For those who believe that only Christians go to heaven...

[McBell]

There is a passage in Mat. 24 that tells us not to get lazy just because we see the end approaching and there are those who have heard but have not accepted.

So you are supposed to keep annoying the he.... "spreading" the word until those who reject it accept it?

 

[HoldemDB9]

Let us say that someone has a car in distress by the highway. !00 people have an opportunity to stop and help but 99 pass by but only one stops. You are trying to tell me that the fact that 99 passed by shows that they didn't have an opportunity. Your logic just doesn't work.

Ok, I'm sorry but you must just be stupid like most other Christians who believe what you do. I am not saying that non-Christians have not had an opportunity. Read that a couple of time to get it into your head. Again, I am not saying that a child born in India has not had an opportunity, I am saying that a child born in India has not had an EQUAL opportunity as a child born in the USA. Understand?

In your example everyone had an equal chance to stop and help the car in distress, and only one chose to help. Now if you set up an experiment where you took 5 groups of 10 million people and you put them all in the situation from your example, what would the results be? Obviously, unless due to a fluctuation, there would be the same percentage of people in each group that stopped and helped the car in distress. You would NOT have 2% in group A, 10% in group B, 20% in group C, 50% in group D and 95% in group E if they all had an EQUAL chance to stop and help.

I think you understand this, but since it proves that your beleifs are contradictory you just will not accept, because you cannot be this stupid to say that this logic "does not work". Not only does it "work", it is very very simple. Please answer this - Imagine I said that Ill make a bet with you, it works like this. We follow 100 babies born in Saudi Arabia through life, for each child that becomes Christian I give you $50, for each that becomes Muslim you only have to give me $25. Since you are (LOL) saying that these children born in Saudi have just as good a chance to turn out Christian as they do to turn out Muslim, this bet should be very profitable for you (LOL). So would you take the bet? Yes or no? Please no dodging I will answer ANYTHING that you put to me. Just yes or no, would you take this bet?

 

[Muffled]

Ok, I'm sorry but you must just be stupid like most other Christians who believe what you do. I am not saying that non-Christians have not had an opportunity. Read that a couple of time to get it into your head. Again, I am not saying that a child born in India has not had an opportunity, I am saying that a child born in India has not had an EQUAL opportunity as a child born in the USA. Understand?

In your example everyone had an equal chance to stop and help the car in distress, and only one chose to help. Now if you set up an experiment where you took 5 groups of 10 million people and you put them all in the situation from your example, what would the results be? Obviously, unless due to a fluctuation, there would be the same percentage of people in each group that stopped and helped the car in distress. You would NOT have 2% in group A, 10% in group B, 20% in group C, 50% in group D and 95% in group E if they all had an EQUAL chance to stop and help.

I think you understand this, but since it proves that your beleifs are contradictory you just will not accept, because you cannot be this stupid to say that this logic "does not work". Not only does it "work", it is very very simple. Please answer this - Imagine I said that Ill make a bet with you, it works like this. We follow 100 babies born in Saudi Arabia through life, for each child that becomes Christian I give you $50, for each that becomes Muslim you only have to give me $25. Since you are (LOL) saying that these children born in Saudi have just as good a chance to turn out Christian as they do to turn out Muslim, this bet should be very profitable for you (LOL). So would you take the bet? Yes or no? Please no dodging I will answer ANYTHING that you put to me. Just yes or no, would you take this bet?

No but not because the opportunity is unequal but because the predisposition is unequal. For example if you tried to offer ten prostitutes who make 100 dollars a night a job at 7 dollars an hour, how many would be predisposed to accept the offer? It isn't due to the fact that the opportunity is unequal.

However even though the opportunity is equal I will grant you that people in the USA have that opportunity presented more often. However I do not perceive the number of opportunities as a guarantor of success.

There are two reasons why people in the USA are more likely to avail themselves of their opportunity. 1. Christianity is taught more often and is sometimes a part of our culture (less these days than in the past). 2. People who are already Christians from a previous life tend to stay in Christian lands and non-christians tend to stay in non-christian lands.

