For Torath Mosheh Jews Only: Who is Hashem?

[David Davidovich]

In that thread I spoke about 2 ideas. 1 was simple, and 1 was very complicated.

The simple idea is that God is creating like an author is writing a story. And God as the author can define each element however it chooses. In addition, God can write itself into the story at certain important places in the plot.

The complicated idea is, everything that has happened, is happening, will happen, didn't happen, isn't happening, won't happen, and could possibly happen are all concurrent from God's perspective. This is how I undertand reality. Reality is the set of all these events, including the "could be" events. The result of this is the creation of infintely many multiple worlds. I justify this idea from a few details in Gen 1, along with the definition of the word for world, "olam", and the concept that God is beyond time. I can also look at it without scripture all together and simply address it symbolically using math.

If I'm right about these two ideas, we are living in one of those worlds with its own set of events. We don't know which version it is, until the could-be events are resolved in our timeline. The episode with the Sodomites, according to the Torah did occur as described in our version, in our world. But there is a version where it didn't occur that way; there are infinitely many different versions. Trying to imagine all the ripple effects of these variations is dizzying.

Thanks.

 

[David Davidovich]

Ehav4Ever said:
Yeah, I don't personally see any evidence of what you described. If someone could show me something like that then I could reconsider.

In that thread I spoke about 2 ideas. 1 was simple, and 1 was very complicated.

The simple idea is that God is creating like an author is writing a story. And God as the author can define each element however it chooses. In addition, God can write itself into the story at certain important places in the plot.

The complicated idea is, everything that has happened, is happening, will happen, didn't happen, isn't happening, won't happen, and could possibly happen are all concurrent from God's perspective. This is how I undertand reality. Reality is the set of all these events, including the "could be" events. The result of this is the creation of infintely many multiple worlds. I justify this idea from a few details in Gen 1, along with the definition of the word for world, "olam", and the concept that God is beyond time. I can also look at it without scripture all together and simply address it symbolically using math.

If I'm right about these two ideas, we are living in one of those worlds with its own set of events. We don't know which version it is, until the could-be events are resolved in our timeline. The episode with the Sodomites, according to the Torah did occur as described in our version, in our world. But there is a version where it didn't occur that way; there are infinitely many different versions. Trying to imagine all the ripple effects of these variations is dizzying.

Okay, well, there you go, @Ehav4Ever.

 

[dybmh]

Is that from Rabbinical writings?

I feel like I read it somewhere... let's see...

Yes, Rashi has it and refers back to Midrash Rabbah

 

[David Davidovich]

I vote yes to both. I have never met a Jewish person who believed that the Torah came from Sinai and was dictated to Moses who didn't beleive Hashem was a deity, a divine power. I also would be very surprised if they didn't worship Hashem, but, it's possible that a Jewish person who has the religious beliefs that the Torah came from Sinai and was dictated to Moses doesn't include worship in their daily, weekly, monthly, periodic, or yearly routine. And just to cover all the bases, if a Jewish person of any sort worships anything other than Hashem, that would be a heretic. But they are still Jewish.

Okay, thanks. And I'm waiting to see what @Ehav4Ever has to say about this because I'm still getting used to the idea that Jews... or at least TMJs don't go by the concept of 'god,' even though other types of Jews refer to Hashem as G-d.

 

[David Davidovich]

I feel like I read it somewhere... let's see...

Yes, Rashi has it and refers back to Midrash Rabbah

View attachment 74054

So, what about Zoar? Genesis 19:19-30

19 Your[a] servant has found favor in your[b] eyes, and you[c] have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can’t flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I’ll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn’t it? Then my life will be spared.”

21 He said to him, “Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it.” (That is why the town was called Zoar.[d])

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the Lord. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

Lot and His Daughters​

30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave.

Therefore, it doesn't look like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was perceived as the end of the entire world.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Okay, thanks. And I'm waiting to see what @Ehav4Ever has to say about this because I'm still getting used to the idea that Jews... or at least TMJs don't go by the concept of 'god,' even though other types of Jews refer to Hashem as G-d.

