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For Torath Mosheh Jews Only: Who is Hashem?

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
David Davidovich said:
But it seems like this 'free will' business is a 'messy' business and I wonder if bad choices are still going to exist after mashiach comes. (Daniel 7:13-14)
Free-will can be but it doesn't have to be. For example, I know people who want all the benefits of free but none of the pitfalls. For example, there are people who want the ability to do what they want, no matter who it hurts or offends, but they themselves don't want people hurting them or offending them. This begs the question. Who is right in any given situation and who gets to decide whose free will trumps anothers. Everyone wants the right to do what they want, also the ability for the world to work they want it, but who gets to say what is right when people have conflicting interests? All of this is a part of free will. Most people don't want their ability to choose what to do to be taken away from them, thus for some people the pitfalls of free will are worth it rather than being robots.
None of that still addressed my ponderings about whether or not bad choices are still going to exist after mashiach comes. :rolleyes: Meaning: Are things basically going to be the same after mashiach arrives since risky 'free will' will continue to exist?
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
The only way to answer that is to ask someone who has bad or destructive behavior. Some people are simply not taught that they can do better or be better. Here are a few extreme situations.

Well, that's 3 minutes and 29 seconds of my life that I can never get back. :rolleyes:
Video not working.
This one is on one side of the spectrum but it shows what I am talking about in terms of how people change a situation by just applying some basic principles that are rational.

Uh-huh... So, I guess now dogs are the same as humans. :rolleyes: And BTW, why does one of your Hebrew texts at Daniel 12:2 say:
2And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awaken-these for eternal life, and those for disgrace, for eternal abhorrence.בוְרַבִּ֕ים מִיְּשֵׁנֵ֥י אַדְמַת־עָפָ֖ר יָקִ֑יצוּ אֵלֶּה לְחַיֵּ֣י עוֹלָ֔ם וְאֵ֥לֶּה לַֽחֲרָפ֖וֹת לְדִרְא֥וֹן עוֹלָֽם:
Also, see the English version the Orthodox Jewish Bible:
2 And rabbim of them that sleep in the admat aphar (dust of the ground) shall awake, some to Chayyei Olam (Everlasting Life), and some to reproaches (shames) and Dera’on Olam (Everlasting Contempt, Abhorrence, Aversion, i.e., Everlasting Gehinnom.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
None of that still addressed my ponderings about whether or not bad choices are still going to exist after mashiach comes. :rolleyes: Meaning: Are things basically going to be the same after mashiach arrives since risky 'free will' will continue to exist?
Sorry that was addressed in previous posts and threads. Bad choices "can" exist even with a Davidic king - yet how they are dealt with will be more efficient. The Torah tells one how to deal with them. That is the reason for there to be a Temple in Jerusalem - it was part of the process or recognizing and working through bad decisions. We won't stop being human, but that generation will be better at it and better at inspiring and teaching others how to do it better. Another way of looking at it is that there will be less desire to actively go out and make mistakes that are detrimental to humanity. Especially when it is clear that everyone knows that Hashem exists in reality and isn't some religious concept that is up for debate. I hope that helps.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
The only way to answer that is to ask someone who has bad or destructive behavior. Some people are simply not taught that they can do better or be better. Here are a few extreme situations.
@Ehav4Ever, you may not have had time to answer the last part of my post #254, but to ask it again:
And why is it that we grow old and die and get sick along the way as well as some people being born with defects, deformities, and diseases?

Plus, could you please elaborate a little bit more in regard to how some humans are already getting there individually in one level or another? :anguished: :anguished: :anguished: :anguished:
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Well, that's 3 minutes and 29 seconds of my life that I can never get back. :rolleyes:

Video not working.

Uh-huh... So, I guess now dogs are the same as humans. :rolleyes: And BTW, why does one of your Hebrew texts at Daniel 12:2 say:

Also, see the English version the Orthodox Jewish Bible:

It may be 3:29 but it says a lot about the choices people make and how they defend them.

Last I checked in zoology class dogs are not human, but according to the video we humans have had an affect on them that sometimes is not for the positive.

In terms of Daniel, because it was written in a mix of Hebrew and Aramaic with a lot of imagery - some of which Daniel was not allowed to fully understand. Also, because verses 1, 2, and 3, are connected. As well as verses 4 to the end. Again, one can read Daniel based on one verse and even then even Daniel was told he was not allowed to fully make certain things clear. Essentially, it is talking about how eventually there will be a resurrection of the dead with a focus on those who have done the mitzvoth of Hashem.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
And why is it that we grow old and die and get sick along the way as well as some people being born with defects, deformities, and diseases?

