For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[Brian2]

Your description above for Jesus would fit the concept of Demigod, because you consider him both human and a God as in the Trinity.

If the Divine Son of God becomes a man, He remains the Divine Son of God while being a man. iow He does not become someone else.
But for Jesus He was like His fellow humans and put away His divine status and powers while on earth. Any superhuman things He did were from God, just as Moses and Elijah etc etc were human but did miracles by the power of God.
If you want to call Moses, as described in the Bible, a demigod then you can call Jesus, as described in the Bible, a demigod.
But if Moses was not a demigod then neither was Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

Actually I do not believe in the concept of the Trinity and Jesus being the incarnate Son of God and the concept originated in the Hellenist/Roman belief in Demigod.

I believe the nature of the Manifestations of God relationship with God is spiritual savior King and not a physical Son of God as described as the concept of the Messiah in the Torah.

So you believe the Torah is not the Word of God.

 

[shunyadragon]

So you believe the Torah is not the Word of God.

First, you interpret what is the Word of God differently than I. I do not consider scripture to be literally the word of God. Yes, those that compiled the Pentateuch after 600 BCE believed it was a literal history of Creation and early history of the Hebrews, but that was within the context of the culture and time they lived. I consider it inspired by God, but written and compiled from the human perspective in the context of the time and culture without science.

Second, I share the dominant contemporary interpretation of the Torah in Judaism especially Reform Judaism, and in particular the Pentateuch as not a literal history. I share their belief in a the Unity and Oneness of God. The Torah is their book in their language.

Third, If you believe in the Torah is the literal Word of God than the contradiction in the Trinity in Christianity as to what is the Messiah is overwhelming.

 

[shunyadragon]

If the Divine Son of God becomes a man, He remains the Divine Son of God while being a man. iow He does not become someone else.
But for Jesus He was like His fellow humans and put away His divine status and powers while on earth. Any superhuman things He did were from God, just as Moses and Elijah etc etc were human but did miracles by the power of God.
If you want to call Moses, as described in the Bible, a demigod then you can call Jesus, as described in the Bible, a demigod.
But if Moses was not a demigod then neither was Jesus.

How you describe Jesus Christ fits within the Greek and Roman belief in a Demigod. My view is no, Jesus Christ and Moses are spiritual not physical Manifestations of God with special powers and knowledge from God. The Greek and Roman view is a physical human becomes or is physically a God.

 

[Trailblazer]

It’s the Bible’s interpretation of the the Bible because Scripture interprets Scripture.

No, Scripture does not interpret itself, people interpret Scripture.

Revelation says that Jesus Christ is Almighty God, Isaiah 9 also says this.

No, the Scripture does not SAY that Jesus is God. You interpret the Scripture to mean that.

Your interpretation of the Bible contradicts the Bible.

No, my interpretation of the Bible contradicts your interpretation of the Bible because our interpretations are different.

Jesus Christ emptied Himself and because of that you seem to be taking that as He isn’t God saying that in His humility He is just a man. Well, that to me is odd.
Now that He has destroyed the one who had kept us in slavery and fear of death, has risen from the dead, He has all the attribute of Almighty God, the same attributes He had before He humbled Himself and became a man. He has the name above all names, everyone will bow and worship the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Your Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible, you describe a different Jesus.

I describe a Jesus who has a twofold nature. As a Manifestation of God, Jesus has a twofold nature, one nature human, the other divine.
Speaking from His human nature Jesus humbled Himself before God, but speaking from His divine nature Jesus spoke as the voice of God.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

 

[shunyadragon]

God is not a human convention, or an intellectual invention, or an idea of what would be a universal god...

True, but there are many many conflicts and contradictions in 'What is God or Gods in the different religions that need to addressed.

I believe the concept of an universal God needs to considered, because of these contradictions that are unresolvable.

God is a real person, an individual Spirit person who created everything that exist. He has a personality and an identity. He is alive, He is real.

You blew it by defining and describing God anthropomorphically as person . This is likely a subjective human concenvention based on an ancient ribal wold view of only one of many cultural perspectives.

You don't know Him; You're maybe searching a way to know Him ... but you can't invent Him.

You do not know him either, You attempt to define God from a narrow ancient tribal perspective of only one culture out of over 300,000 years of human history.

The many diverse and conflicting beliefs in the different religions and their divisions go to great lengths to define God as their only God. You atempt to define and escribe God from the subjective human perspective if only one of many.

