For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[shunyadragon]

I don't believe you.

Actually, you are just a character online; my God is being on the human scene for many millennia. Sorry for not giving you the attention you are asking for.

Again: have a good day.

Simple question: Who are you referring to as deifying a man?

 

[Eli G]

If you are following the thread you'll realize that there is another person participating in the dialog ... It is not very difficult to see.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, the truth is that you are deifying a man ... We, Bible students, are learning from near fourty men who God inspired, some of them even talked with God ...

No, Baha'is do not deify Baha'u'llah, and He clearly denied being God when He was accused of such.

“Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 228

How do you know that God inspired those forty men? How do you know that some of them talked to God?

Even after nearly 2,000 years of its existence, and centuries of investigation by biblical scholars, we still don't know with certainty who wrote its various texts, when they were written or under what circumstances. Jul 17, 2020

Who Wrote the Bible? - The HISTORY Channel​

Did "your person" talk any time with God?

I believe that God spoke to Baha'u'llah through the Holy Spirit, the same way that God spoke to Moses and Jesus and other prophets.

 

[Eli G]

... I believe that God spoke to Baha'u'llah through the Holy Spirit, the same way that God spoke to Moses and Jesus and other prophets.

Mmmh, no, there's not point of comparison, don't lie to yourself ... or is it BahaUllah who did lie to you?

Rev. 1:9 I John, your brother and a sharer with you in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in association with Jesus, was on the island called Patʹmos for speaking about God and bearing witness concerning Jesus. 10 By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, 11 saying: “What you see, write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations (...)

 

[Trailblazer]

Mmmh, no, there's not point of comparison, don't lie to yourself ... or is it BahaUllah who did lie to you?

No, there is no point of comparison. Baha'u'llah wrote His own scriptures.
All you have are scriptures that were written by unnamed authors, and you believe they are from God.
Did the church leaders lie to you or did you lie to yourself?

 

[Eli G]

...
All you have are scriptures that were written by unnamed authors, and you believe they are from God.
...

Nah, it is the critics of the Bible who you are listening to. What are you expecting them to tell you?
I know exactly who wrote each one of the 66 books of the Bible.
I can teach you if you want.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nah, it is the critics of the Bible who you are listening to. What are you expecting they to tell you?

No, the scholars who have studied the Bible are not critics.
They just want to know the truth about the Bible and they are objective about the matter.
You are not objective, you just see what you want to believe, like all Christians.

I know exactly who wrote each one of the 66 books of the Bible.

Then who are they? Can you name them?

 

[Eli G]

A partial answer:

Many people are told that we can’t be sure who wrote the Bible. But the Bible is often clear about who penned its contents. Some parts begin with such phrases as “the words of Nehemiah,” “the vision of Isaiah,” and “the word of Jehovah that occurred to Joel.”—Nehemiah 1:1; Isaiah 1:1; Joel 1:1.

Most Bible writers acknowledged that they wrote in the name of Jehovah, the one true God, and that they were guided by him. Prophets who wrote the Hebrew Scriptures proclaimed more than 300 times: “This is what Jehovah has said.” (Amos 1:3; Micah 2:3; Nahum 1:12) Other writers received God’s message through angels.—Zechariah 1:7,9. (Taken from https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/who-wrote-the-bible/ )

You can find there more answers as much as you are really interested on them.
Thanks for your time and interest.
Have a good day.

 

[Trailblazer]

A partial answer:

Many people are told that we can’t be sure who wrote the Bible. But the Bible is often clear about who penned its contents. Some parts begin with such phrases as “the words of Nehemiah,” “the vision of Isaiah,” and “the word of Jehovah that occurred to Joel.”—Nehemiah 1:1; Isaiah 1:1; Joel 1:1.

Most Bible writers acknowledged that they wrote in the name of Jehovah, the one true God, and that they were guided by him. Prophets who wrote the Hebrew Scriptures proclaimed more than 300 times: “This is what Jehovah has said.” (Amos 1:3; Micah 2:3; Nahum 1:12) Other writers received God’s message through angels.—Zechariah 1:7,9. (Taken from https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/who-wrote-the-bible/ )

You can find there more answers as much as you are really interested on them.
Thanks for your time and interest.
Have a good day.

