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For Torath Mosheh Jews Only: Who is Hashem?

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Well, that wasn't so hard. However, why is it that those verses are only about the Israeli nation that had not turned away from Avodah Zara, but Isaiah 10:32-12:6 is about the coming of the Jewish mashiach?

See my emphasis and font changes above. Also, see Isaiah on Moshiach.

Because if you read them all the way to the end they explain what will eventually happen even if they didn't return to the Torah. Again, you have to remember that chapter numbers and verse numbers didn't exist when texts were written. If you look at the Yeshayahu (Isaiah) scroll there are no divisions of chapters and verses. This was a Christian invention. Thus, you don't have the ability to seperate ideas in the originals. I.e. the whole text was directed at the Israeli/Jews of that generation and it was seen that they had important information for future generation of Jews.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but that doesn't answer my part of the question about the external nations.

Okay, but good guys and bad guys isn't found in the texts. If the world collectively saw that a particular something was reality and nothing can stop it, change it, and it comes from what put everything in the universe in place it would logically mean that most rational people would want to fullfil what makes logical sense rather than follow paths that lead to nowhere.

How the other nations make that work, it will be up to them. Yet, most likely it will be them realizing that the 7 mitzvoth are the starting point and going from there. If that means that their governments become most honest on thier own, only the future will tell. If that means that regular people force their governments to become more honest, again only time will tell.
 
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Um, ditto? Because you are only supporting the point that I was making. :anguished:

Yes, but I had already made that point already. I posted a video several months ago with Jordan Peterson making the exact same statement. Thus, the doom and gloom is only when people allow corruption to be the way of things. There are people around the world who don't allow that to be the case.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
So, rosends, are you saying that in reality, the Source of Reality mentioned in the Torah DOESN'T care deeply about human affairs and is NOT intimately involved in human existence and experience? But wants it to appear to humans that he is and that he does? And that he or it is only involved in human existence and experience merely because... he chooses to be?

Not to speak for rosends but what is being said is that all the words anyone chooses to use are simply examples for our own sake. The actions of Hashem show what his intentions, if you want to call them that, are towards Israel and the entire world. I.e.

1. By creating the universe and humanity within it, Hashem is involved in existance. If Hashem wasn't reality would not exist and wouldn't remain.
2. By giving the Torah to Israel after bringing Israel out of a Egypt we humans can define that as "Hashem cares for human affairs." Again, care is such a limiting word.
3. Hashem, understanding His creations, knew that the Torah needed to be written in the language of Jewish humanity. Otherwise no Jew would understand any of the information Hashem wanted to transmit in the Torah and the Mitzvoth.
4. Hashem created a system that humanity could benefit and receive the good of reality from by way of the Torah for the Israeli/Jewish people and the 7 Mitzvoth for non-Jews.
5. Hashem created a situation where humanity is free to accept the above or reject and thus receive what we really want out of that choice.
5. The reality is that Hashem is beyond humanity by magnitudes that we can't even calculate. YET, we know the Torah provides enough of the language necessary for Jews to be able to do the will of Hashem within reality.
6. Similar to how an ant has only a certain amout of tools to define, describe, and deal with the reality of humans - we as humans only have a certain amount of tools to define, describe, and deal with the reality of the Source of all reality. We humans are only certain magnitudes beyond ants - YET Hashem is magnitudes so far above/beyond humanity that we can't even calcuate it - no different than how we can't currently quantify fully dark matter.

The same way that a person on earth can't quantify fully a chemical process that is taking place on Jupiter, because of our limited scope of that planet. We know it is there, we know it exists, but the planet we are in comparison is so small compared to that we are limited in what we can say about it. If that is the case for a planet in our solar system, how much more for a planet not in our solar system. If that is the case for something not in our solar system - how much for the Source of universal reality which way above that by magnitudes we can't even calculate.

What Torath Mosheh Jews can say comes from the Torah that Hashem gave and from the Nevi'im that Hashem transmitted information to. With that there is a philosophical debate that has existed of - based on what we know how exactly does that work? This is a philosophical debate and it is something that is often problematic because of "human language" is often not enough.

