For Torath Mosheh Jews Only: Who is Hashem?

[Ehav4Ever]

Maybe some other time, but not tonight because it's getting late for me.

Not a problem. I can understand about things getting late.

 

[dybmh]

I don't think you understanding what I am talking about. I am not talking about any group being an outlier or not. Chabad has an an approach in a number of areas that are specific to Chabad and the type of Hasidim they are. The Syrian Jews from Halab have a different approach in a number of areas specific to the Syrian Jewish community Yemenites who Baladi or Shami also have areas specific to them. Same with the Jews of the Maghreb, and so on. Even with these differences all of these groups are following Torath Mosheh and all accept the halakhic rulings that came from the Sanhedrins of the past.

Even if they disagree with some details that speculation or views about things that are beyond human reasoning would not make them outliers.

Here's what you asked:

Please explain what you mean by that. Also, the information you presented is very Chabad centered. Do you have any evidence that this is consistant in how Sephardim, Mizrahim, Teimanim, Habashim, etc. describe things? I.e. do you have similar sources from non-Chabad communities that mirror what you have presented on the Chabad English site?

And after I pointed out the size and global scope of the Chabad movement, you are saying it no longer matters whether or not what they say is "consistant in how Sephardim, Mizrahim, Teimanim, Habashim, etc. describe things". That's a reversal of what you were asking. My response, the facts behind it, rendered the question irrelevent.

And you're saying I didn't understand what you asked? No, I understood. And, if you want to discuss Sephardi Jews. Their claim to fame is yichudim, unifications. You can't have unifications without attributes and without names. So they also reject what Rambam wrote about this.

 

[dybmh]

Nope. My explaination did not include anything about the Torah occuring on earth. Besides, the beginning part of it did not occur on earth and of course we know there are Midrashim that describe it already existing before the earth. What I am talking about is not earth by with Hashem outside of time before there was a universe, while there is a universe, and in the future. i.e. I am asking David about his view outside of what humanity perceives.

You were telling the OP what my defintion was, but you did not know my definition. And the stories referenced are stories occuring on the earth written on the earth.

 

[dybmh]

Just to clarify your questions in the OP a bit more. Can you let me know, for my own clarification, which of the two options below best capture the concepts of emotions and feelings you were asking about in your OP? If the answer is neither, you can let me know that also. Thanks.

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Why didn't you bring the parts of the article that match what @David Davidovich was talking about? It's as if you are intentionally misrepresenting. It's apparent that you searched for the word "emotion" from the orange box around that word in the screenshot. But you skipped the parts early in the article which match what the OP was saying... Fondness / lack of fondness.

Of course if you skip the beginning part where the sephirot are described as "emotions", that is misrepresenting the article.

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The next three Sefirot are the Emotions....​

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Chessed (loving-kindness) is the attribute which diffuses benevolence to all without limit...​

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Where Chessed is boundless, Gevurah is the attribute of restraint. It has the power and ability to limit and contract....this Sefirah within him. He restrained his emotions magnificently at the Akeida (the binding of Isaac).​

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Both Chessed and Gevurah operate successfully through a mediating faculty, the Sefirah of Tiferet. Tiferet blends Chessed and Gevurah with harmonious and beautiful results. It can be compared to a garment dyed with many colors and blended in such a way that gives rise to beauty and decoration. Within man, it is equated with the attribute of “compassion” (Rachamim).​

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[Ehav4Ever]

Yeah, I think I might remember this now. But I would say that this god would not be affected by it.

So, here is an example of what I mean.

One of the examples that Rabbi Avraham ben-Rambam wrote about in his commentary of the Torah is that when Hashem gave the Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh to Mosheh that this name/title/declaration is describing.