I believe the Bible authors were guided by God and the prophets spoke for God.

Mírza Abú'l-Fadl was praised and recommended by 'Abdu'l-Bahá and has been justifiably called the most learned and erudite Bahá'í scholar[16]

Regarding the Old Testament, Fadl said that it contained two types of teaching: a) revelation from God, such as the 10 commandments of Moses, the Psalms of David and the books of the Prophets, and b) historical information, such as the books Joshua, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles "...which contain no statement, sign or hint of being divine speech and therefore should not be considered as revelation."[17]

Concerning the Book of Christ, he wrote that "The Holy Gospels alone contain teachings which can be regarded as the true Words of God; and these teachings do not exceed the contents of a few pages."[18]

Mírza Abú'l-Fadl's contributions are original and lucid, and appear to me to be in harmony with the understanding of the Bible which is argued for in the present paper.

16. Cole, J.R., in "editor's note", Mírza Abú'l-Fadl, Letters & Essays 1886-1913, Kalimat Press, Los Angeles, 1985, p.xiv.
17. Mírza Abú'l-Fadl in Miracles and Metaphors, Kalimat Press, Los Angeles, 1981, pp.11,12.
18. Mírza Abú'l-Fadl in The Bahá'í Proofs, Bahá'í Publishing Trust, Wilmette, Illinios, 1983, p.220.

Conclusion

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible

 

[Soapy]

Actually it can still be credited to God as being the Creator even though he let Jesus take part. To illustrate think of and engineer drawing up a floor plan for a building. He then passes that plant to the biulder. Who gets the credit for the building design? Isnt it the engineer as it was his plan. In the same sense God is the creator as it was his plan. Jesus followed the blueprints, so to speak.

It that what the scriptures teach?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." John 1:1

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him." Col 1:15-16

"Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men." Prov 8:30-31

There are more scriptures but hopefully this makes the point.

No, they do not make sense because you are taking them out if the context in which they were written.

“WISDOM” was at God’s side… Wisdom is a feminised term in the scriptures. It refers to ‘Intelligence, well thought out ideas, correctness and righteousness’. ‘God used WISDOM in the creation of the world’.

Moreover do you not read that God says he created all thing BY HIMSELF???

The declaration has nothing to do with ‘Jesus’… God, YHWH, is saying that ‘BESIDES ME THERE US NO OTHER GOD… NO ONE BUT ME CREATED ALL THINGS - I and I ALONE.’

This claim is in reference, and in CONTRAST, to PAGAN BELIEFS in which MANY GODS (typically no less than THREE!!) are claimed to be CREATORS OF THE WORLD!!!

What happened was that Trinitarians could find nothing that set Jesus Christ as GOD in the Torah, so they set about trying to turn anything vaguely pointing to ‘another’ God as being pre-existent ‘Jesus’ and IGNORING terms like ‘I, Alone’, ‘All by myself’, ‘Beside(s) me there is no other God’, ‘You shall have no other God but me’, ‘Hear, O Israel, YHWH your God, is your ONLY GOD’….

 

[Eli G]

No, they do not make sense because you are taking them out if the context in which they were written.

“WISDOM” was at God’s side… Wisdom is a feminised term in the scriptures. It refers to ‘Intelligence, well thought out ideas, correctness and righteousness’. ‘God used WISDOM in the creation of the world’.

1 Cor. 1:24 However, to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Moreover do you not read that God says he created all thing BY HIMSELF???

The declaration has nothing to do with ‘Jesus’… God, YHWH, is saying that ‘BESIDES ME THERE US NO OTHER GOD… NO ONE BUT ME CREATED ALL THINGS - I and I ALONE.’

Expressions of uniqueness simply express that the way in which the term is applied in a certain case is particular or unique, but they do not mean that the term cannot be applied differently in other cases.

