christians in both country's. This is not saying that all who hear the message will accept, it is simply saying that if given an equal chance, the results will also be equal.

Muffled you are the only Christian I have ever talked to about this who is not extremely stupid, but now I'm starting to wonder. You take 50 million people and give them all the same chance to accept Christ as another 50 million people, there is NOT going to be 2% Christians in one group and 70% Christians in the other. What on earth do you not understand about this? It is beyond simple.



Again when on earth did I assume that people who heard would accept? I am simply saying that people in India have not had a fair/equal chance to accept Christianity as people in America. That is my statement. My statement is proved by the fact that there are a lot more Christians in America than in India. If they both had an equal chance, then there would be an equal amount of Christians in both countries, FACT. Pretty sure most 10 year olds could understand this.

Let us say that someone has a car in distress by the highway. !00 people have an opportunity to stop and help but 99 pass by but only one stops. You are trying to tell me that the fact that 99 passed by shows that they didn't have an opportunity. Your logic just doesn't work.
 
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