Plus, could you please elaborate a little bit more in regard to how some humans are already getting there individually in one level or another?
The Rambam discusses this in the Mishnah Torah. Below is an attempt at translating it. It will give you the general idea, but again remember it is a translation.



 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
It may be 3:29 but it says a lot about the choices people make and how they defend them.
But that video never said anything about how "Some people are simply not taught that they can do better or be better" as you had said.
Last I checked in zoology class dogs are not human, but according to the video we humans have had an affect on them that sometimes is not for the positive.
Right, but I had only said that because the only thing that your video said related to what you were saying was from the 1:34 mark to the 2:01 mark which was that dogs aren't beyond help. However, what applies to dogs, doesn't necessarily apply to humans. Plus, if you click on the 1:34 video link that I provided above and listen to it again, what Louis Theroux is actually saying is that the human state can actually get to the place where it can be beyond help and was asking the dog trainer if dogs can become like that too.
In terms of Daniel, because it was written in a mix of Hebrew and Aramaic with a lot of imagery - some of which Daniel was not allowed to fully understand. Also, because verses 1, 2, and 3, are connected. As well as verses 4 to the end. Again, one can read Daniel based on one verse and even then even Daniel was told he was not allowed to fully make certain things clear. Essentially, it is talking about how eventually there will be a resurrection of the dead with a focus on those who have done the mitzvoth of Hashem.
Well, maybe we can go by what Louis Theroux said in your video.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
If it's long, I'm not reading it. You've already worn me out, brother. ;)
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
But that video never said anything about how "Some people are simply not taught that they can do better or be better" as you had said.

As I said about it, it says a lot about the choices people make and how they defend them. Also, as Louis was questioning him he did let on that he knew better. That is why he kept saying he didn't know why things were the way they were, "You have to ask whoever made up the code." He also talked about what he may consider doing if someone like Louis were to be put in the cell because he [Louis] in this man's view was a "good man." By being human, his statements point to him recognizing that the "code" doesn't really make any sense but he can't change it so he accepts it.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Right, but I had only said that because the only thing that your video said related to what you were saying was from the 1:34 mark to the 2:01 mark which was that dogs aren't beyond help. However, what applies to dogs, doesn't necessarily apply to humans.

It does if it shows that a person can correct a problem in nature by simply applying himself in a logical and caring way. It also shows that there are corrections that can happen in people by having a correct place in the natural world. As the dog whisperer stated, he hadn't yet personally met a dog that he can't work with. He also stated that the problem with domesticaed dogs, was created by people. He also shows it can be corrected with the right type of commitment.

Of course what applies to animals doesn't always apply to people, BUT the Torah perspective is that Torath Mosheh Jews can learn from all things happening in the world included animal behavior.

Yes, of course there are people who can choose to the opposite of what makes logical sense. Yet, is the reason that the 613 mitzvoth for Jews has mitzvoth for establishing a Torah based judicial system. The same for non-Jews with the Noachide laws.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
Not a problem. It does though answer your questions, especially about Daniel. ;)
Usually in forums like this, people who are reading are just looking for the basic answers to questions. However, a lot of times you'll say that the answer is so long and so deep and so complicated in the Hebrew language that you'll might not understand it or that you might need a conference video call with you to explain it; but then you'll simply explain it like A, B, C, 1, 2, 3. Like the Genesis 1 thing and the Day the of the Lord thing. Therefore, I'll just have to forfeit the TMJ viewpoint on those questions.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
As I said about it, it says a lot about the choices people make and how they defend them. Also, as Louis was questioning him he did let on that he knew better. That is why he kept saying he didn't know why things were the way they were, "You have to ask whoever made up the code." He also talked about what he may consider doing if someone like Louis were to be put in the cell because he [Louis] in this man's view was a "good man." By being human, his statements point to him recognizing that the "code" doesn't really make any sense but he can't change it so he accepts it.
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
It does if it shows that a person can correct a problem in nature by simply applying himself in a logical and caring way. It also shows that there are corrections that can happen in people by having a correct place in the natural world. As the dog whisperer stated, he hadn't yet personally met a dog that he can't work with. He also stated that the problem with domesticaed dogs, was created by people. He also shows it can be corrected with the right type of commitment.

Of course what applies to animals doesn't always apply to people, BUT the Torah perspective is that Torath Mosheh Jews can learn from all things happening in the world included animal behavior.

