For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[shunyadragon]

Are you calling Jesus Christ a liar now?

I am presenting a sceptical perspective concerning whether Jesus Christ was God of not. No, religious beliefs regardless of their sincerity are subjective claims by those that experience them including what is claimed in the text of the Bible. If you believe in one or more of the manifestations of God saw and experienced God so be it, It remains a subjective belief.

Do you believe Muhammad lied?

”Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”“
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭46‬-‭51‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

This remains a subjective religious claim. By the way Jews do not remotely accept the above, and believe the claims of Christianity are totally false.

Do the Jews believe Jesus lied?

Did Moses see God?

 

[ElishaElijah]

I am presenting a sceptical perspective concerning whether Jesus Christ was God of not. No, religious beliefs regardless of their sincerity are subjective claims by those that experience them including what is claimed in the text of the Bible. If you believe in one or more of the manifestations of God saw and experienced God so be it, It remains a subjective belief.

Do you believe Muhammad lied?

This remains a subjective religious claim. By the way Jews do not remotely accept the above, and believe the claims of Christianity are totally false.

Do the Jews believe Jesus lied?

Did Moses see God?

See#355 and #357, you’re changing the subject

 

[Bthoth]

Well, it would be blasphemy for a mere man to
claim to that if you’ve seen him you’ve seen the Father or to say before Abraham was I AM.

To see you would be to see your ancestors. What's the problem? And yes, you and I both as lives within existence both lived before abraham.

If there was ever a gap in procreation from the first to now, you would not be here. That comprehension is how to explain that the lives alive back then will not perish, until the coming. As all of us, were lives of then and still here NOW, one generation at a time procreating and still alive!

 

[shunyadragon]

See#355 and #357, you’re changing the subject

Failed to respond.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Failed to respond.

#352, #358

 

[shunyadragon]

Do you and Shoghi Effendi say that Jesus and Moses and Abraham and Buddha and Baha'u'llah and etc have existed from eternity and were not ever created?

Actually all the manifestation of God such as Buddha, Jesus, and Baha'u'llah existed prior to Creation according to the Baha'i writings.

Manifestation of God (Baháʼí Faith) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thus, the Manifestations of God are special beings, having a unique relationship to God as they have been sent by God from the spiritual world as an instrument of divine revelation. They are understood to have existed in the spiritual world prior to their physical birth in this life.

 

[Bthoth]

Actually all the manifestation of God such as Buddha, Jesus, and Baha'u'llah existed prior to Creation according to the Baha'i writings.

Manifestation of God (Baháʼí Faith) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thus, the Manifestations of God are special beings, having a unique relationship to God as they have been sent by God from the spiritual world as an instrument of divine revelation. They are understood to have existed in the spiritual world prior to their physical birth in this life.

all of us exist and existed in the spiritual world!

it's the few that make the choice to do what is right that is unique.

 

[shunyadragon]

all of us exist and existed in the spiritual world!

it's the few that make the choice to do what is right that is unique.

I am optimistic it is more than a few.

 

[Bthoth]

I am optimistic it is more than a few.

That shares an optimism that is beautiful.

I also trust that mankind is capable.

Thank you

With Love.

 

[Trailblazer]

And yet Jesus is the image of the invisible God, so He must have all the attributes of God.

Certain attributes are unique to God. Only God is All-Powerful, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, so nobody except God can have those attributes.

Some of God's other attributes are Sovereign, Eternal, Holy, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, and Jesus also had these attributes.

Some of God's other attributes are Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient. The Manifestations of God also have these attributes. Humans also have the 'potential' to reflect these attributes of God and we reflect them to a greater of lesser degree, depending upon how spiritual we are.

John 14:9 Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
So Jesus is exactly like His Father. That means He has all the attributes,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, including being as good as God.

As noted above, Jesus does not have all the attributes of God, as certain attributes are unique to God.

"Nobody is good but God alone" is therefore a claim of deity, even if those who heard Him did not recognise that. It was written for our benefit.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

That was not a claim to be God. That was Jesus humbling Himself before God.
That was not Jesus saying that only God is good. Jesus was good and lots of people are also good.

YHWH said that nobody is comparable to Him, but then in the New Testament Jesus is comparable to Him. That means that Jesus must be YHWH. But it does not mean that the Father is the Son.

Your logic is faulty. Being 'comparable' to something does not mean being the same as something else.

comparable
Something that is comparable to something else is roughly similar, for example in amount or importance.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/comparable

A Chevy is comparable to a Ford because they are roughly similar since they are both cars.
Jesus is comparable to God because Jesus is roughly similar to God since they both share the same Holy Spirit and some of the same attributes.

The Father is not the Son. Jesus is the Son and God is the Father. Jesus cannot be the Son and the Father. That is an illogical Trinity belief.

So your eyes glaze over and you think "How can I believe that when I can't understand it?"
So you end up denying the Word of God because you cannot understand it.

I am not denying the Bible. I am only denying YOUR INTERPRETATION of the Bible.