1. Hashem is involved in all time at the same time. (From a human perspective)
2. Meaning that before Hashem created the universe we exist in, he was/is/will be already present in our past, present, and future.
a. kind of like saying, 2,000 years ago the presence of Hashem that we humans can interact with was already in this moment that I am writing in as well as already in the future of me writing and when I stop writing.
b. Hashem created all the potential possibilties that can exist in the universe and all the potential possibilies of human decisions.
c. Thus, if a Jew who grew up keeping the Torah at age 20 decides to leave the Torah and then age 40 returns to the Torah and then at age 120 passes away - the presence of Hashem that we humans can interact with was already in all of those moments, as well as the moments in universal history that led up to that point, and all of the events that are the result of it that will take place in the future.

All of this because Hashem:
1. Created the ability for there to be time. (Past-Present-Future)
2. Hashem created the concept of time. (The ability for humans to exist linearly within time. Meaning, physically, matter has a start point-present-point-ending point.)
3. The neshama (what you would call in English soul) which is not physical was created with the possibility to go beyond that construct of time.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Good questions. However, he still did it... or had done it anyway. Therefore, how do you answer that?

See my post above #425.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Yes, and I hope that @Ehav4Ever addresses that point.

Sure, look at my post #425. The question you have to ask is, "what is a natural occurance?" For example, if one posits that what we call nature was established w/o any knowledge of what would happen in the future due to decisions and the available possibilities then that is quite far from what Rav Sa'adya Gaon, Rambam, etc. the others I mentioned were describing.

If you are saying that the Source is just that, the Source of reality, and as I pointed out in post #425 as well as our previous discussion that the Source is not affected by linear time, like we humans and the rest matter in the universe is, and that said Source of reality exists beyond/and above past, present, and future (therefore existing in all three at the same time) then one comes with a different perspective.

At this point one can say, there is no such thing as natural occurances. Reality was built to operate for the good of humanity. By like token, there are things that were programmed into the system from the start, are a part of the program now, will be in the future to function like the Source saw fit with the Source having a presence in all three at the same time. Thus, nothing happens that Hashem didn't already know about, doesn't know about, and won't know about.

When my ancestors and the ancestors of all Jews stood at Mount Sinai to the receive the Torah - they were all overwhelmed by seeing, through nevuah, a very small portion of that reality. Mosheh ben-Amram was the only one able to stand to it without being overwhelmed. At the same time he was able to see that was so small in the full scope of Hashem, and that as a metaphor, he was looking through one unclear lense at this reality. Other nevi'im were looking for 15 or more (metaphorical) w/o being able to realize the distance they were at.

Yet, these are all examples I am giving. You can even call them types of metaphors because the reality of Hashem is beyond me as a human. Like I said before, if I live to lets say 100 years and the universe is 20 billion years old just the universe alone is overwhelming. Now if you get to the Source of what created it how much more would I be overwhelmed.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Good questions. However, he still did it... or had done it anyway. Therefore, how do you answer that?

Here is an example. The following events.

Prior to the existance of our universe Hashem knew details of what these above Jewish groups would do in the future, because the Hashem was already in the future. After Hashem created the universe, Hashem knew this same would exist. Hashem created the universe in a way where said Jews could a) return to the Torah and not do this event and b) the group could choose to reject Hashem and Torah go through the event. Hashem, in our past-present-future already knew/know/will know what led to it, what was going on when it was happening, and what the result would be in the future. Further to that from the beginning, during the event, and in the future Hashem created the possibility for any Jew who would do such a thing to a) receive the good of the mitzvoth of the Torah from rejecting such an event/mindset or b) receive the ability to receive the bad that comes from such a decision.

This is the reason that is expressed in the writings of the rabbis I listed that Hashem didn't change, doesn't change, and won't change. i.e. Hashem is already the reality in all aspects of linear view of time and reality. Humans are not like that. We change constantly from the time we are born until we pass away. Further, we don't exist in our futures until we get there and our past, once it happens, is not at our access when it has passed.

The rabbis I referenced were aware of how limiting human langugae is and one of the Hebrew words for defining something is also used to describe a fence or enclosure. I.e. something that limits a physical space.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

They just stated what they stated about Job as Jews who knew what was in the Hebrew text better than Christians did. Also, the Moses writing it thing is something I heard from Christian sources. But I just looked that up online and it says that he didn't.

Therefore, now what?