This is moderating a bit because foreign people are coming to the USA and despite the predispositions are finding Jesus as Savior.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Ok we may finally be getting somewhere.

No but not because the opportunity is unequal but because the predisposition is unequal. For example if you tried to offer ten prostitutes who make 100 dollars a night a job at 7 dollars an hour, how many would be predisposed to accept the offer? It isn't due to the fact that the opportunity is unequal.

So some have been born predisposed to not accept Christ, but these people have an equal opportunity to those who have been born predisposed to accept Christ. Is that what you are saying?

However even though the opportunity is equal I will grant you that people in the USA have that opportunity presented more often. However I do not perceive the number of opportunities as a guarantor of success.

Your right, its not that people in India do not have the opportunity presented to them, it's that they have it presented to them less that those do who live in America. Then you say that the number of opportunity's does not increase the chance of success. That is hilarious, common sense would say that it definitely will increase the chance of success. But if you dont want common sense I can give you undeniable proof that more opportunity's does equal a higher chance of success.

The proof is that over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and again, over hundreds of millions of trials, those with more opportunity's have become Christian A LOT more often than those who had less opportunity's. This without a doubt proves that you are wrong and that having more opportunity's does equal a higher chance of success. Not that I dont believe you already know this, of course you do, you are just going to come up with something though because you cannot admit that your beliefs are 100% directly contradictory.

There are two reasons why people in the USA are more likely to avail themselves of their opportunity. 1. Christianity is taught more often and is sometimes a part of our culture (less these days than in the past). 2. People who are already Christians from a previous life tend to stay in Christian lands and non-Christians tend to stay in non-Christian lands.

Well there you go, this was my point all along. You have just admitted that somebody born in the USA in more likely to avail themselves of their opportunity. So God has put some people in a country which makes you more likely to choose Christianity and put others in country's where they are less likely to choose Christianity, you have admitted this. Can you see why this is unfair and therefore unjust? Of course you can, whether you will admit it is another thing. Interesting 2nd reason, please explain, it could show that your beliefs are not contradictory. So you believe in past lives and people who were Christian in their past life are put into a Christian nation in this life?

This is moderating a bit because foreign people are coming to the USA and despite the predispositions are finding Jesus as Savior.

Please clarify on these "predispositions", why are they there? Without a reason (no Christian has ever gave me one) God is simply creating people with different chances of choosing Christianity, which by definition is unfair - which by definition is unjust.

And about you not accepting the bet. By doing this you are saying that a child born in Saudi Arabia has a smaller chance of becoming Christian in their life to a child born in the USA. You are at the same time saying that the child in Saudi Arabia has the same opportunity to become Christian. That makes zero sense whatsoever.

 

[Muffled]

Ok we may finally be getting somewhere.
So some have been born predisposed to not accept Christ, but these people have an equal opportunity to those who have been born predisposed to accept Christ. Is that what you are saying?
Your right, its not that people in India do not have the opportunity presented to them, it's that they have it presented to them less that those do who live in America. Then you say that the number of opportunity's does not increase the chance of success. That is hilarious, common sense would say that it definitely will increase the chance of success. But if you dont want common sense I can give you undeniable proof that more opportunity's does equal a higher chance of success.

The proof is that over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and again, over hundreds of millions of trials, those with more opportunity's have become Christian A LOT more often than those who had less opportunity's. This without a doubt proves that you are wrong and that having more opportunity's does equal a higher chance of success. Not that I dont believe you already know this, of course you do, you are just going to come up with something though because you cannot admit that your beliefs are 100% directly contradictory.

Well there you go, this was my point all along. You have just admitted that somebody born in the USA in more likely to avail themselves of their opportunity. So God has put some people in a country which makes you more likely to choose Christianity and put others in country's where they are less likely to choose Christianity, you have admitted this. Can you see why this is unfair and therefore unjust? Of course you can, whether you will admit it is another thing. Interesting 2nd reason, please explain, it could show that your beliefs are not contradictory. So you believe in past lives and people who were Christian in their past life are put into a Christian nation in this life?

Please clarify on these "predispositions", why are they there? Without a reason (no Christian has ever gave me one) God is simply creating people with different chances of choosing Christianity, which by definition is unfair - which by definition is unjust.