Example: Jehovah said that He is the only Saviour ...

Is. 43:11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”

Nevertheless, he sent Jesus to save human kind.

This claim is in reference, and in CONTRAST, to PAGAN BELIEFS in which MANY GODS (typically no less than THREE!!) are claimed to be CREATORS OF THE WORLD!!!

That is an exaggeration. Even Jesus talked about the term "gods" applied to human judges by God himself.

JWs accept that Jesus was with Jehovah at the time of creation since THAT IS what the Scriptures teach many times (Heb. 1:2; Col. 1:16; 1 Cor. 8:6) but we don't consider Jesus to be a Creator or even a co-creator, but a means used by God as the Bible says. The Creator is Jehovah, not Jesus.

What happened was that Trinitarians could find nothing that set Jesus Christ as GOD in the Torah, so they set about trying to turn anything vaguely pointing to ‘another’ God as being pre-existent ‘Jesus’ and IGNORING terms like ‘I, Alone’, ‘All by myself’, ‘Beside(s) me there is no other God’, ‘You shall have no other God but me’, ‘Hear, O Israel, YHWH your God, is your ONLY GOD’….

That is false.
As you can read in the Bible, Christians in the first century believed that Jesus had a participation in the creation of everything.

John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence 4 by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men. (...) 10 (...) and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him.

So the participation of Jesus in the creation of the Universe next to God is a Biblical teaching.

 

[Soapy]

1 Cor. 1:24 However, to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

…sigh!!!…

The verse means that WHAT JESUS REPRESENTS is ‘The power of God’, ‘The Wisdom of God’…

It does not mean Jesus IS those things…!!

The top student in the class represents the ‘Teaching power of the Lecturer’, ‘The wisdom of the lecturer’. Jesus was TAUGHT BY GOD!!!
(Many others were taught by God but fell short in many areas - e.g. David displayed God’s power in defeating all his enemies but fell short by killing and stealing out of envy. Solomon display complete wisdom of God by fell to the wiles of a woman)

Expressions of uniqueness simply express that the way in which the term is applied in a certain case is particular or unique, but they do not mean that the term cannot be applied differently in other cases.

Example: Jehovah said that He is the only Saviour ...

Is. 43:11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”

Nevertheless, he sent Jesus to save human kind.

It seems you are a beginner in the nature of reality…!

A man runs a rescue service agency. He gets a call that some people are in deep trouble in a remote area deep in a cavern. There is no other rescue service of his kind anywhere around (in time to save the person … this is humanity!!).

He receives the emergency message which says: ‘Is there anyone out there that can save these people?’

He relays a message back to the site saying: ‘Apart from me [my Service] there is no other saviour [rescue service] who can save them - I, and I alone can save them!’

He DISPATCHES HIS BEST cave rescue agent… The agent, on arrival, and after carrying out the required risks assessment, relays down to the people, “If you trust what I say, if you do as I tell you, you will be saved… I have been taught by the best… I have been taught by the ‘God of all cave rescuers’!!!”

A few of the people do as they are told even in the most difficult circumstances and with pain and suffering, overcoming fears and disability. They emerge and are saved. But, some of the people refuse to carry out the instruction, refused to follow the directions given them and end up dying.

Now, WHO is the SAVIOUR of those who were saved? The man who runs the only agency of salvation - or the man who carried out the rescue under the directions and orders of the agency management?

l That is an exaggeration. Even Jesus talked about the term "gods" applied to human judges by God himself.

I COMPLETELY AGREE that ‘Gods’ can apply to humanity. I have written EXCESSIVELY on this topic… which clearly you have never read any of if you are going to accuse me of ‘exaggerations’!!

I have stated many times that the term, ‘God’ and ‘Gods’ refers to ‘HIM’ or ‘THEM’ who are GREATEST, who are of highest notoriety whether for good of for bad, for instance, ‘Satan’ is the GOD of this system of [bad] things in the world. Gods of pagan belief could even be human Beings whom those believers take as their SPIRITUAL MASTERS… A Chess grandmaster is the ‘GOD’ of his game… A Principal is ‘GOD’ of his School… A Judge us ‘GOD’ in his own courtroom… what’s the link between them?

