For Torath Mosheh Jews Only: Who is Hashem?

[Ehav4Ever]

Uh, gee, @Ehav4Ever, I've seen my share of Guardians of the Galaxy movies.

I can't speak to the movie you mentioned, but the below video describes what I wrote above.

 

[dybmh]

Well, that's still kind of strange where there would be 1000s and 1000s of people who were extremely corrupt and if only 10 people in those same cities kept the 7 mitzvoth, then those same cities would not have been destroyed. Hmmm.

It's not that strange, just optimistic. 10 good people can change the world!

 

[dybmh]

Just because Lot's wife looked back at the city and the son-in-laws thought that the cities were going to be destroyed was a joke? Well, I guess I'm not really seeing how these individuals were as bad as the rest of the people in Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them... Least we forget about the children and the babies of those cities. But I guess that's just me.

Excellent thought provoking points. No, it's not just you.

I think making sense of this and other episodes where innocents are killed by God requires zooming out. These stories are not in a vaccuum. Their value comes from how they effect the people who learn about it. Perhaps the strongest motivating power on earth is a threat to a child, specifically one's own child. Knowing that setting up an extremely improper unjust community is a direct threat to my children from an all-powerful deity is a stronger motivation than any perceived harm that I may do to myself. The same is true for a spouse.

 

[dybmh]

Lot's sleazy daughters who took advantage of their father's drunken state.

They thought all people in the entire world had been obliterated. They were trying to repopulate the world. Also, they were clearly influenced by the people among whom they lived.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

They thought all people in the entire world had been obliterated. They were trying to repopulate the world. Also, they were clearly influenced by the people among whom they lived.

Using what you stated earlier about zooming out. One can look at modern situations of people going to extremes due to traumatic situations.

 

[David Davidovich]

That is because you used the word "bad." The reality is that if even a person keeping the mitzvoth who associates themselves closely with dangerous people can go down with them if they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even most legal systems have people who are charged for associating closely with criminals and such. Even a person who doesn't do the crime but provided assistance to the person doing the crime can face charges.

In fact, just look at the FTX and crypto currency situation. Good people put their life sayings in with some really shady people and lost their life savings. Madoff was the same, etc. We see these things everyday. That is why this event is mentioned in the Torah warn against the risks of assoiating with shady people.

With all of this we know that there is an Olam Haba. How one passes here doesn't always mean something bad for the Olam Haba, if they have kept the mtizvoth that were required of them.

So, what about Lot's wife?

 

[David Davidovich]

If you look in my comment, I noted that your request not clear to me. That is why I provided you with the Hebrew and in English on the side the sources of what the Hebrew is describing. Also, the slides I provided the following lists were on the left side.

View attachment 73998

View attachment 73999

You didn't provide in English what the Hebrew was describing, but only in Hebrew.

 

[David Davidovich]

They thought all people in the entire world had been obliterated. They were trying to repopulate the world. Also, they were clearly influenced by the people among whom they lived.

Oh, that's interesting. You're the first person that I ever seen who has said that. Thanks.

 

[David Davidovich]

They thought all people in the entire world had been obliterated. They were trying to repopulate the world. Also, they were clearly influenced by the people among whom they lived.

Also, a question that comes to my mind is: So, did the people in Sodom and Gomorrah not know that there were other lands and people beyond their cities? And that's probably where the criticism comes from in regard to that incident.

 

[David Davidovich]

Two more questions:
Is Hashem considered a deity?
Do TMJs worship Hashem?

 

[David Davidovich]

Yeah, I don't personally see any evidence of what you described. If someone could show me something like that then I could reconsider.

I kind of thought that is what @dybmh was describing in the Science and Religion Debate thread about how time for Hashem is eternal. But that was weeks ago, and I may not be remembering it correctly.

 

[David Davidovich]

I can't speak to the movie you mentioned, but the below video describes what I wrote above.

Yeah, it would make more sense if there was some sort of life somewhere else in this vast universe. But I don't know about living planets.

 

[David Davidovich]

It's not that strange, just optimistic. 10 good people can change the world!

So, do you think they could have changed Sodom and Gomorrah? But wait... Why am I even asking you that question. Of course, you're going to say yes.

 

[David Davidovich]

Excellent thought provoking points. No, it's not just you.

