For Torath Mosheh Jews Only: Who is Hashem?

[Ehav4Ever]

Therefore, I'll just have to forfeit the TMJ viewpoint on those questions.

No problem.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Plus, I'm not sure if you ever answered my question as to why the Jewish mashiach is even coming.

I did in the videos I posted on the topic. In short, because the optimal situation for Jews is:

1. To keep Torah as Hashem gave it.
2. To do #1 in the land of Israel.
3. For #1 and #2 to happen in a national sense.

In order for there to be nation, that does all three of these we Jews need a leader who is Torah based. His job will be to lead by Torah, teach Torah to the nation, and make sure the nation is financially stable.

 

[David Davidovich]

I did in the videos I posted on the topic. In short, because the optimal situation for Jews is:

1. To keep Torah as Hashem gave it.
2. To do #1 in the land of Israel.
3. For #1 and #2 to happen in a national sense.

In order for there to be nation, that does all three of these we Jews need a leader who is Torah based. His job will be to lead by Torah, teach Torah to the nation, and make sure the nation is financially stable.

I don't know... but it almost sounds as if your... savior, Hashem, cares more about Jews than he does for the rest of humankind. Also, some of your answer concerning the Jews sound very Jewish-centric as if the Jews have suffered more than any other human group in the world. Plus, I had thought about starting a thread about Deuteronomy 32:8-9:

8When the Most High gave nations their lot, when He separated the sons of man, He set up the boundaries of peoples according to the number of the children of Israel.		חבְּהַנְחֵ֤ל עֶלְיוֹן֙ גּוֹיִ֔ם בְּהַפְרִיד֖וֹ בְּנֵ֣י אָדָ֑ם יַצֵּב֙ גְּבֻלֹ֣ת עַמִּ֔ים לְמִסְפַּ֖ר בְּנֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵֽל:
9Because the Lord's portion is His people Jacob, the lot of His inheritance.		טכִּ֛י חֵ֥לֶק יְהֹוָ֖ה עַמּ֑וֹ יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב חֶ֥בֶל נַֽחֲלָתֽוֹ:

however, from what you said in your post #276:

For Torah. There are often no basic answers for such a question. If there was we Jews would study it once and be done with it for the rest of our lives. Again, that is the difference between Torah and religion. Religion proports to give you some basic answers and have you done with it. Torath Mosheh doesn't do such a thing. We spend years presenting ourselves with questions, working through them, answering them, then going back and challenging our questions and answers we think/thought we had. That is on everything, including something that seems small.

I don't know if I could get a straight answer from you because it just sounds like your culture, your worship, or whatever it is, is so overwhelming and almost obsessive. Also, it almost seems as if I'm sensing a bit of a condescending feeling towards others who are not TMJ Jews and who are ignorant and are a bit beneath you to all the knowledge and the status that the TMJs have as God's people. Therefore, I don't know if asking about Deuteronomy 32:8-9 is too much of an encompassing question for you to answer or not.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Plus, could you please elaborate a little bit more in regard to how some humans are already getting there individually in one level or another?

If you remember the videos I posted about people who are either a) helping people, b) leading people in the right direction, and/or b) living well within the envionment and not destroying. Those are are the people who are getting there individually. Some of them may be keeping the 7 mitzvoth partially or some as a whole.

There are also Jews who are doing a lot to convince wayward Jews to return to the Torah. Kind of like the rabbi in this video.

You have to watch them all the way through.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I don't know... but it almost sounds as if your... savior, Hashem, cares more about Jews than he does for the rest of humankind.

Caring of course is a human perception. There are two realities that we see from the Jewish side.

1. All of humanity has value, and all humans have national and personal missions. (The mission of the Jewish people is Torah, the mission of the non-Jewish nations is the 7 mitzvoth and whatever cultural mission they choose.)
2. Given that Avraham, his household, until the Torah was given were not that different than the non-Jewish nations. The only difference was that Avraham was seeking to make his whole life dependent on Hashem in all areas and angles.
3. Any non-Jew can choose live like Avraham or they can take on the mitzvoth of the Jewish nation as a Jew. YET, it is not a requirement for anyone to be Jewish.

Thus, the fact that non-Jewish humanity exists no matter what mitzvoth they keep or not can be interpreted as carrying enough to allow them the freedom to do or not do. Using the god concept, a non-caring creator would just immediately destroy anyone who doesn't do what it wants.

A person, can view this as a preference for Jews - but that preference is only when we keep the Torah. Further, a non-Jew who keeps the 7 mitzvoth are prefered also.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Also, some of your answer concerning the Jews sound very Jewish-centric as if the Jews have suffered more than any other human group in the world.