And about you not accepting the bet. By doing this you are saying that a child born in Saudi Arabia has a smaller chance of becoming Christian in their life to a child born in the USA. You are at the same time saying that the child in Saudi Arabia has the same opportunity to become Christian. That makes zero sense whatsoever.

Yes!

What you call common sense does have a rationale. Jesus told a parable about persistence in prayer. Sometimes if you nag long enough you can get what you want but not because the person is choosing freely and taking advantage of an opportunity. If you hold one pig roast in Saudi Arabia and invite members of a mosque to come they will be indisposed to do so and if you hold ten pig roasts in New York City inviting members of an Orthodox Jewish synagogue, they will be indisposed to come each and every time. And it is my opinion that they will never be disposed to come.

Saying that you are right a million times does not offer any proof that you are right. I am no more disposed to believe you than if you had said it only once.

Yes, if it were intentional on God's part to remove a person from an opportunity.
However God has stated that it is His purpose for everyone to be saved, so it is not going to make an iota of difference to those who are pre-disposed not to accept the Gospel to be born in the USA. In that case it is reasonable to keep people in relationships that they prefer as long as they deserve it.

If a person is returning to his family as a child, and the family is still living in the USA, he is born again in the USA and having been a Christian before is disposed to become one again. In the USA many peole were Christians in previous lives and therfore return with a predisposition to be Christian again.

Somewhere along the line of time some people have bought the devil's lie that sin is good. These people are not disposed to become Christians although they may have been exposed to it many times. Then there are those who have been exposed to the truth that sin is bad but think they can overcome sin by their own power. They are not predisposed to become Christians because Christianity is not ego fulfilling and does not support pride. To the best of my knowledge God is not creating new souls.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Saying that you are right a million times does not offer any proof that you are right. I am no more disposed to believe you than if you had said it only once.

I just cannot talk to people like this, it sends me nuts. I clearly shown how being given more opportunities does equal a higher chance of success. My undeniable proof was that people who are given more opportunities succeed more often than those who don't, this is happening over and over again all over the world.

This is your argument: The amount of opportunities that one gets to become Christian does not have an affect on whether or not they become Christian.

I disagree and this is my proof: People who have had a lot of opportunities usually become Christian and people who don't have many usually do not become Christian. This clearly shows (more clear and straight forward than any proof I have ever given) that the amount of opportunities one gets to become Christian definitely does have an affect on whether or not they become Christian.

There, I've gave you my proof, I don't know how to say it any more clearly. I'm sure you understood it the first time around, but since you've got nothing to say you decided to avoid it like always and instead comment on how often I said I was right to make it look like a response. BTW I was not saying I was right a million times, I was proving that I was right. I'm asking you to please respond to this.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Its obvious that not all get an equal chance to become a Christian. For example, a child born in India (where 80% of the population is Hindu) does not have the same chance of becoming Christian as a child born in the USA (where I think 70%+ are Christian?).

I don't know why, but for some reason many Christians seem to think that you will be held accountable for not following, once you have simply "heard" of the Bible. Hearing of the Bible does not make everything all equal.

Obviously this is not at all fair. So does God either let non-Christians into heaven or does he give some a MUCH better chance than others? I don't see any other way around it .

The Bible clearly states only 144, 000 are saved, plus the jews
All we have to do is rebuild the temple
Give birth to the anti Christ
Let him kill all the Jews

And that 144,000 will be sitting pretty.

The rest of humanity can kiss their bottys goodbye...

Questions?

 

[lockyfan]

The Bible clearly states only 144, 000 are saved, plus the jews
All we have to do is rebuild the temple
Give birth to the anti Christ
Let him kill all the Jews

And that 144,000 will be sitting pretty.

The rest of humanity can kiss their bottys goodbye...

Questions?

No actually thats untrue

144000 go to Heaven to rule as Kings and Priests, a "great crowd" those who find and accept the truth of God are saved at Armageddon. Every human being is given at least one chance to find out this truth and the earth is actually full of people preaching the Good News of the Kingdom, the door to door work.