I think making sense of this and other episodes where innocents are killed by God requires zooming out. These stories are not in a vaccuum. Their value comes from how they effect the people who learn about it. Perhaps the strongest motivating power on earth is a threat to a child, specifically one's own child. Knowing that setting up an extremely improper unjust community is a direct threat to my children from an all-powerful deity is a stronger motivation than any perceived harm that I may do to myself. The same is true for a spouse.

So, what are you saying? Are you saying that the threat of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah including everyone's children and spouses should have been serious enough and enough motivation for Lot's sons-in-law to take the threat more seriously? Although, of course, we know that according to this story, the rest of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah had no idea that their cities were going to be destroyed.

 

[David Davidovich]

Two more questions:
Is Hashem considered a deity?
Do TMJs worship Hashem?

I had overlooked a few of the posts.

 

[dybmh]

Also, a question that comes to my mind is: So, did the people in Sodom and Gomorrah not know that there were other lands and people beyond their cities? And that's probably where the criticism comes from in regard to that incident.

That's a good question. I would expect that they did know about other lands and other people, but, the crisis was so immense and terrifying that to Lot's daughters they thought the whole world had been destroyed.

 

[dybmh]

I kind of thought that is what @dybmh was describing in the Science and Religion Debate thread about how time for Hashem is eternal. But that was weeks ago, and I may not be remembering it correctly.

In that thread I spoke about 2 ideas. 1 was simple, and 1 was very complicated.

The simple idea is that God is creating like an author is writing a story. And God as the author can define each element however it chooses. In addition, God can write itself into the story at certain important places in the plot.

The complicated idea is, everything that has happened, is happening, will happen, didn't happen, isn't happening, won't happen, and could possibly happen are all concurrent from God's perspective. This is how I undertand reality. Reality is the set of all these events, including the "could be" events. The result of this is the creation of infintely many multiple worlds. I justify this idea from a few details in Gen 1, along with the definition of the word for world, "olam", and the concept that God is beyond time. I can also look at it without scripture all together and simply address it symbolically using math.

If I'm right about these two ideas, we are living in one of those worlds with its own set of events. We don't know which version it is, until the could-be events are resolved in our timeline. The episode with the Sodomites, according to the Torah did occur as described in our version, in our world. But there is a version where it didn't occur that way; there are infinitely many different versions. Trying to imagine all the ripple effects of these variations is dizzying.

 

[dybmh]

So, what are you saying? Are you saying that the threat of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah including everyone's children and spouses should have been serious enough and enough motivation for Lot's sons-in-law to take the threat more seriously? Although, of course, we know that according to this story, the rest of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah had no idea that their cities were going to be destroyed.

Well, we don't really know if they had been warned. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. I'm saying that if there were innocent children killed, even that could be for the good if it prevents many more from making the same mistakes.

I think of it like a war. In war, a general may need to sacrifice a group of soldiers in order to ensure that a convoy can make it to the front line. The soldiers are innocent, and they had to die in order for the overall mission to be a success. If their sacrifice saved many more lives, then the sacrifice was good.

If the story of the destruction of Sodom, including the children, prevents many more from setting up a society like the one in the story, then the death of the children is justified. That's what I'm saying. And just to be honest, it could be I'm the only person on the planet who is seeing it this way. But even so, I still think it's a good way to understand these episodes where innocents are killed.

The alternative that I've heard is that the children weren't actually innocent. Even the babies would grow up to be despicable people with or without living in Sodom or being raised by the Sodomites. I don't like that answer. I think it leads to blaming the victims in current tragedies. Instead, I think it's better to accept that sometimes innocents suffer and are killed, but that it is for a higher purpose that is not apparent to us.

 

[David Davidovich]

That's a good question. I would expect that they did know about other lands and other people, but, the crisis was so immense and terrifying that to Lot's daughters they thought the whole world had been destroyed.

Is that from Rabbinical writings?

 

[dybmh]

Two more questions:
Is Hashem considered a deity?
Do TMJs worship Hashem?

I vote yes to both. I have never met a Jewish person who believed that the Torah came from Sinai and was dictated to Moses who didn't beleive Hashem was a deity, a divine power. I also would be very surprised if they didn't worship Hashem, but, it's possible that a Jewish person who has the religious beliefs that the Torah came from Sinai and was dictated to Moses doesn't include worship in their daily, weekly, monthly, periodic, or yearly routine. And just to cover all the bases, if a Jewish person of any sort worships anything other than Hashem, that would be a heretic. But they are still Jewish.