Again, I will stress - What Torath Mosheh Jews can say about Hashem comes from the Torah that Hashem gave and from the Nevi'im that Hashem transmitted information to. How much of that descriptions can be considered metaphor and how much is not, is a debate for some of them. YET, it can really only happen in the langauge of the Torah in Hebrew - the langauge that Hashem gave the Torah in. Otherwise, foreign linquistic concepts are being employed and even more lacking.

Thus, the point that Rabbi Sa'adya Gaon, Rabbi Hai Gaon, Rav Bahhya ben Pequdah, Rabbi Yehudah Halewi, Rabbi Ibn Ezra, Rambam, Rabbi Avraham ben-Rambam, Rabbi Mosheh Hayyim Luzzatto, etc. were making is that in reality the language of humanity is only able to provide us with reletive examples in our understanding. At some point we can't really fully grasp Hashem while being limited by time and our physical bodies that are bound by time. No different than how I can't describe to someone the day to day events of one billion years when I won't even live that long. The Torah was given to Israel to give us a language with which to discuss concepts that we can relate to in regards to our interactions with Hashem.
 
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rosends

Well-Known Member
So, rosends, are you saying that in reality, the Source of Reality mentioned in the Torah DOESN'T care deeply about human affairs and is NOT intimately involved in human existence and experience? But wants it to appear to humans that he is and that he does? And that he or it is only involved in human existence and experience merely because... he chooses to be?
No, I am saying that God does "care" if we try to apply human emotional investment on to God but that trying to quantify God's "emotions" is, itself, a failed experiment. If we are forced to put God in a linguistic and human-emotional-construct box, then "yes, God cares" but that is a silly thing to try and do a priori.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
No, I am saying that God does "care" if we try to apply human emotional investment on to God but that trying to quantify God's "emotions" is, itself, a failed experiment. If we are forced to put God in a linguistic and human-emotional-construct box, then "yes, God cares" but that is a silly thing to try and do a priori.
But isn't "caring" an emotion?
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
David Davidovich said:
Well, that wasn't so hard. However, why is it that those verses are only about the Israeli nation that had not turned away from Avodah Zara, but Isaiah 10:32-12:6 is about the coming of the Jewish mashiach?

See my emphasis and font changes above. Also, see Isaiah on Moshiach.
Because if you read them all the way to the end they explain what will eventually happen even if they didn't return to the Torah. Again, you have to remember that chapter numbers and verse numbers didn't exist when texts were written. If you look at the Yeshayahu (Isaiah) scroll there are no divisions of chapters and verses. This was a Christian invention. Thus, you don't have the ability to seperate ideas in the originals. I.e. the whole text was directed at the Israeli/Jews of that generation and it was seen that they had important information for future generation of Jews.
That wasn't my doing. That was www.chabad.org's doing. Therefore, that is why I posted that link to that article above. So, did Chadbad.org not do that right?
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
Okay, but good guys and bad guys isn't found in the texts. If the world collectively saw that a particular something was reality and nothing can stop it, change it, and it comes from what put everything in the universe in place it would logically mean that most rational people would want to fullfil what makes logical sense rather than follow paths that lead to nowhere.
Such as Adam and Eve? :anguished:
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
No, I am saying that God does "care" if we try to apply human emotional investment on to God but that trying to quantify God's "emotions" is, itself, a failed experiment. If we are forced to put God in a linguistic and human-emotional-construct box, then "yes, God cares" but that is a silly thing to try and do a priori.
How is saying God is capable of emotions, quantifying God?
How is it "a priori" when this is how God is described in Torah?
How is denying God having emotions and denying God caring NOT a priori ( based on a logical deduction lacking observation )?
What we say in Shacharit is a silly thing to do?
 