Do you and Shoghi Effendi say that Jesus and Moses and Abraham and Buddha and Baha'u'llah and etc have existed from eternity and were not ever created?

I don't know about existing from eternity or not being created, but as Prophets, they existed in the spiritual world before they came into this world.

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

 

[Bthoth]

Certain attributes are unique to God. Only God is All-Powerful, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, so nobody except God can have those attributes.

a few of those, i will have to disagree with.

Unchanging? Quite the opposite 'forever changing-evolving'

Immaterial? IN all things of all things, at the same time omnipresent.

Some of God's other attributes are Sovereign, Eternal, Holy, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, and Jesus also had these attributes.

Some of God's other attributes are Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient. The Manifestations of God also have these attributes. Humans also have the 'potential' to reflect these attributes of God and we reflect them to a greater of lesser degree, depending upon how spiritual we are.

As noted above, Jesus does not have all the attributes of God, as certain attributes are unique to God.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

That was not a claim to be God. That was Jesus humbling Himself before God.
That was not Jesus saying that only God is good. Jesus was good and lots of people are also good.

Your logic is faulty. Being 'comparable' to something does not mean being the same as something else.

comparable
Something that is comparable to something else is roughly similar, for example in amount or importance.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/comparable

22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us,

A Chevy is comparable to a Ford because they are roughly similar since they are both cars.
Jesus is comparable to God because Jesus is roughly similar to God since they both share the same Holy Spirit and some of the same attributes.

22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us,

The Father is not the Son. Jesus is the Son and God is the Father. Jesus cannot be the Son and the Father. That is an illogical Trinity belief.

Mankind is of nature, within nature forever of nature.

of the trinity of mass/energy/time

I am not denying the Bible. I am only denying YOUR INTERPRETATION of the Bible.

I don't know about existing from eternity or not being created, but as Prophets, they existed in the spiritual world before they came into this world.

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

Interesting perspectives over all.

 

[Trailblazer]

a few of those, i will have to disagree with.

Unchanging? Quite the opposite 'forever changing-evolving'

Do you think that God is 'forever changing-evolving?
I believe that God's message for humanity is 'forever changing-evolving, which is why God sends a new Messenger in every age, but the entity called God is always the same God.

Immaterial? IN all things of all things, at the same time omnipresent.

I believe God is spirit, so God is not a material being.
I believe that the spirit of God is in all things, but the entity called God is independent of all things and transcends His creation.
I believe that God is omnipresent but I don't pretend to know how that plays out.

 

[Brian2]

Actually all the manifestation of God such as Buddha, Jesus, and Baha'u'llah existed prior to Creation according to the Baha'i writings.

Manifestation of God (Baháʼí Faith) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thus, the Manifestations of God are special beings, having a unique relationship to God as they have been sent by God from the spiritual world as an instrument of divine revelation. They are understood to have existed in the spiritual world prior to their physical birth in this life.

Do you know whether they are said to have existed forever, uncreated?
From the same article and just before your quote: The Manifestations of God are believed to possess capacities that do not exist in humans, and this difference is not a difference in degree but a difference in kind. The Manifestations of God are not seen to be simply great thinkers or philosophers who have a better understanding than others, but that, by their nature, they are inherently superior to the average human.
That would mean that Jesus would be seen as a demigod and not as the Son of God who became a human.

 

[shunyadragon]

Do you know whether they are said to have existed forever, uncreated?
From the same article and just before your quote: The Manifestations of God are believed to possess capacities that do not exist in humans, and this difference is not a difference in degree but a difference in kind. The Manifestations of God are not seen to be simply great thinkers or philosophers who have a better understanding than others, but that, by their nature, they are inherently superior to the average human.
That would mean that Jesus would be seen as a demigod and not a the Son of God who became a human.

You are misusing the term Demigod in derogatory way. It refers to Roman and Greek Gods.

 

[Brian2]

You are misusing the term Demigod in derogatory way. It refers to Roman and Greek Gods.

The quote I gave from the site you posted does suggest that the status of a Manifestation is that of a demigod.
..........by their nature, they are inherently superior to the average human.
Jesus, as a man, was still the Son of God, but was the same as other humans and had to rely on His Father to empower Him to do miracles and give Him words to say etc. He was superior in one way, that He was able to resist temptation. But even this was not really superhuman, as that is what humans should be able to do even though we are so weak and ignorant and lacking in faith and love etc that we cannot resist all the time.
Maybe that site is just not a Baha'i site and so is wrong, but it does give a false accessment of Jesus.
And of course Abraham, Noah, Moses and other "Manifestations" in the Bible were not able to resist sin and so did not reflect God very well at all.

 

[Brian2]

Certain attributes are unique to God. Only God is All-Powerful, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, so nobody except God can have those attributes.

Some of God's other attributes are Sovereign, Eternal, Holy, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, and Jesus also had these attributes.

Some of God's other attributes are Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient. The Manifestations of God also have these attributes. Humans also have the 'potential' to reflect these attributes of God and we reflect them to a greater of lesser degree, depending upon how spiritual we are.