 

[ElishaElijah]

@Trailblazer Hermeneutics 101: Rules & Guidelines for Bible Interpretation

 

[Trailblazer]

Hermeneutics 101: Rules & Guidelines for Bible Interpretation

From that link:

9. Interpret the Scriptures keeping in mind that Christians are living under the New Covenant instituted by Jesus, not the Old Covenant that God gave to Israel.

I am a Baha'i so I interpret the Scriptures keeping in mind that Baha'is are living under a New Covenant instituted by Baha'u'llah.

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Note that Dan 12:13 says "at the end of the days.” This chapter is about what will happen at the time of the end of an age, when Christ returns.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Baha’is believe that the 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL

Unsealing the Book means we can now understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before by reading the Baha’i Writings, thus fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 12:4 that knowledge shall be increased. It also means that scientific and all other kinds of knowledge will be increased.

 

[Brian2]

How you describe Jesus Christ fits within the Greek and Roman belief in a Demigod. My view is no, Jesus Christ and Moses are spiritual not physical Manifestations of God with special powers and knowledge from God. The Greek and Roman view is a physical human becomes or is physically a God.

A human is more than just spirit. The physical is part of humanity and Jesus was a man. True?
This is the same with Moses etc.
So was Jesus, the totality of Jesus, a Manifestation of God or what?
Was it only the soul of Jesus which was a Manifestation of God?
And if so, does that mean that the soul of Jesus was Divine, as a Manifestation?

 

[Brian2]

First, you interpret what is the Word of God differently than I. I do not consider scripture to be literally the word of God. Yes, those that compiled the Pentateuch after 600 BCE believed it was a literal history of Creation and early history of the Hebrews, but that was within the context of the culture and time they lived. I consider it inspired by God, but written and compiled from the human perspective in the context of the time and culture without science.

Second, I share the dominant contemporary interpretation of the Torah in Judaism especially Reform Judaism, and in particular the Pentateuch as not a literal history. I share their belief in a the Unity and Oneness of God. The Torah is their book in their language.

Third, If you believe in the Torah is the literal Word of God than the contradiction in the Trinity in Christianity as to what is the Messiah is overwhelming.

Yes we have very different views of the inspiration of scripture etc.
But we both agree with many interpretations that Jews have and disagree with others.
There are passages which show the Messiah to be the Son of God and Divine however, even if Baha'is might see those passages as referring to Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

A human is more than just spirit. The physical is part of humanity and Jesus was a man. True?
This is the same with Moses etc.
So was Jesus, the totality of Jesus, a Manifestation of God or what?
Was it only the soul of Jesus which was a Manifestation of God?
And if so, does that mean that the soul of Jesus was Divine, as a Manifestation?

The totality of Jesus was a Manifestation of God since the soul and the body are connected together in this life.

As a Manifestation of God, Jesus had a twofold nature, one nature human, the other nature divine.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes we have very different views of the inspiration of scripture etc.

etc, etc., etc. No support for the Trinity in the Torah.

But we both agree with many interpretations that Jews have and disagree with others.

So . . .

There are passages which show the Messiah to be the Son of God and Divine however, even if Baha'is might see those passages as referring to Baha'u'llah.

Being Divine does not mean an incarnate Son of God. The Baha'i belief in God conforms with the Torah and Jewish view of God, Yes, some verses may refer to God, but none refer to the Trinity nor an incarnate Son of God.

Contemporary Judaism and the Baha'i Faith believe in the Harmony of Science and Religion, a non-literal interpretation of the Torah and the Pentateuch.

 

[Brian2]

The totality of Jesus was a Manifestation of God since the soul and the body are connected together in this life.

As a Manifestation of God, Jesus had a twofold nature, one nature human, the other nature divine.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

OK thanks

 

[Brian2]

etc, etc., etc. No support for the Trinity on the Torah.

I would say there is more than you think. It is not indicating that God is a Trinity but is suggesting that possibility.

So . . .

So Baha'i agreeing with part of Jewish interpretation means nothing.

Being Divine does not mean an incarnate Son of God. The Baha'i belief in God conforms with the Torah and Jewish view of God, Yes, some verses may refer to God, but none refer to the Trinity nor an incarnate Son of God.

Contemporary Judaism and the Baha'i Faith believe in the Harmony of Science and Religion, a non-literal interpretation of the Torah and the Pentateuch.

The Messiah being shown in Torah to be the Son of God and in other passages to be Divine certainly points to a Divine Messiah who is the Son of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK thanks

I have been meaning to get to your other two posts today but I have been swarmed by posts coming at me from all directions.
I will get to them as soon as I can. I usually leave the longer posts for last since they take longer to answer, last but not least.