The dead are then ressurrected after Armageddon and igven the chance to learn about God if they didnt know him and those that did know him are ressurected to help teach and also learn more aobut him.

Every human gets a chance, but at least htey get a chance even if it is done in secret or openly every human is given the chance at salvation. Whether you choose ot take it or not, well that is your choice.

 

[Former Minister]

ny God that would allow a Devil to compete with him is not a very smart God.

 

[lockyfan]

compete no.

allow him to rule to prove that the way things were started by Him were how they were meant to be yes.

God isnt allowing satan to compete with him, he is allowing a small amount of time for him to rule and has given us the Holy Scriptures to thn be able to understand and tryo t stay away from the works of Satan in this system, whioch is very close to its end

 

[McBell]

compete no.

allow him to rule to prove that the way things were started by Him were how they were meant to be yes.

God isnt allowing satan to compete with him, he is allowing a small amount of time for him to rule and has given us the Holy Scriptures to thn be able to understand and tryo t stay away from the works of Satan in this system, whioch is very close to its end

and this is better... ...how?

 

[Muffled]

So you are supposed to keep annoying the he.... "spreading" the word until those who reject it accept it?

My wife is in terrible pain from a pinched nerve. I could heal that and remove the pain but she won't let me becuase she doesn't believe in it. So I am supposed to just put on a happy face and endure my wife's suffering without trying to change her mind?

The wages of sin is death. You want me to just let such a person die and not try to rescue him? In essence you want me to be an unloving person who doesn't give a d*** about anyone else.

 

[McBell]

My wife is in terrible pain from a pinched nerve. I could heal that and remove the pain but she won't let me becuase she doesn't believe in it. So I am supposed to just put on a happy face and endure my wife's suffering without trying to change her mind?

The wages of sin is death. You want me to just let such a person die and not try to rescue him? In essence you want me to be an unloving person who doesn't give a d*** about anyone else.

So you feel justified ignoring your wifes wishes because of your own selfishness?

Interesting that you refuse to see any other side than the one you cling to.
Not surprising by any stretch of the imagination, but interesting none the less.

 

[Muffled]

So you feel justified ignoring your wifes wishes because of your own selfishness?

Interesting that you refuse to see any other side than the one you cling to.
Not surprising by any stretch of the imagination, but interesting none the less.

On the contrary, my wife does not wish to be in pain. I don't see it as being selfish to want the best for people even though they seem to want the worst. After all I could be selfish and just glory in my own salvation but thena I wouldn't really be saved because I would lack love for others.

Of course I see the other side but it has nothing good to offer.

 

[Muffled]

No actually thats untrue

144000 go to Heaven to rule as Kings and Priests, a "great crowd" those who find and accept the truth of God are saved at Armageddon. Every human being is given at least one chance to find out this truth and the earth is actually full of people preaching the Good News of the Kingdom, the door to door work.

The dead are then ressurrected after Armageddon and igven the chance to learn about God if they didnt know him and those that did know him are ressurected to help teach and also learn more aobut him.

Every human gets a chance, but at least htey get a chance even if it is done in secret or openly every human is given the chance at salvation. Whether you choose ot take it or not, well that is your choice.

You should try reading a real Bible instead of the New World Translation. All the tribes listed in the 144,000 are Jewish tribes.

At Armageddon millions die and a meagre few Jews are saved (144,000). The Bible says the multitude in Heaven came from every nation after the 144,000 which means after Armageddon.

The first resurrection is only of the most holy saints. The second resurrection takes place after the Millenium but nothing is mentioned about unbelievers. Just because it uses the general term "the dead" does not mean that everyone is resurrected. If that were the case the world would return to its former evil state which I view as highly unlikely.

 

[lockyfan]

You should try reading a real Bible instead of the New World Translation. All the tribes listed in the 144,000 are Jewish tribes.

Decendants from the Jewish Tribes
Which anyone can be a decendant of those tribes you would even know if you were because no one can trace their tree back that far. No one can all I know is we all come from the same human pair Adam and Eve

At Armageddon millions die and a meagre few Jews are saved (144,000). The Bible says the multitude in Heaven came from every nation after the 144,000 which means after Armageddon.