Yes, of course there are people who can choose to the opposite of what makes logical sense. Yet, is the reason that the 613 mitzvoth for Jews has mitzvoth for establishing a Torah based judicial system. The same for non-Jews with the Noachide laws.
I still don't see the whole point of letting human beings run amok for thousands of years in a state of disobedience and violence and corruption and pain, etc. Although, you seem to have indicated that things really aren't that bad. Plus, I'm not sure if you ever answered my question as to why the Jewish mashiach is even coming.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
It took me long enough, but way back in post #80 on page 4, I had asked about all the malach (angels) who were surrounding Hashem who shouted in joy at the creation of the world and I think that @Ehav4Ever responded with something about that being metaphysical symbolic language representing various elements of reality. :shrug: However, I have a similar question about 1 Kings 22:19–23:

19 Micaiah said, “Therefore hear Yahweh’s word. I saw Yahweh sitting on his throne, and all the army of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20 Yahweh said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ One said one thing; and another said another.

21 A spirit came out and stood before Yahweh, and said, ‘I will entice him.’

22 Yahweh said to him, ‘How?’

He said,
‘I will go out and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’

He said, ‘You will entice him, and will also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Now therefore, behold, Yahweh has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and Yahweh has spoken evil concerning you.”
Therefore, what in the world is going on here???
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Usually in forums like this, people who are reading are just looking for the basic answers to questions.

For Torah. There are often no basic answers for such a question. If there was we Jews would study it once and be done with it for the rest of our lives. Again, that is the difference between Torah and religion. Religion proports to give you some basic answers and have you done with it. Torath Mosheh doesn't do such a thing. We spend years presenting ourselves with questions, working through them, answering them, then going back and challenging our questions and answers we think/thought we had. That is on everything, including something that seems small.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
It took me long enough, but way back in post #80 on page 4, I had asked about all the malach (angels) who were surrounding Hashem who shouted in joy at the creation of the world and I think that @Ehav4Ever responded with something about that being metaphysical symbolic language representing various elements of reality. :shrug: However, I have a similar question about 1 Kings 22:19–23:
Therefore, what in the world is going on here???

Again, English translation issues. You have the wrong starting point. First, you have to starting at verse 1 and all the way through the end of the chapter. It explains what is happening, and is the context for the statements you are asking about. Further, the ONLY way for you to understanding what you asking about is to know that a Navi is and how Nevuah works. W/O this can't understand what in the original "the Hebrew." Otherwise you don't have the basis for what is being disucssed. For example, the Rambam explains nevuah in this way. (Note, every listed below is the definition for a navi, yet for the sake of your question I have highlighted a few areas that pertain to your question.

Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Yesodei HaTorah
It is [one] of the foundations of [our] faith that Hashem conveys nevuah/prophecy to man.
Nevuah/prophecy is bestowed only upon a very wise sage of a strong character, who is never overcome by his natural inclinations in any regard. Instead, with his mind, he overcomes his natural inclinations at all times. He must [also] possess a very broad and accurate mental capacity.

