For Torath Mosheh Jews Only: Who is Hashem?

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, at this point I do understand that the Hebrew texts that I cited are written 'figuratively' in a way that Jews/humans can better understand and relate to, however, if you don't mind me asking, what is the purpose of all the scary and violent language in those verses?
Zephaniah 1:14-18

Isaiah 13:9-11

Zephaniah 3:8

Amos 5:18-20

Joel 1:15

Therefore, I don't get it, @Ehav4Ever.

So, what is the problem with them internally right now? Also, you're saying that corrupt politicians such as Trump (if he's still around then), Mitch McConnell (if he's still even alive), Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Josh Hawley, Joe Manchin, Kyrsten Sinema, and Kevin McCarthy, just to name a few, all are going to see Jews behaving nicely and then become good guys and gals all the sudden. And that's just to name some of the corrupt politicians who are in the United States.

Also, @Ehav4Ever, you use the word "reality" a lot, but the scenario that you're describing doesn't even some like reality but sounds more like a... if you don't mind me saying this... a pipe dream. Plus, it's totally out of harmony with the above Hebrew texts that I quoted.

The problem with all of what you have listed falls into the categories.
1. You would need to read the entire text from start to finish.
2. You would need to understand the history of the environment of the time and the author's position and reason for nevuah.
3. You would have to sit down with someone who knows the original Hebrew.

W/o these three things being in place it is very difficult to try and explain where the translation you have isn't giving the real picture of what was written or even what the original even means. I will have to think of how to convey this. Honestly, this is one of those situaitons where I would say a zoom or some other similar format would be the easiest way to address this. Another would be if you were to contact an Orthodox rabbi in your area who knows Hebrew. This would be easier than trying to write out an explaination. I will see what I can come up with.

In terms of what politicians would see, it would be the following.
1. An entire Israeli Jewish population who turning ot the Torah (written and oral).
2. A Mosaic Court in the land of Israel that establishing the proper Torah based judicial system.
3. The rise of an Israeli leader who a) is proven to be of Davidic descent, b) holds by the Torah and halakha established from Mount Sinai, b) teaches all Israelis from the Torah and halakha established from Mount Sinai, c) is "SUCCESSFULLY" able to lead the nation of Israel back to a Torah based nation, d) is able to "SUCCESSFULLY" repatriat all Torah based Jews outside of Israel in the land of Israel, e) is obviously being protected and strengthened by the Source of all reality, f) the establishment of Torah based institutions in the land of Israel, and g) that nothing that is done externally is able to bring down this previously mentioned series of events.
4. Thus, when a "FUNCTIONAL" Torah based society is able to exist here with obvious signs that the Source of reality of is protecting it and supporting it W/O external non-Israeli assistance (financially, politically, or militarialy) then that is the stepping stone of success.

In terms of what is reality and a pipe dream. Prior to the state of Israel for about 2,000 years the idea of a Jewish return to the land of Israel and the establishment of a Jewish nation (of any type) was 100% a pipe dream. Until the first airplane actually flew air transportation was a pipe dream, until men landed on the moon that was a pipe dream. Until a small drone helicopter was able to fly on Mars that was a pipe dream, etc. Every advancement in human history is a pipe dream until someone actually accomplishes it.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, if that's the case and Hashem created human beings with that much diversity even when it comes to the basic concept of love, then no wonder the world has so many conflicts. wars. and disagreements if we all can't even agree upon and share the same concept of love.

Hashem didn't create our different concepts. Humans in the past did, and we do now. Kind of like when two people fight over something they can easily share. Yet, there are cultures around the world that work well together what ever definitions they have because they have a vested interest to do so.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But just because there are a lot of good things happening in the world and a lot of people who are doing well, that doesn't negate the evil that exists in the world, which seems to be what you are saying:

Also see... 8 OF THE WORST HUMANITARIAN CRISES TO KNOW IN 2023

Nothing negates nothing. Yet, I find westerners sometimes have a more doom and gloom perspective about a lot of things even when they are living a lot better than people who have less are are able to be happy with less. Besides, most of what you are describing was created by people and many of the masses accept that as their reality.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But just because there are a lot of good things happening in the world and a lot of people who are doing well, that doesn't negate the evil that exists in the world, which seems to be what you are saying:

Also see... 8 OF THE WORST HUMANITARIAN CRISES TO KNOW IN 2023

Also, be aware that even some of the organizations that claim to exist for the sake of humanity have some dark secrets themselves.

