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For Torath Mosheh Jews Only: Who is Hashem?

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
But that only sounds like practicality more than anything else, and still doesn't answer any of my questions at all.

Edited: I meant to use the word: practicality
Maybe, I am not the person to answer your questions. Maybe, that is the best you are going to get out of a "written" forum. Maybe, your goal should not be about getting answers from a particular person but instead traveling the world and understanding how the world works. ;)
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
This may seem like a silly question, but is there such a thing as a 'real' time existence or reality for Hashem or even for humans? Or is reality like those science fiction movies or tv shows where reality is still occurring somewhere or some place on a different time phase and in Hashem's mind? Or is there a 'real' time occurrence for human beings? Or is it still always occurring somewhere, some place? :confused: Also, I thought about the end reveal of the tv show, "To Tell Truth." Click on the link below where it will take you to the 1:46 mark. Plus, I couldn't find the new version which showed the reveal.
To answer your questions:
1. Question: is there such a thing as a 'real' time existence or reality for humans? Answer: Yes, this discussion is happening in it. There is a start and eventually there will be a finish.
2. Question: is there such a thing as a 'real' time existence or reality for Hashem? Answer: In so far as Hashem created time (conceptually and realistically) yes. Time is something Hashem "created" just as much as he created the ability for gravity, as we experience it, to exist.

Thus, our experiences are real.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
So, from what you said, it sounds like you're saying that Hashem burned the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot's daughters' fiancés and the cities about them to a crisp and turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt because he knew he was already going to do, therefore, he had to do it anyway? :anguished:
No, what I am saying is the the society they created opened the door to the possibility of their society being completely destroyed. Hashem created the possibiliy that their society could exist and not be destroyed, i.e. by way of the 7 mitzvoth, and Hashem also created the possibility that the society they created could be destroyed, if they built a destructive corrupt society from top to the bottom. The conversation between Hashem and Avraham was on this parciular of what would be necessary for the event to be avoided. i.e. at least 10 people who were keeping the 7 mitzvoth and weren't corrupt. Because that was not found, the tipped the balence towards the other direction. Meaning that if 9 people keeping the 7 mitzvoth were there they would need to get out of town and distance themselves. Also, the consideration based on Lot's behavior is that even someone keeping the 7 mitzvoth in Sodom and Amorah were easily corrupted by the local influence.

No different than how the various nations that fought against ISIS not long ago. At some point a decision was made that the society was corrupt enough that, even with a particular cost, the society could not continue based its crimes and corruption. Of coruse after the fact, they found that all elements of the ISIS soceity was extremely corrupt and also working to corrupt their own children to the point where the children had been used to seeing all kinds of attrocities. Further, there were some people who claimed to not be with ISIS who suffered when the attacks against ISIS took place because they were in a place surrounded by corrupt people. Unlike Hashem, the armies that fought agains ISIS has now way of knowing exactly what the future would be of such a society and the children raised in it.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Same way with the children and the plagues of Egypt, and all the other fun things that Hashem did in the Hebrew text? (I almost forgot about swallowing up all those people with earthquakes and the ground splitting wide open.) Therefore, in other words, Hashem never was reacting to anything, but he was just doing what he knew he had foreseen himself doing (or perhaps what he already had done in some reality), and therefore, he was just making sure he was being consistent with himself? Did I get that right? :emojconfused:
I would not use the words "he had foreseen himself doing" and the other statement "he was just making sure he was being consistent with himself." I would write it like so:

"There is a discussion about that in a particular text, where it is described that Hashem knows what is possible and what is the correct circumstance to have something happen - for the sake of reward and punishment or you can justice. The particular discussion posits that Hashem knows what paths a person will choose, and there are some judgements that deal with the future. I.e. let's say that a particular family line will create a weapon that will destroy 2/3 of the earth, and there is nothing justifiable about the family in their 10 generation and beyond. So, until that 10th generation they have a value and their chooses are permitable (even the bad ones) until they get to that 10th generation with their bad choices. This of course variaes from person to person, family to family, city to city, and nation to nation. The perspective is that Hashem, as the Source of reality knows when and how such a sitaution would need to be resolved so that the good for those who are keeping the Torah (Israel/Jews) and the 7 mitzvoth (non-Jewish nations) can be maintained or established."
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Also, back to what I was saying earlier, similar to what you've been saying for the longest about how the Hebrew text was 'supposed' to have been written in a way for humans to only think of Hashem as having emotions and not to know how to describe him correctly,
No, that is not what I wrote.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Could you show me Hebrew text or Rabbinic writings that say that? Because I have had experience with a religion that showed from what they call the Old Testament, that the Old Testament really was saying that the soul is not eternal, but that the soul is the living being itself (e.g. a human or animal). And that the concept of an eternal soul is, as you would say, an invention of Christian (or they would say 'Christendom') religion.
If you mean that you want the actual "Hebrew texts" or a list of Hebrew texts where it is described, then here is a list that may meet both of what I I think you might be asking for. Again, I can't voach for how of the below would look like in an English translation and especially a Christian one. It is also not a full list, mainly what I have time to provide at the moment.

1679808591394.png


1679808720908.png
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Also, if there were perhaps more inhabited planets throughout the universe, what you are saying would make a bit more sense. However, because it's only us, this one little planet among all this... and which seems to be continuously growing and expanding arbitrarily, it really doesn't make a lot of sense unless a person commits themselves to believe that it does.
The following may interest you.

 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
Again, that is a human perspective. Hashem doesn't operate like humans. Further, there is nothing that proves that other planets are not inhabited.
Um, James... Webb...Space...Telescope.
The challenge we have is "What defines life that inhabits something?" Further, how do you know that planets themselves are not lifeforms?
Uh, gee, @Ehav4Ever, I've seen my share of Guardians of the Galaxy movies. :facepalm:
Again, if you study astro-biology there are very good reasons that a universe may appear unpopulated to a species that has gone no further than its own moon. ;)
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
If you mean that you want the actual "Hebrew texts" or a list of Hebrew texts where it is described, then here is a list that may meet both of what I I think you might be asking for. Again, I can't voach for how of the below would look like in an English translation and especially a Christian one. It is also not a full list, mainly what I have time to provide at the moment.

View attachment 73790

View attachment 73791
Thanks. That's as clear as mud. :rolleyes:
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
The following may interest you.

I'll take a look at it.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
To answer your questions:
1. Question: is there such a thing as a 'real' time existence or reality for humans? Answer: Yes, this discussion is happening in it. There is a start and eventually there will be a finish.
2. Question: is there such a thing as a 'real' time existence or reality for Hashem? Answer: In so far as Hashem created time (conceptually and realistically) yes. Time is something Hashem "created" just as much as he created the ability for gravity, as we experience it, to exist.

Thus, our experiences are real.
I see. So, it sounds like you don't believe that all this may be happening somewhere, sometime elsewhere in a different time phase. Or could happen again somewhere or sometime elsewhere in a different time phase. Good.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
No, what I am saying is the the society they created opened the door to the possibility of their society being completely destroyed. Hashem created the possibiliy that their society could exist and not be destroyed, i.e. by way of the 7 mitzvoth, and Hashem also created the possibility that the society they created could be destroyed, if they built a destructive corrupt society from top to the bottom. The conversation between Hashem and Avraham was on this parciular of what would be necessary for the event to be avoided. i.e. at least 10 people who were keeping the 7 mitzvoth and weren't corrupt. Because that was not found, the tipped the balence towards the other direction. Meaning that if 9 people keeping the 7 mitzvoth were there they would need to get out of town and distance themselves.
Well, that's still kind of strange where there would be 1000s and 1000s of people who were extremely corrupt and if only 10 people in those same cities kept the 7 mitzvoth, then those same cities would not have been destroyed. Hmmm. :confused:
Also, the consideration based on Lot's behavior is that even someone keeping the 7 mitzvoth in Sodom and Amorah were easily corrupted by the local influence.
Just because Lot's wife looked back at the city and the son-in-laws thought that the cities were going to be destroyed was a joke? Well, I guess I'm not really seeing how these individuals were as bad as the rest of the people in Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them... Least we forget about the children and the babies of those cities. But I guess that's just me.
No different than how the various nations that fought against ISIS not long ago. At some point a decision was made that the society was corrupt enough that, even with a particular cost, the society could not continue based its crimes and corruption. Of coruse after the fact, they found that all elements of the ISIS soceity was extremely corrupt and also working to corrupt their own children to the point where the children had been used to seeing all kinds of attrocities. Further, there were some people who claimed to not be with ISIS who suffered when the attacks against ISIS took place because they were in a place surrounded by corrupt people. Unlike Hashem, the armies that fought agains ISIS has now way of knowing exactly what the future would be of such a society and the children raised in it.
Oh, I see. So, I guess Hashem deemed everyone corrupt enough to die because they wouldn't leave the city. However, since this is not a debate, I'm not going to mention Lot's sleazy daughters who took advantage of their father's drunken state. :( Or perhaps Hashem didn't see that one coming. ;)
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
I would not use the words "he had foreseen himself doing" and the other statement "he was just making sure he was being consistent with himself." I would write it like so:

"There is a discussion about that in a particular text, where it is described that Hashem knows what is possible and what is the correct circumstance to have something happen - for the sake of reward and punishment or you can justice. The particular discussion posits that Hashem knows what paths a person will choose, and there are some judgements that deal with the future. I.e. let's say that a particular family line will create a weapon that will destroy 2/3 of the earth, and there is nothing justifiable about the family in their 10 generation and beyond. So, until that 10th generation they have a value and their chooses are permitable (even the bad ones) until they get to that 10th generation with their bad choices. This of course variaes from person to person, family to family, city to city, and nation to nation. The perspective is that Hashem, as the Source of reality knows when and how such a sitaution would need to be resolved so that the good for those who are keeping the Torah (Israel/Jews) and the 7 mitzvoth (non-Jewish nations) can be maintained or established."
TMJs seem very philosophical. ;)
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Um, James... Webb...Space...Telescope.

Uh, gee, @Ehav4Ever, I've seen my share of Guardians of the Galaxy movies. :facepalm:
No, the James... Webb...Space...Telescope has not proven that there are no inhabited planets in the universe. The JWST doesn't have the ability to determine if any form of life is present on planets outside of our solar system or beyond. Besides, the question that is the challenge with Astro-biology is the question of "what is life?"

1680166521670.png



 
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Just because Lot's wife looked back at the city and the son-in-laws thought that the cities were going to be destroyed was a joke? Well, I guess I'm not really seeing how these individuals were as bad as the rest of the people in Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them... Least we forget about the children and the babies of those cities. But I guess that's just me.
That is because you used the word "bad." The reality is that if even a person keeping the mitzvoth who associates themselves closely with dangerous people can go down with them if they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even most legal systems have people who are charged for associating closely with criminals and such. Even a person who doesn't do the crime but provided assistance to the person doing the crime can face charges.

In fact, just look at the FTX and crypto currency situation. Good people put their life sayings in with some really shady people and lost their life savings. Madoff was the same, etc. We see these things everyday. That is why this event is mentioned in the Torah warn against the risks of assoiating with shady people.

With all of this we know that there is an Olam Haba. How one passes here doesn't always mean something bad for the Olam Haba, if they have kept the mtizvoth that were required of them.
 
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Oh, I see. So, I guess Hashem deemed everyone corrupt enough to die because they wouldn't leave the city. However, since this is not a debate, I'm not going to mention Lot's sleazy daughters who took advantage of their father's drunken state. :( Or perhaps Hashem didn't see that one coming. ;)
No. By them not leaving the city they put themselves in danger. No different than how there were people who were warned before hand to not associate with bad or sketchy situations, they ignore the warnings and do it anyway. Then when things fall apart it affects them also.


 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Thanks. That's as clear as mud. :rolleyes:
If you look in my comment, I noted that your request not clear to me. That is why I provided you with the Hebrew and in English on the side the sources of what the Hebrew is describing. Also, the slides I provided the following lists were on the left side.

1680166365911.png


1680166394988.png
 
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I see. So, it sounds like you don't believe that all this may be happening somewhere, sometime elsewhere in a different time phase. Or could happen again somewhere or sometime elsewhere in a different time phase. Good.
Yeah, I don't personally see any evidence of what you described. If someone could show me something like that then I could reconsider. ;)
 
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