 

[shunyadragon]

I would say there is more than you think. It is not indicating that God is a Trinity but is suggesting that possibility.



So Baha'i agreeing with part of Jewish interpretation means nothing.



The Messiah being shown in Torah to be the Son of God and in other passages to be Divine certainly points to a Divine Messiah who is the Son of God.

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

The Messianic prophecy genealogy in Judaism is through males only, and the genealogy in Matthew confirms this as all male genealogy ending in Joseph being the father of Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

The Messianic prophecy genealogy in Judaism is through males only, and the genealogy in Matthew confirms this as all male genealogy ending in Joseph being the father of Jesus.

Numbers 23:19 is about God not being like men who lie and change their mind. It does not mean or say that God cannot become a man.
The first Messianic prophecy in the Bible says:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
To the Jews the male was no doubt more important and genealogies went through the male and Jesus cannot be the Messiah unless He was related to David through the male line. God is not like that and nowhere in the Bible do we find that said.
It is made clear in the gospels that Jesus is the Son of God through a miraculous conception.
It is made clear that Joseph is not the biological father of Jesus.
Do you want to go by men's conventions or God's truth?

 

[shunyadragon]

Numbers 23:19 is about God not being like men who lie and change their mind. It does not mean or say that God cannot become a man.

The text is clear "God is not a man; neither the son of man . . ."

Your changing the wording of the text using "like"

Without your dishonest manipulation of the the text the meaning is clear. God cannot become a man.

For "God to become a man" would fit the definition of a Demigod.

The first Messianic prophecy in the Bible says:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

Not relevant

To the Jews the male was no doubt more important and genealogies went through the male and Jesus cannot be the Messiah unless He was related to David through the male line. God is not like that and nowhere in the Bible do we find that said.

It is completely clear in prophecy and beliefs that it is a male lineage only and the Book of Matthew that Joseph is literally the father of Jesus.

Manipulating the text does not change the facts,

It is made clear in the gospels that Jesus is the Son of God through a miraculous conception.
It is made clear that Joseph is not the biological father of Jesus.
Do you want to go by men's conventions or God's truth?

It is clear in the Gospels that the lineage of the Messiah is male lineage and Joseph was the father of Jesus.

Your manipulation of the text is not God's Truth.

 

[Brian2]

The text is clear "God is not a man; neither the son of man . . ."

Your changing the wording of the text using "like"

Without your dishonest manipulation of the the text the meaning is clear. God cannot become a man.

For "God to become a man" would fit the definition of a Demigod.

No, "that God is not a man that He should lie", does not mean that God cannot become a man and it certainly does not mean that God cannot send His Son to become a man.

Not relevant

It is completely clear in prophecy and beliefs that it is a male lineage only and the Book of Matthew that Joseph is literally the father of Jesus.

Manipulating the text does not change the facts,


It is clear in the Gospels that the lineage of the Messiah is male lineage and Joseph was the father of Jesus.

Your manipulation of the text is not God's Truth.

Matt 1: 16 ...........and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

No, the genealogy of Matthew does not say that Joseph was the biological father of Jesus.
But after the Genealogy it goes on to tell us about the virgin Mary conceiving a child through the Holy Spirit.
You want to say that the Genealogy says Joseph is the father of Jesus when it does not say that.
You want to deny the miraculous conception when the gospels plainly tell us that there was a miraculous conception.

 

[shunyadragon]

No, "that God is not a man that He should lie", does not mean that God cannot become a man and it certainly does not mean that God cannot send His Son to become a man.

Lt means what it says. The Torah and Jews have always believed that God does not become an incarnate Demigod.

Matt 1: 16 ...........and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

Yes JEsus was the son of Joseph.

No, the genealogy of Matthew does not say that Joseph was the biological father of Jesus.

Yes it does demonstrates the male lineage of Jesus as required in the Torah

But after the Genealogy it goes on to tell us about the virgin Mary conceiving a child through the Holy Spirit.
You want to say that the Genealogy says Joseph is the father of Jesus when it does not say that.
You want to deny the miraculous conception when the gospels plainly tell us that there was a miraculous conception.

Jesus was the son of Joseph.

The disagreements here reflect our disagreement of how we interpret the texts, especially the Pentateuch.

I consider the compilation of the Gospels to be heavily influence by Hellenist Roman beliefs, therefore the verses you cite and emphasize, I consider continuity with the Torah important in understanding. the concept of the Messiah in Judaism.

A literal interpretation of the Pentateuch and Gospels needs to face too many contradictions as in your efforts to change the wording to justify your agenda..