When UN peacekeepers commit atrocities, someone has to act

Sexual exploitation, child abuse, corruption and torture. These are just some of the many crimes committed by United Nations peacekeepers. Such abuses have the potential to undermine and even delegitimise…

theconversation.com

Criticism of the United Nations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Also, @Ehav4Ever, you use the word "reality" a lot, but the scenario that you're describing doesn't even some like reality but sounds more like a... if you don't mind me saying this... a pipe dream. Plus, it's totally out of harmony with the above Hebrew texts that I quoted.

Be aware that you are only quote a part of an English translation of said texts. Also, you need the historical context of what the writers were even addressing.

 

[David Davidovich]

The problem with all of what you have listed falls into the categories.
1. You would need to read the entire text from start to finish.
2. You would need to understand the history of the environment of the time and the author's position and reason for nevuah.
3. You would have to sit down with someone who knows the original Hebrew.

W/o these three things being in place it is very difficult to try and explain where the translation you have isn't giving the real picture of what was written or even what the original even means. I will have to think of how to convey this. Honestly, this is one of those situaitons where I would say a zoom or some other similar format would be the easiest way to address this. Another would be if you were to contact an Orthodox rabbi in your area who knows Hebrew. This would be easier than trying to write out an explaination. I will see what I can come up with.

Well, I can't imagine that it would be any harder than what you explained what the Hebrew text actually says in Genesis 1:1. but yet, I was able to understand your 'condense' version of that. However, unlike Genesis 1:1, there were too many verses that I cited in post #136 (and some that I quoted) that are all basically conveying the same or similar sentiment, therefore, all these verses must have the same basic meaning.

In terms of what politicians would see, it would be the following.
1. An entire Israeli Jewish population who turning ot the Torah (written and oral).
2. A Mosaic Court in the land of Israel that establishing the proper Torah based judicial system.
3. The rise of an Israeli leader who a) is proven to be of Davidic descent, b) holds by the Torah and halakha established from Mount Sinai, b) teaches all Israelis from the Torah and halakha established from Mount Sinai, c) is "SUCCESSFULLY" able to lead the nation of Israel back to a Torah based nation, d) is able to "SUCCESSFULLY" repatriat all Torah based Jews outside of Israel in the land of Israel, e) is obviously being protected and strengthened by the Source of all reality, f) the establishment of Torah based institutions in the land of Israel, and g) that nothing that is done externally is able to bring down this previously mentioned series of events.
4. Thus, when a "FUNCTIONAL" Torah based society is able to exist here with obvious signs that the Source of reality of is protecting it and supporting it W/O external non-Israeli assistance (financially, politically, or militarialy) then that is the stepping stone of success.

So, is that implying that something is going to be done externally to attempt to bring down this series of events? And if yes, are you guessing or are you going by some Hebrew text verse that says that after that, all the external nations will then fall in line and the cruel, bad leaders of those nations will then become good guys?

In terms of what is reality and a pipe dream. Prior to the state of Israel for about 2,000 years the idea of a Jewish return to the land of Israel and the establishment of a Jewish nation (of any type) was 100% a pipe dream. Until the first airplane actually flew air transportation was a pipe dream, until men landed on the moon that was a pipe dream. Until a small drone helicopter was able to fly on Mars that was a pipe dream, etc. Every advancement in human history is a pipe dream until someone actually accomplishes it.

So, once again, is this based upon TMJ's interpretation or viewpoint of Hebrew text verses?

 

[David Davidovich]

Nothing negates nothing. Yet, I find westerners sometimes have a more doom and gloom perspective about a lot of things even when they are living a lot better than people who have less are are able to be happy with less. Besides, most of what you are describing was created by people and many of the masses accept that as their reality.

I'm sorry, but for a lot of us westerners, it's called compassion.

 

[David Davidovich]

Also, be aware that even some of the organizations that claim to exist for the sake of humanity have some dark secrets themselves.