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Such as Adam and Eve? :anguished:

Yes. Because they didn't initially have the type of experience with tov and ra that they had after they made their choice. Also, not like we have. Yet, they are examples of what humanity can acheive, where humanity can make missteps, and the reason to correct ourselves when do. There is a whole group of discussions about when Adam corrected his misstep.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
That wasn't my doing. That was www.chabad.org's doing. Therefore, that is why I posted that link to that article above. So, did Chadbad.org not do that right?

No. Most Jewish texts all picked up the concept of marking chapters and verses, for the sake of tracking. Yet, it is not something we came up with. It was a Christian invention originally. That is one of the reasons that Christians bibles sometimes have different verse number designations from Jewish ones.

If one recognizes that originally there were no chapter or verse numbers then one knows that some of that is arbitrary. I.e. the chapters more than anything else are arbitrary. The concept of a start and stop of a sentence was already know. Just prior to the Masorites it wasn't marked.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
But isn't "caring" an emotion?

Based on the English definition, if one is saying the following.

1678596336118.png


If one understands that for the benefit of a conversation in "English" one has to use words that English speakers understand, yet one knows that they are using said metaphorically when the thing being described has no physiology then the word is used for the sake of the conversation. Yet, if a person wants to ask how that works when said thing has no has no physiology then you have to go into details that be confusing.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The Torah was given to Israel to give us a language with which to discuss concepts that we can relate to in regards to our interactions with Hashem.
The Torah also brings language with which to discuss concepts that we can relate to in regards to Hashem interacting with us.

The same way that a person on earth can't quantify fully a chemical process that is taking place on Jupiter, because of our limited scope of that planet. We know it is there, we know it exists, but the planet we are in comparison is so small compared to that we are limited in what we can say about it. If that is the case for a planet in our solar system, how much more for a planet not in our solar system. If that is the case for something not in our solar system - how much for the Source of universal reality which way above that by magnitudes we can't even calculate.
Except, when it comes to Hashem, contact has been made with us. So the chemical process you're describing above is not happening on Jupiter. It might have come from Jupiter, but it's fallen to earth. Sure, we can't fully describe what's happening on Jupiter based on this chemical process. But no one is trying to do that. We're just studying the chemical process that is accessible.

Talking about Hashem's emotions is not fully trying to describe anything.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
So the chemical process you're describing above is not happening on Jupiter. It might have come from Jupiter, but it's fallen to earth. Sure, we can't fully describe what's happening on Jupiter based on this chemical process. But no one is trying to do that. We're just studying the chemical process that is accessible.

That is not what I am talking about. I didn't write anything about a chemical process from Jupiter that fell to earth. I am talking about chemical processes taking placein Jupiter that is known to happen but no one was there to witness it first hand. Further, no one has existed long enough to describe how it started, its history, and all of its functions. What is being studied is being studied a) by probes sent into space, b) a probe that was sent into Jupitor and eventually got destroyed, and c) scans made from earth. All of this was performed with a great distance between actual humans and Jupitor and with the limits of the techology that every genation that has studied has available.

1678599354539.png


1678599404046.png
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
That is not what I am talking about. I didn't write anything about a chemical process from Jupiter that fell to earth. I am talking about chemical processes taking placein Jupiter that is known to happen but no one was there to witness it first hand.

The Torah did not happen in space far far away from earth. Moshe witnessed it, Avraham witnessed it, the entire nation witnessed it. That is why the analogy fails. The chemical process didn't happen far away, it happened on earth.

Do you disagree? Were our ancestor's slaves in egypt? Or is "slaves" a metaphor and "egypt" a metaphor? It's OK if this is your belief, but, that is not Torath Moshe.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
.

Then it's not like a chemical reaction on Jupiter is it?

It is in terms of what is known and what is not known and why. I.e. Jupitor is considered a gas giant and not a planet. Thus, a part of Jupitor being on earth would not be a solid and would either be part of the atmosphere of earth or to have at one time had an effect on the solid's of the planet in a way that is beyond most of human history ability to study in full.

If humanity hasn't been able to fully quantify things in our own solar system it reasonalbe to state that humanity can't fully quantify what created the entire universe. That is the point.
 
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