Do not say I exaggerate… I get the feeling you are thinking about someone else when you see my posts.

JWs accept that Jesus was with Jehovah at the time of creation since THAT IS what the Scriptures teach many times (Heb. 1:2; Col. 1:16; 1 Cor. 8:6) but we don't consider Jesus to be a Creator or even a co-creator, but a means used by God as the Bible says. The Creator is Jehovah, not Jesus.

Why do you mention JW… Are you mistaking me for a JW… is that why you say such things against me?

That is false.
As you can read in the Bible, Christians in the first century believed that Jesus had a participation in the creation of everything.

No they did not. Trinitarians came about decades after Jesus departed. THE SCRIPTURES were taught orally for decades until Christian’s realised that Jesus was not returning IMMEDIATELY like many though… that’s why didn’t write anything down before. So, those who wrote the scriptures as you read them today were not the actual apostles who’s names are attached to the gospels. Also, thd scriptures were written IN GREEK which certainly was not Aramaic but the language of that era - a language that was more appealing since much of ‘the world (as they knew it!) was of HELENIZED Christian belief - the foundation of trinitarianism. Greek influence: Greek theology is that there are MANY GODS who are RANKED in order of power and also procreate offspring who are DEMI-GODS, both GOD and MAN…!!!

In order to align Hellenistic views of the scriptures if was necessary to alter, insert, and remove parts of scriptures.
In truth and fact it was these MODIFICATIONS of the scriptures that was and still is the problem.
Trinitarians needed to justify they’d belief so they altered small parts of scriptures to fit they’d belief. It had to be small parts as anything else would have raised deep suspicions. In order to persuade people of different religious belief to turn to the new Christian belief, they chose to pick a ‘middle line’ ideology which satisfied both camps: The pagan believed in many Gods (typically THREE) and the Christian belief was that there is only one God….

Surely you see where I’m going with this… and, indeed that was what happened… a compromise: You can have your multiple GOD but just say that ‘Though there are THREE Persons who are GODS they are only ONE GOD’.., yeah, stupid, I know - but that’s what they teach… and it worked for many conversions- one would say: ‘I converted more than you because I used compromise Three persons in one God rather than your hard line one God alone!’

Don’t get me wrong, here, I’m not supporting ARIAN belief either. TWO WRONGS don’t demand that ONE MUST BE TRUE!!! Reality is that only the two beliefs were presented as a choice - But, as was said in Star Wars: ‘No, there is another!!!’ And, just like that, it was one ‘other’ that was hidden from the sight of those who were seeking to destroy it: Remember what was said in the book of Revelation : The woman hiding the child from the dragon that sought to eat it up? Well, that ‘child’ was the true Christian belief… hidden from Satan. Satan was fooled by being presented with two ‘stones’ (Trinity vs Arianism) and ate one up (Arianism) thinking he’d destroyed God’s word by doing so!! But he now knows there was a third which he cannot destroy - which I’m presenting to you.

John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence 4 by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men. (...) 10 (...) and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him.

So the participation of Jesus in the creation of the Universe next to God is a Biblical teaching.

All things came into existence through THE POWER OF GOD - The SPIRIT OF THE FATHER. Without the spirit of God not even one thing was created that was created. No one know the spirit of God except God and those to whom God reveals it!!!!

 

[Eli G]

... No they did not. ...

YES, they did:

Heb. 1:2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

Col. 1:16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.

1 Cor. 8:6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence 4 by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men. (...) 10 (...) and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him.

By being a denier you only deceive yourself.

 

[Trailblazer]

All things came into existence through THE POWER OF GOD - The SPIRIT OF THE FATHER. Without the spirit of God not even one thing was created that was created. No one know the spirit of God except God and those to whom God reveals it!!!!

That is correct. All things came into existence through God. Nothing came into existence through Jesus since Jesus was not the Creator.
Only God had the Power to create everything in existence. Jesus had no such power.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Those verses are about God, not about Jesus. All things were made by God since God created the heavens and the earth.