Actually the bible also talks of a "great crowd"that survive armageddon. They flock to the true God because they know and see that what he is saying is the truth, while others also flee from false religion

also please quote the scriptures in which you have read the The Bible says the multitude in Heaven came from every nation after the 144,000 which means after Armageddon. Because I really think you misread it

The first resurrection is only of the most holy saints. The second resurrection takes place after the Millenium but nothing is mentioned about unbelievers. Just because it uses the general term "the dead" does not mean that everyone is resurrected. If that were the case the world would return to its former evil state which I view as highly unlikely.

No Actually during the millenial rule is when the ressurection occurs. All people bar those who physically rejected Jehovah God as their sovereign ruler (Judas Iscariot, Adam, Eve those in the flood of Noahs day and those during armageddon) are brought back. They have a chance to know and learn about God and then a final test from satan to weed out the ones who no matter what happens their hearts are not willing to accept God as King are removed from the earth

after this point the humans left are deemed perfect and get life everlasting on a paradise

Revelation 20-22 speaks of this

 

[Muffled]

Decendants from the Jewish Tribes
Which anyone can be a decendant of those tribes you would even know if you were because no one can trace their tree back that far. No one can all I know is we all come from the same human pair Adam and Eve



Actually the bible also talks of a "great crowd"that survive armageddon. They flock to the true God because they know and see that what he is saying is the truth, while others also flee from false religion

also please quote the scriptures in which you have read the The Bible says the multitude in Heaven came from every nation after the 144,000 which means after Armageddon. Because I really think you misread it



No Actually during the millenial rule is when the ressurection occurs. All people bar those who physically rejected Jehovah God as their sovereign ruler (Judas Iscariot, Adam, Eve those in the flood of Noahs day and those during armageddon) are brought back. They have a chance to know and learn about God and then a final test from satan to weed out the ones who no matter what happens their hearts are not willing to accept God as King are removed from the earth

after this point the humans left are deemed perfect and get life everlasting on a paradise

Revelation 20-22 speaks of this

I suppose you cold point that out to me: Rev 7:9 After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 20 is preceded by rapture and judgement as shown in Rev 14 - Rev 14:14 And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 Another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God.

 

[lockyfan]

I suppose you cold point that out to me: Rev 7:9 After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands;

This is actually a separate group that come from a similar origin (from mankind) but a different destiny. They have hope for an earthly life. They are un numbered, where as the "spiritual israel" the ones who are destined for heaven have a specific number. 144 000. The number is spcific as in that is all there is of them, but symbolic in the sense of it being 12 (heavenly completion) x 12 000

The great crowd are arrayed in white, they have rrighteous standing before God through their faith in Jesus' sacrifice. You see these are the people who survive. In the scriptures there are two ways of attaining repentance, that of dying and having our sins washed clean or survivng through the end of this system into the new one to be established during chrits rule

Rev 20 is preceded by rapture and judgement as shown in Rev 14 - Rev 14:14 And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 Another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God.

This is now talking about the reaping of the earth, or removal of the wicked from the earth. This is actually discribing what is to happen at Armageddon, the sheer scale of who will not survive that day, due to their lack of knowledge or total and utter ignorance of what people have tried to tell them

however, there is still time for anyone who does not want to be part of this winepress that is destroyed at Armageddon to join God and be protected and saved. Just like the Israelites were during the plagues of Egypt, Lot and his daughters and Noah and his family

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Man whoever wrote that revelation thing was doing some serious s*!

 

[MSizer]

Man whoever wrote that revelation thing was doing some serious s*!

He was a dood named Paul (not Saul of Tarsus) who had been banished to a criminal island by the romans. He hated the romans with a passion. Does that shed light on anything? Funny how prophets are defined as such by having direct communication to god or by the ability to fortell major events, yet this Paul guy, who apparently knows how the entire world will come apart, is almost unknown himself. Of course when you consider how many monks sat in hot sweaty rooms for hours writing this stuff down over and over again, I'd be willing to be a word or two have changed since the original author's edition.