For Torath Mosheh Jews Only: Who is Hashem?

[Ehav4Ever]

That seems to imply that no other person on earth was seeking to make his whole life dependent on Hashem in all areas and angles.

No, it doesn't. Because the Tanakh in discusses a number of non-Jews who did exactly that. Yithro, the father in law of Mosheh was one of them. General Na'aman who met with Elisha the Israel prophet and went back to his home a Noachide. Noach and his sons, who was not a Jews, are more. The entire city of NIneveh mentioned in the book of Yonah (Jonah) are others.

So, no this is not true and not something I wrote or implied.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But here you are distinguishing that there are also Jews who are convincing wayward Jews to return to Torah.

Yeah, because two to three of the mtizvoth of the Torah direct Jews to help lost Jews to return to the Torah that Hashem gave at Mount Sinai. Further, the rabbi is happy to see the woman feeling better physically and mentally along with her keeping the mitzvoth of the Torah.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

However, what about the people who were destroyed who didn't do what it wanted such as the people in Noah's days and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them along with Lot's wife and Lot's daughter's fiancés? Because their fiancés only laughed and thought that the warning of the destruction of the cities was a joke.

We discussed this in previous threads. As I mentioned then the answer is the same. Hashem, being outside of time, had already dictated that certain actions lead to certain places. A person can either avoid them with certain actions, reach them slowly by other actions, or spead themselves into them with other actions. The time Noach's generation sped themselves into the direction even when Noach had tried to warn them for almost 100 years. Sodom and Gomorrah refused to set up socially correct and judicially correct courts, thus they sped themselves in the direction where the didn't even have 10 men who kept the 7 mitzvoth correctly. We also know that corruption in the justice system is a sign of social collapse.

Further, Lot's sons. We all know that associating with the wrong people and choosing to be in the worst place at the worst time can affect a person. Further, the oral explains that Lot's son in laws were fully integrated into the Sodom society.

Recent events are classic examples of this. Maddoff and FTX are good examples of people suffering because they were connected to the wrong people. Those people go down and they take them down with them.

The video below is a lesson from Lot's involvement in a city that had social and judicial injustice. This company was able to get out of the SVB system before things fell apart because they were warned, lik Lot, and didn't just there and let it ride.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, to be honest with you, it's kind of hard to remember and to keep up with all the information that you provide because sometimes you provide a ton of information and more information than I ever wanted or would ever need to get a basic answer.

You ask a lot of good thought out question. Well thought out questions deserve well versed and detailed answers. There is a saying that exists in Jewish text of, "There are 70 faces to the Torah." Thus, I try to give as many of those faces as possible.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Also, if you refer me to a long Hebrew answer or video, then I'm sorry, but I don't care. It's a basic and straight forward question.

This is a bit of a strange response. I don't respond to all of your questions with long answers, only when you are asking for the detail. Further, I respond with videos when it is appropriate based on your question whether than us writing back and forth for days/weeks/months about something that a simple video can answer in 5 to 10 minutes.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

This is also interesting, and confirms what I said, Chabad does not learn Guide for the Perplexed. Here the Rebbe is directing people to Mishneh Torah, instead of the Guide.

Just so you know, I haven't been quoting from the Guide to the Perplexed in this thread. My responses earlier were from a lot of different sources, not just the Rambam. Also, when I did quote the Rambam earlier I was quoting from the Mishnah Torah only, something Chabad does learn from. You were the one who brought up the Guide initially, not me.

Also, it makes sense that the Lubavitcher Rebbe would direct people to the Mishnah Torah, the Rambam himself stated that the Mishnah Torah was what he directed to the average person that is why it was written simple Hebrew where his other writings were in Judeo-Arabic. The Lubavitcher Rebbe (between 0:16 to 2:18) even backed up what the Rambam stated what the purpose of the Moreh was/is.

Essentially, everything you just posted is what I had already posted about what Chabad's position was on the Moreh to begin with.

Besides, we all know that Chabad is not the only Jewish community in the world. Jews of the Mizrah, Maghreb, and Asia have been learning from the writings of not only the Rambam, including the Moreh Nevuchim, but also from Rav Saadya Gaon, Rav Hai Gaon, Rav Yehudah Halewi, Rav Bahya ibn Paquda, Rav Avraham ben-Rambam, Rav Mosheh Hayyim Luzzatto, etc. for a quite a long time.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, actually you have. And I could even try to search how in various threads you have said something like, 'Well, look at how the Jews have suffered' in a way that it trumps all the other suffering that we were discussing. However, I will not take the time to do that tonight.