I don't know what "impassable" means except "unable to be passed". However the question is whether Jesus is the perfect image of God, as the Bible says, or not.
As a man on earth Jesus would have not used many Godly attributes that belonged to Him of course, so He could be just like other humans.

As noted above, Jesus does not have all the attributes of God, as certain attributes are unique to God.

Jesus has and has always had the same nature as His Father.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

That was not a claim to be God. That was Jesus humbling Himself before God.
That was not Jesus saying that only God is good. Jesus was good and lots of people are also good.

Only God is good. Everyone sins/ed except Jesus, and that includes Moses and Noah and Abraham and Adam etc.
Jesus is good amongst men, and Jesus only.

Your logic is faulty. Being 'comparable' to something does not mean being the same as something else.

comparable
Something that is comparable to something else is roughly similar, for example in amount or importance.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/comparable

A Chevy is comparable to a Ford because they are roughly similar since they are both cars.
Jesus is comparable to God because Jesus is roughly similar to God since they both share the same Holy Spirit and some of the same attributes.

The Father is not the Son. Jesus is the Son and God is the Father. Jesus cannot be the Son and the Father. That is an illogical Trinity belief.

You are correct that Jesus cannot be the Son and the Father. That is not a Trinity belief. That is usually what anti trinitarians say that the Trinity teaches.
However the Bible does say that none are comparable to YHWH.
So is someone IS comparable to YHWH, that person is YHWH.
And the Son is comparable to His Father as the NT tells us.
That does not translate into the Son being the Father, it translates into YHWH being more than one person.
The Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son and the 2 are one (thing).

I don't know about existing from eternity or not being created, but as Prophets, they existed in the spiritual world before they came into this world.

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

It would be interesting to know if the Manifestations are supposed to have existed from eternity.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I am not denying the Bible. I am only denying YOUR INTERPRETATION of the Bible.

It’s the Bible’s interpretation of the the Bible because Scripture interprets Scripture. Revelation says that Jesus Christ is Almighty God, Isaiah 9 also says this.
Your interpretation of the Bible contradicts the Bible.
Jesus Christ emptied Himself and because of that you seem to be taking that as He isn’t God saying that in His humility He is just a man. Well, that to me is odd.
Now that He has destroyed the one who had kept us in slavery and fear of death, has risen from the dead, He has all the attribute of Almighty God, the same attributes He had before He humbled Himself and became a man. He has the name above all names, everyone will bow and worship the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Your Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible, you describe a different Jesus.

 

[shunyadragon]

The quote I gave from the site you posted does suggest that the status of a Manifestation is that of a demigod.
..........by their nature, they are inherently superior to the average human.

Incomplete.

a being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity, the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to divine rank.
"some Roman emperors claimed descent from demigods such as Hercules"

The manifestations of God in the religions do not fit the definition in complete context.

Jesus, as a man, was still the Son of God, but was the same as other humans and had to rely on His Father to empower Him to do miracles and give Him words to say etc. He was superior in one way, that He was able to resist temptation. But even this was not really superhuman, as that is what humans should be able to do even though we are so weak and ignorant and lacking in faith and love etc that we cannot resist all the time.
Maybe that site is just not a Baha'i site and so is wrong, but it does give a false accessment of Jesus.
And of course Abraham, Noah, Moses and other "Manifestations" in the Bible were not able to resist sin and so did not reflect God very well at all.

Your description above for Jesus would fit the concept of Demigod, because you consider him both human and a God as in the Trinity.

I do not pick apart scripture to come up with a specific limited belief of anyone ancient scripture or religion, because they reflect a limited human perspective, and not a more universal relationship between God, Creation and humanity. It is an extreme contradiction concerning the nature of a universal God that any one ancient cultural view of God represents God's relationship to humanity over the over 300,000 years of human existence in many cultures around the world.

I do believe the Christian concepts of the Trinity and Jesus Christ being the incarnate Son of God is in direct unresolvable contradiction with Torah scripture.

 

[shunyadragon]

Do you know whether they are said to have existed forever, uncreated?
From the same article and just before your quote: The Manifestations of God are believed to possess capacities that do not exist in humans, and this difference is not a difference in degree but a difference in kind. The Manifestations of God are not seen to be simply great thinkers or philosophers who have a better understanding than others, but that, by their nature, they are inherently superior to the average human.
That would mean that Jesus would be seen as a demigod and not as the Son of God who became a human.

Actually I do not believe in the concept of the Trinity and Jesus being the incarnate Son of God and the concept originated in the Hellenist/Roman belief in Demigod.

I believe the nature of the Manifestations of God relationship with God is spiritual savior King and not a physical Son of God as described as the concept of the Messiah in the Torah.

 

[Eli G]

God is not a human convention, or an intellectual invention, or an idea of what would be a universal god...

God is a real person, an individual Spirit person who created everything that exist. He has a personality and an identity. He is alive, He is real.

You don't know Him; You're maybe searching a way to know Him ... but you can't invent Him.