So, there are a few views of Iyov found in Torath Mosheh literature. One found in the Talmud is that Mosheh wrote Iyov. There is also a view that Iyov was not a person who existed and the text is essential a Midrash. There are a few other views that place Iyov at different points of history.

That being said, how one views the source of the text may drive what they get out of it. In the end, within the text there a number of lessons that various Torath Mosheh commentators get from it.
1. In the view that this is a midrash, there is a question of why people who keep the mitzvoth of Hashem can experience challenges/suffering.
2. There is a view of the role of the satan and how humanity has the ability to overcome the effects of challenges that are placed in our way, and how the tzadiq (a person who wins at the mitzvoth more than they fail at them) has the ability to experience bad in a way that turns towards the good.
3. That there are things that are at play, on a universal scale that as humans we don't have the capacity to fully understand yet those things are a part of what influence us to be more human and at the end of the day repair humanity, if we want it to.
a. Kind of like how when a disaster happens and people pull together in ways they may not normally and show their real humanity.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But anyway, from what I understand from Torath Mosheh Jews is that they don't believe that Hashem has any emotions or feelings. Therefore, I ask them the questions: 1) Who is Hashem? 2) What are his motives? 3) What does humankind mean to him? 4) Why did he even create humans? 5) Why did he even create anything? 6) What's in it for him? 7) Why does the Hebrew text say that he's patience and forgiving and that he cares about humankind when apparently, he doesn't, since he doesn't have any emotions?

In connnection to these seven questions and some of the responses I have given to them, consider the following questions of mine.

 

[David Davidovich]

3. The neshama (what you would call in English soul) which is not physical was created with the possibility to go beyond that construct of time.

Could you show me Hebrew text or Rabbinic writings that say that? Because I have had experience with a religion that showed from what they call the Old Testament, that the Old Testament really was saying that the soul is not eternal, but that the soul is the living being itself (e.g. a human or animal). And that the concept of an eternal soul is, as you would say, an invention of Christian (or they would say 'Christendom') religion.

 

[David Davidovich]

Here is an example. The following events.
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Prior to the existance of our universe Hashem knew details of what these above Jewish groups would do in the future, because the Hashem was already in the future. After Hashem created the universe, Hashem knew this same would exist. Hashem created the universe in a way where said Jews could a) return to the Torah and not do this event and b) the group could choose to reject Hashem and Torah go through the event. Hashem, in our past-present-future already knew/know/will know. . .

So, did you mean to say, "will know"? Because "will know" implies that Hashem didn't know something and eventually came to know it. Also, it implies time.

what led to it, what was going on when it was happening, and what the result would be in the future. Further to that from the beginning, during the event, and in the future Hashem created the possibility for any Jew who would do such a thing to a) receive the good of the mitzvoth of the Torah from rejecting such an event/mindset or b) receive the ability to receive the bad that comes from such a decision.

This is the reason that is expressed in the writings of the rabbis I listed that Hashem didn't change, doesn't change, and won't change. i.e. Hashem is already the reality in all aspects of linear view of time and reality. Humans are not like that. We change constantly from the time we are born until we pass away. Further, we don't exist in our futures until we get there and our past, once it happens, is not at our access when it has passed.

The rabbis I referenced were aware of how limiting human langugae is and one of the Hebrew words for defining something is also used to describe a fence or enclosure. I.e. something that limits a physical space.

So, from what you said, it sounds like you're saying that Hashem burned the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot's daughters' fiancés and the cities about them to a crisp and turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt because he knew he was already going to do, therefore, he had to do it anyway? Same way with the children and the plagues of Egypt, and all the other fun things that Hashem did in the Hebrew text? (I almost forgot about swallowing up all those people with earthquakes and the ground splitting wide open.) Therefore, in other words, Hashem never was reacting to anything, but he was just doing what he knew he had foreseen himself doing (or perhaps what he already had done in some reality), and therefore, he was just making sure he was being consistent with himself? Did I get that right?