BTW, I read your statement here and I will say the following.

I would be willing to donate $50 to your favorite charity if you can find some place where I wrote:

"Well, look at how the Jews have suffered' in a way that it trumps all the other suffering that we were discussing."

I can give you hint. That is not a quote of anything I have written and I don't make those kinds of statements. Are you sure that is something that are mistakenly attributing me? Also, are you sure what you wrote is a quote? You have quote marks at the start of that statement, but I don't think you are quoting me.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

View attachment 73315

And according to this, Rambam would have changed things based on what he learned from Jewish Mysticism.

If you listen to their conversation they are speculating. Yet, if you remember they also claim that there are things the Rambam wrote that only sourced in the Zohar. So, one of the theories they intertain is that the Rambam did have access to the Zohar. They even discuss the idea that the Rambam only became aware of the Zohar in life as a theory.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

View attachment 73313

That ^^ is a pretty strong rebuttal of the extreme conclusion that God is not effected by anything a person does.

He doesn't say the following:

Besides, what he stated is exactly in the realm of what the Rambam wrote in the Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Yesodei HaTorah.

משנה תורה - הלכות יסודי התורה​

Also,

 

[Ehav4Ever]

View attachment 73313

That ^^ is a pretty strong rebuttal of the extreme conclusion that God is not effected by anything a person does.

Again, your words not mine. So, let's see what is described about what statements like what the

 

[dybmh]

He doesn't say the following:

He actually does.

Not only does the Rebbe reject this entire notion, He rejected it on his Bar Mitzvah, and it's a custom to reject it by many Bar-Mitzvah boys in the Chabad community.

https://www.sie.org/templates/sie/article_cdo/aid/2640834/jewish/Chapter-5-The-Maamar.htm

"G‑d’s emotional attributes are the source for the world ... Chassidus teaches that Hashem’s attributes are reflected in the human soul."

 

[dybmh]

Besides, we all know that Chabad is not the only Jewish community in the world

The questions are: is an uncaring, unfeeling, god what is described in Torah? Where did this concept originate?

I haven't been quoting from the Guide to the Perplexed in this thread. My responses earlier were from a lot of different sources, not just the Rambam

The "other sources" you've brought don't say what you claim they say. And you brought something you claimed was from Saadia Gaon that appears to be ... ummm ... fake.

The reason it's important to bring the Guide is because it shows where Rambam's god concept comes from. It's not from Torah. As shown, the justification in Mishneh Torah for Hashem lacking emotion is taking verses out of context. No other commentators read those verses that way, only Rambam. This leads a person to ask, why does Rambam make this claim about Hashem which is not in Torah? Answer: because he has adopted a greek god concept.

 

[dybmh]

Again, your words not mine. So, let's see what is described about what statements like what the

View attachment 73359
View attachment 73360
View attachment 73361
View attachment 73362

What I think you're missing, is that a mashal, an analogy, fails if there is not something similar between it and the subject being discussed. If you continue to chapter 11, and you read it objectively ( very important ), you'll see that there eventhough Hashem is far beyond there is also some similarity.

שֶׁגַּם אוֹתִיּוֹת הַדִּבּוּר וְהַמַּחֲשָׁבָה שֶׁבְּנֶפֶשׁ הָאָדָם, הֵן הַמְשָׁכוֹת מֵהַשֵּׂכֶל וְהַמִּדּוֹת שֶׁבַּנֶּפֶשׁ, מִמַּהוּתָן וְעַצְמוּתָן, כְּמוֹ שֶׁנִּתְבָּאֵר בְּמָקוֹם אַחֵר

So you keep repeating, HaKadosh Barachu does not have emotions like a human... but of course it does, where do you think our emotions came from? Hashem is not limited to only emotions like ours. That's the difference.

 

[dybmh]

If you listen to their conversation they are speculating. Yet, if you remember they also claim that there are things the Rambam wrote that only sourced in the Zohar. So, one of the theories they intertain is that the Rambam did have access to the Zohar. They even discuss the idea that the Rambam only became aware of the Zohar in life as a theory.

There are lots of theories. Everyone admits his brilliance. And so, each group wants to include him and say "he was one of us, he was promoting our ideas". Some say he was a secret kabbalist. Others say he was orthoprax ( he didn't believe any of it, just went through the motions. )

Were Maimonides and Some of His Followers Orthoprax? - TheTorah.com

The contemporary religious stakes are quite high. If Maimonides, who is regarded by the entire traditional camp in all its diversity as the bastion of halakhah, can in fact be shown to be a closet Orthroprax, then this approach attains some legitimacy, at least among the more liberal segments of...

www.thetorah.com

So, liberal folks want him to be liberal. Philoposhers want him to be a philosopher. Mystics want him to be a mystic.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

There are lots of theories.