The Word refers to the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word was the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When God sent Jesus, God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[Eli G]

"divine perfections"????

What is that? A bahai thing?

Jesus was next to God and God sent him down with a purpose:

Gal. 4:4 But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent his Son, who was born of a woman and who was under law, 5 that he might release by purchase those under law, so that we might receive the adoption as sons.

1 John 4:9 By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Son into the world so that we might gain life through him. 10 The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.
11 Beloved ones, if this is how God loved us, then we are also under obligation to love one another. 12 No one has seen God at any time. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us. 13 By this we know that we are remaining in union with him and he in union with us, because he has given his spirit to us. 14 In addition, we ourselves have seen and are bearing witness that the Father has sent his Son as savior of the world. 15 Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is God’s Son, God remains in union with such one and he in union with God. 16 And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us.

Bahais do not accept Biblical teachings as truth. They don't even receive Jesus as the Son of God ...
Bahais are like atheists: they just say everything the Scriptures say is metaphorical. What do they have to say about Jesus' teachings?
Nothing ... they just teach about BahaUllah, like Mormons about Joseph Smith and the rest of their modern prophets.

BUT what did the followers of Jesus believe? They believe what Jesus taught:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence (...) 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.’”) (...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

... 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. (...) 31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others. (...)

... 6:33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (...) 38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?

... 8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.” (...) 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.

... 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, (...) 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

 

[Soapy]

YES, they did:

Heb. 1:2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things,

and through whom he made the systems of things.

This part was ADDED by Trinitarians as an addendum… You can see it is not part of the original verse!!

Col. 1:16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.

What is meant by ‘BY MEANS OF HIM..’… You mean Jesus was a TOOL that the Father USED to create all things…

Now consider this: Even if the author is claiming that Jesus was a TOOL used by God do you not see that it would STILL BE GOD who CREATED all things??? Or ask yourself, which do you say: the TOOL create the Cabinet or the Cabinet maker created it?

1 Cor. 8:6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

How do you present this verse which says that ‘ALL THINGS ARE FROM THE FATHER’ and not see all else the verse says is against it?

The verse pertains to Jesus being GIVEN ALL POWER AND AUTHORITY …AFTER Jesus was taken up to heaven and Sat next to Almighty God.

That is WHY all things are NOW SUSTAINED THROUGH Jesus… ‘We LIVE because Jesus DIED (and was raised up again!!) It was THROUGH Jesus’ death to gain mankind salvation THAT WE NOW LIVE… (or rather, we have the chance of LIVING if we believe in him!!)

John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence 4 by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men. (...) 10 (...) and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him.

The verse is speaking about Almighty God, the Father. Jesus was only GRANTED to have life in him AFTER he had accomplished the task God sent him to perform: Bring the testament of God to mankind.

Jesus was then also GRANTED ‘All power and authority’ TO RULE FOR A TIME (a thousand years! After which Jesus HANDS BACK those things to GOD who is the OWNER OF THEM.) but he did not RECEIVE those things until he DIED and was raised up again and was taken up to Heaven.

By being a denier you only deceive yourself.

Yes, that’s my message to you!! Thanks… it was well conceived!! Using the phrase does not absolve yourself from its application towards yourself! Imagine a thief telling a policeman that ‘Thieves will be caught and punished!!!’ in order to try to trick the policeman into thinking that he, the thief, was not s thief, himself!?!!

 

[Colt]

Was Satan real? Was he human? What realm did he live in?

 

[Eli G]

... What is meant by ‘BY MEANS OF HIM..’…

So you do know. And yet you still...

 

[Soapy]

So you do know. And yet you still...

I asked the question - it is for you to answer it. Be it known that if is ok to say that you do not know!!! That’s fine… It’s a better choice than to try to maintain a wrongful idea by replying with a disturbingly fatuous answer.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Pretty clear that Jesus Christ is God:
”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.“
‭‭John‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬-‭5‬, ‭14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