 

[David Davidovich]

Sure, look at my post #425. The question you have to ask is, "what is a natural occurance?" For example, if one posits that what we call nature was established w/o any knowledge of what would happen in the future due to decisions and the available possibilities then that is quite far from what Rav Sa'adya Gaon, Rambam, etc. the others I mentioned were describing.

If you are saying that the Source is just that, the Source of reality, and as I pointed out in post #425 as well as our previous discussion that the Source is not affected by linear time, like we humans and the rest matter in the universe is, and that said Source of reality exists beyond/and above past, present, and future (therefore existing in all three at the same time) then one comes with a different perspective.

This may seem like a silly question, but is there such a thing as a 'real' time existence or reality for Hashem or even for humans? Or is reality like those science fiction movies or tv shows where reality is still occurring somewhere or some place on a different time phase and in Hashem's mind? Or is there a 'real' time occurrence for human beings? Or is it still always occurring somewhere, some place? Also, I thought about the end reveal of the tv show, "To Tell Truth." Click on the link below where it will take you to the 1:46 mark. Plus, I couldn't find the new version which showed the reveal.

 

[David Davidovich]

In connnection to these seven questions and some of the responses I have given to them, consider the following questions of mine.

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But that only sounds like practicality more than anything else, and still doesn't answer any of my questions at all.

Edited: I meant to use the word: practicality

 

[David Davidovich]

In connnection to these seven questions and some of the responses I have given to them, consider the following questions of mine.

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View attachment 73617

Also, back to what I was saying earlier, similar to what you've been saying for the longest about how the Hebrew text was 'supposed' to have been written in a way for humans to only think of Hashem as having emotions and not to know how to describe him correctly, therefore, once again, in my limited 21st century way of expressing myself, Hashem just seems like this super-duper advanced intelligence beyond my comprehension who has the ability to do just about anything and everything, and is actually doing just about anything and everything, left and right. But perhaps it's a show-off... I don't know. Because that's all that I'm getting from you and from your train of TMJ thinking and doctrine.

 

[David Davidovich]

In connnection to these seven questions and some of the responses I have given to them, consider the following questions of mine.

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View attachment 73615

View attachment 73617

Also, if there were perhaps more inhabited planets throughout the universe, what you are saying would make a bit more sense. However, because it's only us, this one little planet among all this... and which seems to be continuously growing and expanding arbitrarily, it really doesn't make a lot of sense unless a person commits themselves to believe that it does.

 

[David Davidovich]

I edited post #434.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, did you mean to say, "will know"? Because "will know" implies that Hashem didn't know something and eventually came to know it. Also, it implies time.

Will know, means time from our perspective. Meaning, Hashem exists in past, present, and future all at the same time and knows all three at the same time - from a perspective that we can understand. The only way for something to exist in universal past, present, and future without being affected by them or subject to them is for it to be outside of time. But again, time is something we experience we have no other way to talk about things that are outside of our experience.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Also, if there were perhaps more inhabited planets throughout the universe, what you are saying would make a bit more sense. However, because it's only us, this one little planet among all this... and which seems to be continuously growing and expanding arbitrarily, it really doesn't make a lot of sense unless a person commits themselves to believe that it does.

Again, that is a human perspective. Hashem doesn't operate like humans. Further, there is nothing that proves that other planets are not inhabited. The challenge we have is "What defines life that inhabits something?" Further, how do you know that planets themselves are not lifeforms? Again, if you study astro-biology there are very good reasons that a universe may appear unpopulated to a species that has gone no further than its own moon.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Also, back to what I was saying earlier, similar to what you've been saying for the longest about how the Hebrew text was 'supposed' to have been written in a way for humans to only think of Hashem as having emotions and not to know how to describe him correctly, therefore, once again, in my limited 21st century way of expressing myself, Hashem just seems like this super-duper advanced intelligence beyond my comprehension who has the ability to do just about anything and everything, and is actually doing just about anything and everything, left and right. But perhaps it's a show-off... I don't know. Because that's all that I'm getting from you and from your train of TMJ thinking and doctrine.

That is fine. That is a conclusion you are free to come to. I am not here to convince you to have a different mindset.