Now that is a strange thing to think. I haven't spoken that much about Jewish suffering at all in any of the threads we have interacted on. I have constantly stated that the world is a good place, is survivable, and that both of these are for the benefit for all of humanity. No where I have ever claimed that Jews have suffered more than anyone else, especially since it is silly for people to compare suffering with other people. I.e. bragging about who got it worse is just silly. The Torah based Jewish perspective is to find joy in all things that happen in life, even the challenging ones.

The Torah is of course Jewish centric, because Hasham gave it to the Jewish people to instruct Jewish national and personal life so that we can excel at what we are supposed to do so that we would experience the benefits of life and not suffer.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I don't know if I could get a straight answer from you because it just sounds like your culture, your worship, or whatever it is, is so overwhelming and almost obsessive. Also, it almost seems as if I'm sensing a bit of a condescending feeling towards others who are not TMJ Jews and who are ignorant and are a bit beneath you to all the knowledge and the status that the TMJs have as God's people. Therefore, I don't know if asking about Deuteronomy 32:8-9 is too much of an encompassing question for you to answer or not.

Just think of this way. I have spent a lot of time "answering" your questions as best as possible. Not to convince you but simply to provide an answer. I have made it clear that you don't have to like the answer and the reality is that you may not understand the answers because of linquistic and culture differences than what you know and what Jews have collectively known for thousands of years. It is no different than someone asking a question in a Calculus class. You don't have to accept the answer, you can also find a different way to resolve the problem that drives the question, and the professor is not there to convince you that the math is what is. Further, in order to even do Calculus one has to have the baseline of various mathematical disciplines and only people who have studied them can do Calculus. The same is true for linquistics and espeically linquestics of an ancient culture.

In terms of Torath Mosheh dedication to Hashem. Of course we would be. We have survived, progressed, and found ENJOYMENT in life no matter what challenges present themselves because of Hashem so it is "logical" for us to be dedicated to what has provided us with so much. I can understand how that can be strange to someone from a different culture, and that is okay.

In terms of being condensending, I find that to be a strange thing to think given how supportive I am to non-Jewish society and the good found it. Also, the fact that I have done a lot of defense of the "fact" that good is in the world is from non-Jewish cultures around the world. I have been blessed to personally see the good found in the world, in places like Ethiopia, Japan, Italy, Mexico, America, etc. that is why I take exception to the claim of the world being filled with doom and gloom. If that is viewed as being condescending then I will have to be guilty as charged.

 

[dybmh]

If you remember the videos I posted about people who are either a) helping people, b) leading people in the right direction, and/or b) living well within the envionment and not destroying. Those are are the people who are getting there individually. Some of them may be keeping the 7 mitzvoth partially or some as a whole.

There are also Jews who are doing a lot to convince wayward Jews to return to the Torah. Kind of like the rabbi in this video.

You have to watch them all the way through.

And here's what he says, when cronfronted with a person who is suffering and has left the path:

"There is a certain problem right now, every physical problem, a hint of illness, or a problem, or a misfortune, or suffering, it is resolved simply. All these are signals fom the All-mighty to awaken his son or daughter that became distant from him. He wishes to bring them close to him. What is this subject "return" ( repentence )? To return to Daddy."



So, this idea of Hashem "caring", of Hashem as a parent, and of us as Hashem's children is not silly. It's useful. It's important. He says Hashem "wishes to bring them close". These ideas are used for healing the Jewish people. Not only that, but these are the ideas which are brought in Torah. Not just a one liner that needs to be considered metaphor. This is not about Hashem's face, or feet, or finger. This is an idea, a theme, that is woven through the entire Tanach. Denying it, or calling it silly ( not that you did ), is taking away one of the most important tools in the Torah.

Portraying Hashem as distant and lacking emotion is not Torah and is harmful. And this is basically what I was saying in post#117 long before this video was posted.

I can appreciate that it's dangerous/hurtful to attempt to humanize God, and that has lead many down a wrong path. But it's equally dangerous/hurtful to reinterpret the Torah reducing God into a Greek "intelligence".

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, this idea of Hashem "caring", of Hashem as a parent, and of us as Hashem's children is not silly.

And if you look at what Rabbi Amnon Yitzhhaq says when asked about the details about what those statements mean in other videos about what those statements mean, he states the same thing the Rav Saadya Gaon, Rav Haa Gaon, Rav Yeudah HaLewi, Rambam, Rav Avraham, etc. stated.

