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For Torath Mosheh Jews Only: Who is Hashem?
- Thread starter David Davidovich
- Start date
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
אלהים יהי רקיע וגו'. כתיב (תהילים קי״ט:פ״ט) לעולם ה' דברך נצב בשמים, ופירש הבעל שם טוב זצוקללה"ה כי דברך שאמרת יהי רקיע בתוך המים וגו', תיבות ואותיות אלו, הן נצבות ועומדות לעולם בתוך רקיע השמים ומלובשות בתוך כל הרקיעים לעולם להחיותם, כדכתיב (ישעיהו מ׳:ח׳) ודבר אלהינו יקום לעולם, ודבריו חיים וקיימים לעד וכו' כי אילו היו האותיות מסתלקות כרגע ח"ו וחוזרות למקורן, היה כל השמים כאין ואפם ממש
No, I have brought what the Chabad movement says.
That's a different issue. The point here is, you asked the following question:
The answer is, look in Torah and Tehillim ( psalms ). I gave you an example.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
"part of" means you acknowledge there is more to the definition than physiology?
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Yup, they're not God, but God has them. And, these same attributes are reflected in the human, per the Chabad article you posted from the Israeli Chabad website.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Please explain what you mean by that. Also, the information you presented is very Chabad centered. Do you have any evidence that this is consistant in how Sephardim, Mizrahim, Teimanim, Habashim, etc. describe things? I.e. do you have similar sources from non-Chabad communities that mirror what you have presented on the Chabad English site?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
You do know what the words "attributes ascribed to him" means, right?
You were born in America, lived here for 30 years? Went to college here?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
No, that's a different issue. The issue is: Does Chabad reject the idea that Hashem does not have ANY emotions that are similar to human emotions?
Answer, that is rejected.
Now, once we can agree that Chabad rejects this, then if you want to discuss these other groups, then you'll need to bring something from each of them that declares *explcitly* that Hashem is lacking ALL emotions that are similar to humans.
Let's say you cn do that. Then we can compare the size of these individual groups, their global distribution, and compare it to Chabad to accurately determine whether or not the Chabad approach is an outlier.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Can you show me where it states that "God has them," as you were describing earlier? Because a little bit further when the English term emotions is used it is only describing humans. Like below.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@David Davidovich ,
the simple answer is, the Torah occured on earth. Hashem is including itself in the story, and that includes reacting to the events as they occur in the story. Hashem is interacting with the earth in this timeline.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Based on what you posted, you can't even equate human the meaning of the English word emotions to Hashem in a non-mashal way at all. It appears that is why the following is mentioned.
Further, the meaning that David gave, shown below, would not be applicable either and thus seems that his meaning of the English word emotions is not the same as yours.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
That is not what I am asking him about.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
I don't think you understanding what I am talking about. I am not talking about any group being an outlier or not. Chabad has an an approach in a number of areas that are specific to Chabad and the type of Hasidim they are. The Syrian Jews from Halab have a different approach in a number of areas specific to the Syrian Jewish community Yemenites who Baladi or Shami also have areas specific to them. Same with the Jews of the Maghreb, and so on. Even with these differences all of these groups are following Torath Mosheh and all accept the halakhic rulings that came from the Sanhedrins of the past.
Even if they disagree with some details that speculation or views about things that are beyond human reasoning would not make them outliers.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Has "them" is the sephirot, that's right at the beginning of the page.
Nefesh elokit is a literal part of Hashem, that was quoted from Tanya.
We have a nefesh elokit ( divine soul ). This is a literal part of Hashem. The emotions come from the nefesh elokit. That's really all a person needs to confirm that Chabad posits a real, literal, similarity to what humans have emotionally and what Hashem has. But what we have is limited compared to Hashem.
That's Chabad chassidus.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Please, I am not "equating" anything to Hashem. I am speaking about Hashem's capability.
Regarding @David Davidovich's definition, it's rather close to the one I brought. Fondness or lack of fondness is an expression of a relationship.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
While living in numerous parts of America I had the ability to learn that even when people speak the same language people can often say something, write something, and mean something completly different from each other. For example, when many English speakers that I have met use the word god, they often conjure up the following images or ones like them.
Of course, for most Jews and Muslims the word god does not mean anything at all like the above pictures.
So, having lived in a number of different countries during the 48 years of my life I know it is useful to have people define what they mean before assuming they mean something they don't mean. For example, in the word emotions have been given a number of definitions; a few of them conflict with each other.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Nope. My explaination did not include anything about the Torah occuring on earth. Besides, the beginning part of it did not occur on earth and of course we know there are Midrashim that describe it already existing before the earth. What I am talking about is not earth by with Hashem outside of time before there was a universe, while there is a universe, and in the future. i.e. I am asking David about his view outside of what humanity perceives.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Just to clarify your questions in the OP a bit more. Can you let me know, for my own clarification, which of the two options below best capture the concepts of emotions and feelings you were asking about in your OP? If the answer is neither, you can let me know that also. Thanks.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
I haven't lost track of it. Now that definitions of various things are being provided I will be able to respond to your question with better clarity. Answering the questions I presented to you about time, and how you see the things I presented will help me in explaining what various sources say about Sodom and Amorah. Thanks.Plus, below is what I said in my post #321, just to keep this in front of the conversation.