Think of it this way, since I beleived I explained all this in prior threads where you asked me about it.

Take the follwoing steps and let me know what answers you get.

1. Ask someone who knows Hebrew what is the shoresh of the following words (אל - אלוה - אלהים).
2. Ask them what the the terms (בורא העולם) and (הקב"ה) mean.
3. Then ask them what is the etymology of the English word "god" is. Ask them why some Jews don't write "god" or "lord" with an "o" but instead write things like "G-d" or "L-rd".
4. Then ask them if the words (אל - אלוה - אלהים) and "god" have the same etymological history.
5. Ask them why Hebrew was called Lashon HaKodesh and what does the term mean.
6. Ask the same person if in English it is common to call rabbis, judges, powerful people, powerful elements of the universe, be called gods. Then ask them if rabbis, judges, powerful people, etc. can be called (אל - אלוה - אלהים).
7. Ask the same person why the Christian claim of Jesus being a god or one with Hashem doesn't fit within the context of the Hebrew Tanakh.
8. Then ask them why the concept of a "pantheon of gods" like tree gods, land gods, sea gods, etc. doesn't fit in the context of Hashem.
9. Lastly, ask them if jesus or any other concept of a god found in the English speaking world can be called (בורא העולם) and (הקב"ה).

If you can get someone to answer all of these, at some point they are more than likely going to be saying the same things I expressed to you in all the different threads where you have asked me questions.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Okay, well, there you go, @Ehav4Ever.

Well, what goes? Where did he state what you wrote? Also, what source does he bring that states what you wrote?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

You didn't provide in English what the Hebrew was describing, but only in Hebrew.

I gave you the sources of where you can find it in the translations you use. As I mentioned before, I don't use translations I read the Hebrew.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Two more questions:
Is Hashem considered a deity?
Do TMJs worship Hashem?

In Hebrew we use terms for Hashem that range from, (בורא העולם) - Creator of "Reality/Creation/World/Universe/etc." or (הקב"ה) - the Set Apart One Blessed is He, etc. and host of other terms. If you are asking if Hashem can be lined up with a pantheon of deities like the Greeks, Egyptians, Mesoptemians, etc. had the answer would be no. Everyone who holds by Torath Mosheh agree that those pantheon of deities don't exist and there is only Hashem alone who created all things.

IN ENGLISH, if someone has the above understanding already then they could use terms of deity and yes can worship something that created EVERYTHING, including the ability for something be created. YET AGAIN, that is only after it has been esablished that a) there is nothing else out there that created everything and b) there is none deities with/along side/next to/before/after Hashem.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And just to cover all the bases, if a Jewish person of any sort worships anything other than Hashem, that would be a heretic.

Good point. Can you explain to David why this is the case? Also, can you explain to him what the definition of a heretic is?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I kind of thought that is what @dybmh was describing in the Science and Religion Debate thread about how time for Hashem is eternal. But that was weeks ago, and I may not be remembering it correctly.

Again, because words like "time" and "eternal" are not specific and can mean any number of things, the questions you have to ask are:

1. What is the Hashem definition of time that Hashem "experiences" personally?
   • I.e. does Hashem have days broken up into hours? Also, how does Hashem time relate to people?
   • For example, EXACTLY and w/o metaphor - how long is a 1,000 human years in relation to Hashem?
   • Who/what set Hashem's time in place, again assuming that Hashem experience time the way humans experience time?
2. What does time being eternal mean, in detail?
   • I.e. How does a human being calculate eternity and does it have a start and finish?

For example,

 

[dybmh]

Think of it this way, since I beleived I explained all this in prior threads where you asked me about it.

Take the follwoing steps and let me know what answers you get.