Besides, I didn't use the word "silly" that is your wording not mine. Also, I explained what numerous Rabbonim state about what such a statement mean by such statements.

 

[dybmh]

And if you look at what Rabbi Amnon Yitzhhaq says when asked about the details about what those statements mean in other videos about what those statements mean, he states the same thing the Rav Saadya Gaon, Rav Haa Gaon, Rav Yeudah HaLewi, Rambam, Rav Avraham, etc. stated.

Where in this video does he say that Hashem doesn't care and that we are not Hashem's children?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Where in this video does he say that Hashem doesn't care and that we are not Hashem's children?

Those are your words, and not mine. i.e. your statement "Hashem doesn't care and that we are not Hashem's children"

This is really similar to what has been stated translations.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Because when the site change happened some of the information I posted was lost. So, here is information to replace what was lost.

 

[dybmh]

Those are your words, and not mine. i.e. your statement "Hashem doesn't care and that we are not Hashem's children"

This is really similar to what has been stated translations.

View attachment 73288

View attachment 73289

What does any of this have to do with whether or not it is useful and important to retain the concept of Hashem caring for the Jewish people as sons and daughters?

This is what the Rabbi said to bring the questioner back to a relationship with Hashem. I didn't say anything about translating the law, nor translating Torah.

 

[dybmh]

That ^^ is a pretty strong rebuttal of the extreme conclusion that God is not effected by anything a person does.






And according to this, Rambam would have changed things based on what he learned from Jewish Mysticism.

 

[dybmh]

What does the Rebbe say about this?

"Now let us try to understand how HaShem fulfills this mitzvah. Like a person lending another some money, HaShem “lends” each and every neshamah the special strength and ability to fulfill His will.​

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As with a loan, the neshamah gets its strength “for free.” But HaShem expects that, in return, our neshamah will pay back the loan by using this strength to fulfill His mitzvos.​

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HaShem is very generous and grants each neshamah many powers, whether or not it deserves them. The passuk says, “If you will lend money to My people” — HaShem loves us and calls us “My people”; that in itself makes us worthy of this loan.​

Hashem lends soul powers, but cannot experience those powers? And of course, Hashem loves us.

Moshe Rabbeinu considered himself smaller and less important than others. That’s why there is a little alef in the word Vayikra. Rashi tells us that HaShem ’s calling Moshe was a sign of special care. HaShem loves humble people. Because Moshe was so humble, HaShem called to him and showed him special attention.​

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Hashem loves...

In addition Moshe told them that there is no question that Hashem loves the Jewish people and wants to abide amongst them. However, sometimes our behavior can make Him, G‑d forbid, feel reluctant to be with us.​

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Hashem loves...

Fortunately, Hashem loves us and He converted Bilaam’s evil thoughts of curse into blessing (Devarim 23:6). Consequently, according to both abovementioned interpretations of the words “u’bagoyim lo yitchashav” that Bilaam was forced to say in praise of the Jewish people, Hashem gave us a glimpse of what they think of us and how we can avoid falling into their net.​

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Hashem loves...

Hashem loves the Jewish people like a father loves an only son and even more. Human nature is to permanently expel a stranger who commits an iniquity but to ultimately re-admit a son who was expelled for the similar iniquity.​

Thus, the pasuk is saying, [For perpetrating such abominations you will be vomited out of the land. However,] “the land will not vomit you out for having made it impure, [the same] as it vomited out the nation that was before you. They were ejected from the land forever, but, while you too will be ejected, it will not be the same as then. Since you are His child and He loves you, eventually He will bring you back to the land.”​

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Hashem loves...

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QUESTION: The tochachah contains frightening admonitions and curses that could befall the Jewish people, G‑d forbid, for not observing Torah and mitzvot. What secret power is there in the tochachah to subdue and offset these potentially terrible events?​

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ANSWER: The “tochachah” consists of 676 words. To offset this, the Tetragrammaton (Hashem’s holy four letter name — י-ה-ו-ה which denotes rachamim — mercy — has the numerical value of 26, and it is mentioned 26 times in the tochachah. 26x26=676. With His mercifulness, G‑d converts for His beloved children — Klal Yisrael — bitter curses into sweet blessings.​

The Jewish people are Hashem's beloved children...

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Just as a father who loves his son enjoys bringing him presents and has much personal pleasure when he observes his son enjoying them, Hashem loves the Jewish people and derives much pleasure from rewarding them.​

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Therefore, Rabbi Yaakov says, as much as Hashem is happy to give his children the blissful time they have in Olam Haba, He derives much greater pleasure than that from the repentance and good deeds they perform in this world.​

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Hashem loves and experiences pleasure...