When UN peacekeepers commit atrocities, someone has to act

Sexual exploitation, child abuse, corruption and torture. These are just some of the many crimes committed by United Nations peacekeepers. Such abuses have the potential to undermine and even delegitimise…

theconversation.com

Criticism of the United Nations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But what does that have to do with anything? Because if anything, what you said only adds to the corruption and the deception.

 

[David Davidovich]

Be aware that you are only quote a part of an English translation of said texts. Also, you need the historical context of what the writers were even addressing.

Well, give it your best shot. Or create a new video about it.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

No, I think the Torah is describing a God with human emotions for the sake of the readers' understanding, and a God that cares deeply about human affairs and is intimately involved in human existence and experienc

Well, give it your best shot. Or create a new video about it.

A video may be best, but those take a while and I am currently editing my secong novel. So, it make be a while.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But what does that have to do with anything? Because if anything, what you said only adds to the corruption and the deception.

It means that while the UN discussing human suffering and works to address some of it, they also are cause of some of it. Because people can choose to do one or the other.

Also, because most of human suffering is because of human corruption and deception.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'm sorry, but for a lot of us westerners, it's called compassion.

A doom and gloom attitude is not compassion. Besides, if it were compassion the solution is to band together with like minded people and make life more joyful on a day to day basis. There are people who do this every day, either by volunteering their time and resouces to help people, and they don't have the doom and gloom attitude that the world is so bad. Like I stated earlier a lot of human suffering is due to human corruption and deception. OF COURSE, not by all people/humans but by people with power and resources.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'm sorry, but for a lot of us westerners, it's called compassion.

This is real compassion that is humanly possible and also not a doom gloom perspective.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, is that implying that something is going to be done externally to attempt to bring down this series of events? And if yes, are you guessing or are you going by some Hebrew text verse that says that after that, all the external nations will then fall in line and the cruel, bad leaders of those nations will then become good guys?

So, once again, is this based upon TMJ's interpretation or viewpoint of Hebrew text verses?

It implies that the ability for those events to happen are already in place. All it takes to start them is for Jews living in Israel to take the first step. Once that happens then reality is built for it to happen. Yes, this viewpoint exists in Torath Mosheh writings. Are there external elements, of course. Hashem and the reality that Hashem is an external element. If Jews in Israel don't do it naturally by a certain time, there are views that state that reality will if you will "react" to show that generation of Israelis that it only makes sense to nationally return to the Torah. In this view, if it gets to that point - that generation will already be willing to make the complete turn to the Torah when seeing that particular reality. Yet, it doesn't have to go that far. Any generation can make the choice and the results will be the same, but the circumstances will be different.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, give it your best shot. Or create a new video about it.

In short, the Nevi'im you chose were:
1. Addressing an Israeli nation that was doing Avodah Zara and was running the risk of exile.
2. Addressing an Israel that had not turned away from Avodah Zara was in the midst of an invasion.
3. Addressing an Israel that needed to know what the results of their actions would be, but to know that even if they did not return to the Torah and the exile happened they must keep the Torah and a future generation would turn things around.

Thus, one read the texts from start to finish. Further, the Hebrew is more clear and also Hebrew text often include the additional Jewish historical context need to know what the statements mean.

 

[David Davidovich]

dybmh said:
"Do you think that Torah is describing a god which is without emotion and doesn't care about human affairs?"

No, I think the Torah is describing a God with human emotions for the sake of the readers' understanding, and a God that cares deeply about human affairs and is intimately involved in human existence and experience.

So, rosends, are you saying that in reality, the Source of Reality mentioned in the Torah DOESN'T care deeply about human affairs and is NOT intimately involved in human existence and experience? But wants it to appear to humans that he is and that he does? And that he or it is only involved in human existence and experience merely because... he chooses to be?

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said:
But what does that have to do with anything? Because if anything, what you said only adds to the corruption and the deception.

It means that while the UN discussing human suffering and works to address some of it, they also are cause of some of it. Because people can choose to do one or the other.

Also, because most of human suffering is because of human corruption and deception.

Um, ditto? Because you are only supporting the point that I was making.