1. Ask someone who knows Hebrew what is the shoresh of the following words (אל - אלוה - אלהים).
2. Ask them what the the terms (בורא העולם) and (הקב"ה) mean.
3. Then ask them what is the etymology of the English word "god" is. Ask them why some Jews don't write "god" or "lord" with an "o" but instead write things like "G-d" or "L-rd".
4. Then ask them if the words (אל - אלוה - אלהים) and "god" have the same etymological history.
5. Ask them why Hebrew was called Lashon HaKodesh and what does the term mean.
6. Ask the same person if in English it is common to call rabbis, judges, powerful people, powerful elements of the universe, be called gods. Then ask them if rabbis, judges, powerful people, etc. can be called (אל - אלוה - אלהים).
7. Ask the same person why the Christian claim of Jesus being a god or one with Hashem doesn't fit within the context of the Hebrew Tanakh.
8. Then ask them why the concept of a "pantheon of gods" like tree gods, land gods, sea gods, etc. doesn't fit in the context of Hashem.
9. Lastly, ask them if jesus or any other concept of a god found in the English speaking world can be called (בורא העולם) and (הקב"ה).

If you can get someone to answer all of these, at some point they are more than likely going to be saying the same things I expressed to you in all the different threads where you have asked me questions.

There were 2 questions:

1) The question was, is Hashem a deity.

2) And the one I'm curious about, do you worship Hashem? Do Baladi Jews object to the idea of worship as defined to mean: verbal suplication, veneration, adoration, and praise of Hashem? The reason I ask, is, doesn't Rambam write something about the highest praise of Hashem is silence?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

There were 2 questions:

1) The question was, is Hashem a deity.

2) And the one I'm curious about, do you worship Hashem? Do Baladi Jews object to the idea of worship as defined to mean: verbal suplication, veneration, adoration, and praise of Hashem? The reason I ask, is, doesn't Rambam write something about the highest praise of Hashem is silence?

Actually, there is more than one question. I say that because I was involved in all the threads that led to the two questions presented in this thread. For example, knowing how David defines the word "diety" is important. That is why I stated the questions that I did that David would have to ask because, based on the previous threads, I think his questions are are a bit deeper than that. That being said, I anwered in a way where I know where David may misunderstand an answer that doesn't provide details. Rosends commented on this in the previous thread HERE.

Concerning, your second question. No, the Rambam doesn't write "the highest praise of Hashem is silence." I know what you are referencing but that is not an accurate translation of what he was discussing.

Baladi Jews, just like all Yemenite Jews, pray the same core tefiloth that all Jewish communities do based on all Sanhedrin rullings/Talmudic rulings. Also, Baladi Jews do not reject the statements verbal suplication, veneration, adoration, and praise of Hashem AS LONG AS we understand what we are talking about. For example, you and I as Jews understand what we mean by that but someone who is not Jewish with a cursary reading may assume it to mean something else. Thus, I am very descriptive to people when I know that someone doesn't fully understand the Jewish concept(s) plural on what that means.

If you are referencing the article written by Rabbi Rafael Salber, if you look at his sources in Hebrew you will see that that is not a statement made by the Rambam but instead is quoted at the end of the paper as a quote of Tehillim 65:2. Also, a few places Rabbi Rafael Salber quotes translations derived from inaccurate Hebrew texts of the Mishnah Torah.

The following article about Tehillim 65:2 I think better explains the concept you are asking about.

What does God Say of Silence? Psalm 65:2 | Sefaria

What does God say of Silence? Psalm 65:2 speaks volumes.

www.sefaria.org.il

 

[Ehav4Ever]

2) And the one I'm curious about, do you worship Hashem?

Sorry, I missed your question here. The following from the Mishnah Torah is a good description of what I do.

and of course as the Shulchan Arukh states.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Do Baladi Jews object to the idea of worship as defined to mean: verbal suplication, veneration, adoration, and praise of Hashem?

The following may help with this question.

Siddur Baladi

תכלאל

www.yadmeir.co.il

 

[dybmh]

So, what about Zoar? Genesis 19:19-30

Therefore, it doesn't look like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was perceived as the end of the entire world.

Agreed. I hadn't noticed that. Thank you. Lot's daughters were certainly depraved. The justification they brought is invalid.

 

[David Davidovich]

Think of it this way, since I beleived I explained all this in prior threads where you asked me about it.