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All of this is from "Sichos in English" a website dedicated to propogating the Rebbe's message and writings. So, regardless of the few sentences in Mishneh Torah which some may try to use to push Hashem into an unfeeling force of nature, the Lubavitch Rebbe rejects this conclusion.

​

 

[dybmh]

This is also interesting, and confirms what I said, Chabad does not learn Guide for the Perplexed. Here the Rebbe is directing people to Mishneh Torah, instead of the Guide.

And this link below cautions the audience that they need to know about the greek influence in Guide for the Perplexed. Also the goal is stated to move beyond the rational approach.

https://www.chabad.org/multimedia/video_cdo/aid/5579901/jewish/Suprarationalism-in-the-Lubavitcher-Rebbes-Reading-of-Maimonides.htm

So, hopefully we don't need any more Chabad sources on this subject.

 

[David Davidovich]

If you remember the videos I posted about people who are either a) helping people, b) leading people in the right direction, and/or b) living well within the envionment and not destroying. Those are are the people who are getting there individually. Some of them may be keeping the 7 mitzvoth partially or some as a whole.

Well, to be honest with you, it's kind of hard to remember and to keep up with all the information that you provide because sometimes you provide a ton of information and more information than I ever wanted or would ever need to get a basic answer. So, no, I probably don't remember. Also, you have to keep in mind that I am not Jewish or a TMJ, therefore, I am not accustomed to studying and going over Jewish information to the extend in which you have described. Also, as far as people who are helping people and leading people in the right direction, do you mean Jews helping other Jews? Because I recall you saying that Jews don't evangelize to non Jews. Although, you did mention that some of them may be keeping the 7 mitzvoths partially or some as a whole.

There are also Jews who are doing a lot to convince wayward Jews to return to the Torah. Kind of like the rabbi in this video.

You have to watch them all the way through.

But here you are distinguishing that there are also Jews who are convincing wayward Jews to return to Torah.

 

[David Davidovich]

Caring of course is a human perception. There are two realities that we see from the Jewish side.

1. All of humanity has value, and all humans have national and personal missions. (The mission of the Jewish people is Torah, the mission of the non-Jewish nations is the 7 mitzvoth and whatever cultural mission they choose.)
2. Given that Avraham, his household, until the Torah was given were not that different than the non-Jewish nations. The only difference was that Avraham was seeking to make his whole life dependent on Hashem in all areas and angles.

That seems to imply that no other person on earth was seeking to make his whole life dependent on Hashem in all areas and angles.

3. Any non-Jew can choose live like Avraham or they can take on the mitzvoth of the Jewish nation as a Jew. YET, it is not a requirement for anyone to be Jewish.

Thus, the fact that non-Jewish humanity exists no matter what mitzvoth they keep or not can be interpreted as carrying enough to allow them the freedom to do or not do. Using the god concept, a non-caring creator would just immediately destroy anyone who doesn't do what it wants.

I'm guessing that you meant to say 'can be interpreted as caring enough. . .' However, what about the people who were destroyed who didn't do what it wanted such as the people in Noah's days and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them along with Lot's wife and Lot's daughter's fiancés? Because their fiancés only laughed and thought that the warning of the destruction of the cities was a joke. Also, if you refer me to a long Hebrew answer or video, then I'm sorry, but I don't care. It's a basic and straight forward question.

A person, can view this as a preference for Jews - but that preference is only when we keep the Torah. Further, a non-Jew who keeps the 7 mitzvoth are prefered also.

Alright.

 

[David Davidovich]

Now that is a strange thing to think. I haven't spoken that much about Jewish suffering at all in any of the threads we have interacted on. I have constantly stated that the world is a good place, is survivable, and that both of these are for the benefit for all of humanity. No where I have ever claimed that Jews have suffered more than anyone else, especially since it is silly for people to compare suffering with other people. I.e. bragging about who got it worse is just silly. The Torah based Jewish perspective is to find joy in all things that happen in life, even the challenging ones.

Well, actually you have. And I could even try to search how in various threads you have said something like, 'Well, look at how the Jews have suffered' in a way that it trumps all the other suffering that we were discussing. However, I will not take the time to do that tonight.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, actually you have. And I could even try to search how in various threads you have said something like, 'Well, look at how the Jews have suffered' in a way that it trumps all the other suffering that we were discussing. However, I will not take the time to do that tonight.

Search them, BUT, make sure to quote all of what I wrote and the context. If you were asking about something specific to Jews "surviving" difficult situations then it stands to reason that the answer may address what Jews went through and overcome. In any case await your search results.