A person who is full of all these qualities and is physically sound [is fit for nevuah/prophecy]. When he enters the Pardes and is drawn into these great and sublime concepts, if he possesses an accurate mental capacity to comprehend and grasp [them], he will become holy. He will advance and separate himself from the masses who proceed in the darkness of the time. He must continue and diligently train himself not to have any thoughts whatsoever about fruitless things or the vanities and intrigues of the times.
Instead, his mind should constantly be directed upward, bound beneath [Hashem's] throne [of Glory, striving] to comprehend the holy and pure forms and gazing at the wisdom of the Holy One, blessed be He, in its entirety, [in its manifold manifestations] from the most elevated [divine inspirationual] form until the navel of the earth, appreciating His greatness from them. [After these preparations,] the divine divine inspiration will immediately rest upon him.
There are a number of levels among the Navi/prophets. Just as with regard to wisdom, one sage is greater than his colleague, so, too, with regard to nevuah/prophecy, one Navi/prophet is greater than another. They all, [however, share certain commonalities]. They receive Navi/prophetic visions only in a visionary dream or during the day after slumber has overtaken them, as [Numbers 12:6] states: "I make Myself known to him in a vision. I speak to him in a dream."
When any of them prophesy, their limbs tremble, their physical powers become weak, they lose control of their senses, and thus, their minds are free to comprehend what they see, as [Genesis 15:12] states concerning Abraham: "and a great, dark dread fell over him." Similarly, Daniel [10:8] states: "My appearance was horribly changed and I retained no strength."
When the divine inspiration rests upon him, his soul becomes intermingled with the angels called ishim, and he will be transformed into a different person and will understand with a knowledge different from what it was previously. He will rise above the level of other wise men, as [the Navi/prophet, Samuel] told Saul [I Samuel 10:6]: "[The divine inspiration of Hashem will descend upon you] and you shall prophesy with them. And you will be transformed into a different person."
There are a number of levels among the Navi/Navi/prophets. Just as with regard to wisdom, one sage is greater than his colleague, so, too, with regard to nevuah/nevuah/prophecy, one Navi/Navi/prophet is greater than another. They all, [however, share certain commonalities]. They receive Navi/Navi/prophetic visions only in a visionary dream or during the day after slumber has overtaken them, as [Numbers 12:6] states: "I make Myself known to him in a vision. I speak to him in a dream."
When any of them prophesy, their limbs tremble, their physical powers become weak, they lose control of their senses, and thus, their minds are free to comprehend what they see, as [Genesis 15:12] states concerning Abraham: "and a great, dark dread fell over him." Similarly, Daniel [10:8] states: "My appearance was horribly changed and I retained no strength."
When a Navi/Navi/prophet is informed of a message in a vision, it is granted to him in metaphoric imagery. Immediately, the interpretation of the imagery is imprinted upon his heart, and he knows its meaning.
For example, the ladder with the angels ascending and descending envisioned by the patriarch, Jacob, was an allegory for the empires and their subjugation [of his descendants]. Similarly, the creatures Ezekiel saw, the boiling pot and the rod from an almond tree envisioned by Jeremiah, the scroll Ezekiel saw, and the measure seen by Zechariah [were all metaphoric images]. This is also true with regard to the other Navi/Navi/prophets.

Some would relate the allegory and its explanation as these did. Others would relate only the explanation. At times, they would relate only the imagery without explaining it, as can be seen in some of the prophecies of Ezekiel and Zechariah.

All of the prophecies come in the form of metaphoric imagery and allegories.
All the Navi/Navi/prophets do not prophesy whenever they desire. Instead, they must concentrate their attention [upon divine inspirationual concepts] and seclude themselves, [waiting] in a happy, joyous mood, because nevuah/nevuah/prophecy cannot rest upon a person when he is sad or languid, but only when he is happy.
Therefore, the Navi/Navi/prophets' disciples would always have a harp, drum, flute, and lyre [before them when] they were seeking nevuah/nevuah/prophecy. This is what is meant by the expression [I Samuel 10:5]: "They were prophesying" - i.e., following the path of nevuah/nevuah/prophecy until they would actually prophesy - as one might say, "So and so aspires to greatness."
Those who aspire to nevuah/prophecy are called "the disciples of the Navi/prophets." Even though they concentrate their attention, it is possible that the Divine Presence will rest upon them, and it is possible that it will not rest upon them.
All the statements made above describe the path of nevuah/prophecy of all the early and later Navi/prophets, with the exception of Moses, our teacher, the master of all Navi/prophets.
What is the difference between Moses' nevuah/prophecy and that of all the other Navi/prophets? [Divine insight is bestowed upon] all the [other] Navi/prophets in a dream or vision. Moses, our teacher, would prophesy while standing awake, as [Numbers 7:89] states: "When Moses came into the Tent of Meeting to speak to Him, he heard the Voice speaking to him."
[Divine insight is bestowed upon] all the [other] Navi/prophets through the medium of an angel. Therefore, they perceive only metaphoric imagery and allegories. Moses, our teacher, [would prophesy] without the medium of an angel, as [Numbers 12:8] states: "Mouth to mouth I speak to him," and [Exodus 33:11] states: "And Hashem spoke to Moses face to face." [Numbers 12:8] states: "He gazes upon the image of Hashem" - i.e., there was no metaphor. Rather, he would perceive the matter in its fullness, without metaphor or allegory. The Torah testifies concerning him [Numbers 12:8]: ["I speak to him...] manifestly, without allegory." His appreciation of nevuah/prophecy would not be through metaphor, but through open revelation, appreciating the matter in its fullness. All the [other] Navi/prophets are overawed, terrified, and confounded [by the revelations they experience], but Moses, our teacher, would not [respond in this manner], as [Exodus 33:11] relates: "[Hashem spoke to Moses...] as a man speaks to a friend" - i.e., just as a person will not be awe-struck from hearing his friend's words, so, too, Moses' mental power was sufficient to comprehend the words of nevuah/prophecy while he was standing in a composed state.
All the [other] Navi/prophets cannot prophesy whenever they desire. Moses, our teacher, was different. Whenever he desired, the ruah haqodesh/divine inspiration would envelop him, and nevuah/prophecy would rest upon him. He did not have to concentrate his attention to prepare himself [for nevuah/prophecy], because his [mind] was always concentrated, prepared, and ready [to appreciate divine inspirationual truth] as the angels [are]. Therefore, he would prophesy at all times, as [Numbers 9:8] states: "Stand and hear what Hashem will command you."
He was promised this by Hashem, as [implied by Deuteronomy 5:27-28]: "Go and tell them: `Return to your tents,' but you stand here together with Me." This should be interpreted to mean: When nevuah/prophecy departs from all the [other] Navi/prophets, they return to their "tents" - i.e., the needs of the body like other people. Therefore, they do not separate themselves from their wives. Moses, our teacher, never returned to his original "tent." Therefore, he separated himself from women and everything of that nature forever. He bound his mind to the Eternal Rock. [Accordingly,] the glory never left him forever. The flesh of his countenance shone, [for] he became holy like the angels.
There is the possibility that a Navi/prophet will experience nevuah/prophecy for his own sake alone - i.e., to expand his mental capacities and to increase his knowledge - [allowing him] to know more about the lofty concepts than he knew before.
It is also possible that he will be sent to one of the nations of the world, or to the inhabitants of a particular city or kingdom, to prepare them and to inform them what they should do or to prevent them [from continuing] the evil which they are doing.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
@David Davidovich Continuing the above:

Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Yesodei HaTorah
When he is sent [on such a mission], he is given a sign or a wonder [to perform], so that the people will know that Hashem has truly sent him.
Not everyone who performs signs or wonders should be accepted as a Navi/prophet: only a person who is known to be fit for nevuah/prophecy beforehand; i.e., his wisdom and his [good] deeds surpass those of all his contemporaries. If he follows the paths of nevuah/prophecy in holiness, separating himself from worldly matters, and afterwards performs a sign or wonder and states that he was sent by Hashem, it is a mitzvah to listen to him, as [Deuteronomy 18:15] states: "Listen to him."
It is possible that a person will perform a sign or wonder even though he is not a Navi/prophet - rather, the wonder will have [another cause] behind it. It is, nevertheless, a mitzvah to listen to him. Since he is a wise man of stature and fit for nevuah/prophecy, we accept [his nevuah/prophecy as true], for so have we been commanded.
[To give an example of a parallel:] We are commanded to render a [legal] judgment based on the testimony of two witnesses. Even though they may testify falsely, since we know them to be acceptable [as witnesses], we presume that they [are telling the truth].
Considering these matters and the like, [Deuteronomy 29:28] states: "The hidden matters are for Hashem, our Hashem, but what is revealed is for us and our children," and [I Samuel 16:7] states: "Man sees what is revealed to the eyes, but Hashem sees into the heart."
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I still don't see the whole point of letting human beings run amok for thousands of years in a state of disobedience and violence and corruption and pain, etc. Although, you seem to have indicated that things really aren't that bad. Plus, I'm not sure if you ever answered my question as to why the Jewish mashiach is even coming.

Think of it this way. At what level do you want every human prevented from doing something that is incorrect? Meaning, how far do you want every human being, including the two of us, stopped from doing what we want to do? Also, how far do you every human punished for things they do wrong? If humans want free will decisions taken away from, which is where you question would lead, why do so many people claim to want to have freedom or the right to do what they want?

Now to answer your question, because "free-will" is a gift a part of the reality of any gift is that someone can abuse it. Yet, Hashem has provided the ability for those who do mitvoth to a) survive, b) avoid, or c) overcome those who misuse their free-will. YET, that would also imply that said people themselves also have to be correctly using their free-will or else they are just as culpable for what they do as the people they are trying to overcome.

Another issue, we learn from the Torah is that there are times when some bad people are allowed to exist becasuse they will produce children or descendants who will do good in the world. Also, some of these people end up doing good after seeing their parents or grandparents doing bad with their free-will. There are also some bad people who turn their lives around once they realize their mistakes and thus they change the world when they wake up, so to speak.

There is a recent example of this:



The result of the above was that child was adopted by one of the police officers that saved him. So, why did Ronnie Oneal exist - possibly so that his son could exist and improve the world.

 
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