Not theories. They were "speculating," which is fine.

Besides, the Rambam's own son explained the Rambam very well in his book (מלחמות השם) and in some of his other writings. Thus, the speculation is just that, speculation. What Avraham ben-Rambam wrote about his own father is not.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

He actually does.

Not only does the Rebbe reject this entire notion, He rejected it on his Bar Mitzvah, and it's a custom to reject it by many Bar-Mitzvah boys in the Chabad community.

https://www.sie.org/templates/sie/article_cdo/aid/2640834/jewish/Chapter-5-The-Maamar.htm

"G‑d’s emotional attributes are the source for the world ... Chassidus teaches that Hashem’s attributes are reflected in the human soul."

What you quoted is not at all anything like what I wrote. That is the reverse. Find me a statement where Chabad says.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The "other sources" you've brought don't say what you claim they say. And you brought something you claimed was from Saadia Gaon that appears to be ... ummm ... fake.

Show me evidence of something I brought up which was ummmm fake.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The questions are: is an uncaring, unfeeling, god what is described in Torah? Where did this concept originate?

Those are not my statements they are yours. Maybe you don't understand what I actually wrote.

 

[David Davidovich]

Also, as far as people who are helping people and leading people in the right direction, do you mean Jews helping other Jews? Because I recall you saying that Jews don't evangelize to non Jews. Although, you did mention that some of them may be keeping the 7 mitzvoths partially or some as a whole.

But here you are distinguishing that there are also Jews who are convincing wayward Jews to return to Torah.

Yeah, because two to three of the mtizvoth of the Torah direct Jews to help lost Jews to return to the Torah that Hashem gave at Mount Sinai. Further, the rabbi is happy to see the woman feeling better physically and mentally along with her keeping the mitzvoth of the Torah.

So, what about people who are helping people and leading people in the right direction?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

What I think you're missing, is that a mashal, an analogy, fails if there is not something similar between it and the subject being discussed. If you continue to chapter 11, and you read it objectively ( very important ), you'll see that there eventhough Hashem is far beyond there is also some similarity.

שֶׁגַּם אוֹתִיּוֹת הַדִּבּוּר וְהַמַּחֲשָׁבָה שֶׁבְּנֶפֶשׁ הָאָדָם, הֵן הַמְשָׁכוֹת מֵהַשֵּׂכֶל וְהַמִּדּוֹת שֶׁבַּנֶּפֶשׁ, מִמַּהוּתָן וְעַצְמוּתָן, כְּמוֹ שֶׁנִּתְבָּאֵר בְּמָקוֹם אַחֵר

So you keep repeating, HaKadosh Barachu does not have emotions like a human... but of course it does, where do you think our emotions came from? Hashem is not limited to only emotions like ours. That's the difference.

No, what is missed is that in English emotions are defined by terms that are physiological. The minute you use English terms that don't mean what ancient Hebrew means you create the danger of someone asking a question who has no history in the language completely misunderstanding what you are describing. Again, emotions "in English" are defined as:

Because you didn't start out defining your terms, you run the danger of someone assuming that you mean that the god you beleive in is "human" and has physiological and behavioral changes like humans do. Then you also run of the danger of someone, not knowing Hebrew, saying that the god you beleive in can have things like uncontroable rage, depression, fear, anxiety, etc. just like humans do (physiological and behavioral changes) and just like ancient societies beleived their gods did/do. Further, because you are taking in a forum, interacting with/learning from/debating, with people who have Greek ideas/Greek inspired ideas you are also running the danger of helping their causes by supplying them with validation on their ideas because you are using their terminology which means some very specific things to them.

Then you end up having to define, based on a standard definition, what human derived emotions the god you are describing has and which one said god doesn't have. Then you also run the danger of someone asking you something like, "What was this god's emotions/physiological and behavioral changes on the exact day the below event happened? Were these emotions/physiological and behavioral changes present thousands of years before the event, at the exact time of the event, after they actually the people who sponsored it did the event? Did said god have conflicting emotions/physiological and behavioral changes about something else at the exact same time? What source do you have the god you are describing's emotions/physiological and behavioral changes on that exact day/moment? etc."