Take the follwoing steps and let me know what answers you get.

1. Ask someone who knows Hebrew what is the shoresh of the following words (אל - אלוה - אלהים).
2. Ask them what the the terms (בורא העולם) and (הקב"ה) mean.
3. Then ask them what is the etymology of the English word "god" is. Ask them why some Jews don't write "god" or "lord" with an "o" but instead write things like "G-d" or "L-rd".
4. Then ask them if the words (אל - אלוה - אלהים) and "god" have the same etymological history.
5. Ask them why Hebrew was called Lashon HaKodesh and what does the term mean.
6. Ask the same person if in English it is common to call rabbis, judges, powerful people, powerful elements of the universe, be called gods. Then ask them if rabbis, judges, powerful people, etc. can be called (אל - אלוה - אלהים).
7. Ask the same person why the Christian claim of Jesus being a god or one with Hashem doesn't fit within the context of the Hebrew Tanakh.
8. Then ask them why the concept of a "pantheon of gods" like tree gods, land gods, sea gods, etc. doesn't fit in the context of Hashem.
9. Lastly, ask them if jesus or any other concept of a god found in the English speaking world can be called (בורא העולם) and (הקב"ה).

If you can get someone to answer all of these, at some point they are more than likely going to be saying the same things I expressed to you in all the different threads where you have asked me questions.

You must have been in a hurry and missed the point. What you are replied to is an additional point to the real point. Therefore, the real questions that I was asking can be seen in this link from post #480.

 

[David Davidovich]

Well, what goes? Where did he state what you wrote? Also, what source does he bring that states what you wrote?

I don't know. You'd have to ask @dybmh. However, I can copy and paste what he said:

In that thread I spoke about 2 ideas. 1 was simple, and 1 was very complicated.

The simple idea is that God is creating like an author is writing a story. And God as the author can define each element however it chooses. In addition, God can write itself into the story at certain important places in the plot.

The complicated idea is, everything that has happened, is happening, will happen, didn't happen, isn't happening, won't happen, and could possibly happen are all concurrent from God's perspective. This is how I undertand reality. Reality is the set of all these events, including the "could be" events. The result of this is the creation of infintely many multiple worlds. I justify this idea from a few details in Gen 1, along with the definition of the word for world, "olam", and the concept that God is beyond time. I can also look at it without scripture all together and simply address it symbolically using math.

If I'm right about these two ideas, we are living in one of those worlds with its own set of events. We don't know which version it is, until the could-be events are resolved in our timeline. The episode with the Sodomites, according to the Torah did occur as described in our version, in our world. But there is a version where it didn't occur that way; there are infinitely many different versions. Trying to imagine all the ripple effects of these variations is dizzying.

 

[David Davidovich]

I gave you the sources of where you can find it in the translations you use. As I mentioned before, I don't use translations I read the Hebrew.

Oh, I see. Well, many of those verses I am already familiar with in English. And in the English that I am already familiar with, it doesn't say anything about an eternal soul. Therefore, I don't know why you didn't translate what those verses are expressing in English as close as possible from what is being said in Hebrew as you usually do in either your videos or on the forum.

 

[David Davidovich]

In Hebrew we use terms for Hashem that range from, (בורא העולם) - Creator of "Reality/Creation/World/Universe/etc." or (הקב"ה) - the Set Apart One Blessed is He, etc. and host of other terms. If you are asking if Hashem can be lined up with a pantheon of deities like the Greeks, Egyptians, Mesoptemians, etc. had the answer would be no. Everyone who holds by Torath Mosheh agree that those pantheon of deities don't exist and there is only Hashem alone who created all things.

I didn't say anything about the Greeks, Egyptians, Mesopotamians, etc. So, no, that is not what I was asking.

IN ENGLISH, if someone has the above understanding already then they could use terms of deity and yes can worship something that created EVERYTHING, including the ability for something be created. YET AGAIN, that is only after it has been esablished that a) there is nothing else out there that created everything and b) there is none deities with/along side/next to/before/after Hashem.

Okay, thanks. I was just wondering.