 

[David Davidovich]

A doom and gloom attitude is not compassion. Besides, if it were compassion the solution is to band together with like minded people and make life more joyful on a day to day basis. There are people who do this every day, either by volunteering their time and resouces to help people, and they don't have the doom and gloom attitude that the world is so bad. Like I stated earlier a lot of human suffering is due to human corruption and deception. OF COURSE, not by all people/humans but by people with power and resources.

But, @Ehav4Ever, you are veering away from what we were discussing in post #198. Because if there is such an abundance of "good things happening in the world," then why is there even a Jewish mashiach that is coming into the world?

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said:
So, is that implying that something is going to be done externally to attempt to bring down this series of events? And if yes, are you guessing or are you going by some Hebrew text verse that says that after that, all the external nations will then fall in line and the cruel, bad leaders of those nations will then become good guys?

So, once again, is this based upon TMJ's interpretation or viewpoint of Hebrew text verses?

It implies that the ability for those events to happen are already in place. All it takes to start them is for Jews living in Israel to take the first step. Once that happens then reality is built for it to happen. Yes, this viewpoint exists in Torath Mosheh writings. Are there external elements, of course. Hashem and the reality that Hashem is an external element. If Jews in Israel don't do it naturally by a certain time, there are views that state that reality will if you will "react" to show that generation of Israelis that it only makes sense to nationally return to the Torah. In this view, if it gets to that point - that generation will already be willing to make the complete turn to the Torah when seeing that particular reality. Yet, it doesn't have to go that far. Any generation can make the choice and the results will be the same, but the circumstances will be different.

Sorry, but that doesn't answer my part of the question about the external nations.

 

[David Davidovich]

In short, the Nevi'im you chose were:
1. Addressing an Israeli nation that was doing Avodah Zara and was running the risk of exile.
2. Addressing an Israel that had not turned away from Avodah Zara was in the midst of an invasion.
3. Addressing an Israel that needed to know what the results of their actions would be, but to know that even if they did not return to the Torah and the exile happened they must keep the Torah and a future generation would turn things around.

Thus, one read the texts from start to finish. Further, the Hebrew is more clear and also Hebrew text often include the additional Jewish historical context need to know what the statements mean.

Well, that wasn't so hard. However, why is it that those verses are only about the Israeli nation that had not turned away from Avodah Zara, but Isaiah 10:32-12:6 is about the coming of the Jewish mashiach?

32 This day they will halt at Nob;
they will shake their fist
at the mount of Daughter Zion,
at the hill of Jerusalem.
33 See, the Lord, the Lord Almighty,
will lop off the boughs with great power.
The lofty trees will be felled,
the tall ones will be brought low.
34 He will cut down the forest thickets with an ax;
Lebanon will fall before the Mighty One.

The Branch From Jesse​

11 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him—
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of might,
the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the Lord—
3 and he will delight in the fear of the Lord.
He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,
or decide by what he hears with his ears;
4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.
5 Righteousness will be his belt
and faithfulness the sash around his waist.
6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling[a] together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.
10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious. 11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush,[b] from Elam, from Babylonia,[c] from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.

12 He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth.
13 Ephraim’s jealousy will vanish,
and Judah’s enemies[d] will be destroyed;
Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah,
nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim.
14 They will swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west;
together they will plunder the people to the east.
They will subdue Edom and Moab,
and the Ammonites will be subject to them.
15 The Lord will dry up
the gulf of the Egyptian sea;
with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand
over the Euphrates River.
He will break it up into seven streams
so that anyone can cross over in sandals.
16 There will be a highway for the remnant of his people
that is left from Assyria,
as there was for Israel
when they came up from Egypt.

Songs of Praise​

12 In that day you will say:

“I will praise you, Lord.
Although you were angry with me,
your anger has turned away
and you have comforted me.
2 Surely God is my salvation;
I will trust and not be afraid.
The Lord, the Lord himself, is my strength and my defense[e];
he has become my salvation.”
3 With joy you will draw water
from the wells of salvation.
4 In that day you will say:

“Give praise to the Lord, proclaim his name;
make known among the nations what he has done,
and proclaim that his name is exalted.
5 Sing to the Lord, for he has done glorious things;
let this be known to all the world.
6 Shout aloud and sing for joy, people of Zion,
for great is the Holy One of Israel among you.”

See my emphasis and font changes above. Also, see Isaiah on Moshiach.