For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[Brian2]

Lt means what it says. The Torah and Jews have always believed that God does not become an incarnate Demigod.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that He should lie, or a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?

Yes it means what it says.
That passage does not say that God does not become a man. Have you any other passages to prove your point or is this all you have, none at all?

Yes JEsus was the son of Joseph.

Yes it does demonstrates the male lineage of Jesus as required in the Torah

Yes Matthew's genealogy may indicate the legal requirements for Jesus to be legally considered a descendant of David and in the tribe of Judah, but all it shows biologically is that Mary is the mothr of Jesus, as I demonstrated before by posting the passage that shows this.
Matt 1: 16 ...........and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

Jesus was the son of Joseph.

The disagreements here reflect our disagreement of how we interpret the texts, especially the Pentateuch.

I consider the compilation of the Gospels to be heavily influence by Hellenist Roman beliefs, therefore the verses you cite and emphasize, I consider continuity with the Torah important in understanding. the concept of the Messiah in Judaism.

Both Matthew and Luke indicate that Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.
You seem to be saying that because you think that Numbers 23:19 says that God will never become a human, then you think you have a right to change the meaning of the gospels so that Jesus was not miraculously conceived by God.
But I have shown that Numbers 23:19 does not say that God will never become a human, and I did that just by posting the verse for you to read, assuming that you are able to do that and understand what it says.
But I know other Baha'is who have trouble understanding passages in the Bible.
However it is not the Bible which Baha'is believe, it is the teachings of Baha'i.

A literal interpretation of the Pentateuch and Gospels needs to face too many contradictions as in your efforts to change the wording to justify your agenda..

Numbers 23:19God is not a man, that He should lie, or a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?

The meaning of the whole verse is that God is not like a men who lie and change their mind.
If I was to interpret it the way you do I would be taking a little phrases out of context, but as I have said, nothing in the verse says that God will not become a man.
And since there are other passages in the Torah that indicate that the Messiah is Divine and God, it does appear that the Messiah is Divine and called God.
SEEMING contradictions are fine.
You seem to want to avoid what may look like contradictions by denying huge chunks of the Bible are even true.
But it's all for the "Cause" so you are a true follower of your false prophet and have his fruits, the denying of the Bible.

 

[shunyadragon]

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that He should lie, or a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?

Yes it means what it says.
That passage does not say that God does not become a man. Have you any other passages to prove your point or is this all you have, none at all?



Yes Matthew's genealogy may indicate the legal requirements for Jesus to be legally considered a descendant of David and in the tribe of Judah, but all it shows biologically is that Mary is the mothr of Jesus, as I demonstrated before by posting the passage that shows this.
Matt 1: 16 ...........and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.



Both Matthew and Luke indicate that Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.
You seem to be saying that because you think that Numbers 23:19 says that God will never become a human, then you think you have a right to change the meaning of the gospels so that Jesus was not miraculously conceived by God.
But I have shown that Numbers 23:19 does not say that God will never become a human, and I did that just by posting the verse for you to read, assuming that you are able to do that and understand what it says.
But I know other Baha'is who have trouble understanding passages in the Bible.
However it is not the Bible which Baha'is believe, it is the teachings of Baha'i.



Numbers 23:19God is not a man, that He should lie, or a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?

The meaning of the whole verse is that God is not like a men who lie and change their mind.
If I was to interpret it the way you do I would be taking a little phrases out of context, but as I have said, nothing in the verse says that God will not become a man.
And since there are other passages in the Torah that indicate that the Messiah is Divine and God, it does appear that the Messiah is Divine and called God.
SEEMING contradictions are fine.
You seem to want to avoid what may look like contradictions by denying huge chunks of the Bible are even true.
But it's all for the "Cause" so you are a true follower of your false prophet and have his fruits, the denying of the Bible.

No prophesies indicate the Messiah will be called God. This is an extreme stretch of an interpretation. Ask the Jews the Toral is in their language.

 

[Endure]

I reviewed the thread and the original question. "For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?"

Actually no one will ultimately find out the 'True' nature of Jesus one way or the other, because the conflict and diversity over the 'mystery' is a subjective interpretation of scripture, It will remain in a way unknown in the diverse interpretations of the different sects of Christianity from the Trinity to Unity no Trinity are set in doctrine that people will not likely change. The ultimate reality of God is likely unknowable.

Yes, according to your understanding of a Trinitarian God, Jesus as God incarnate Created everything, but not everyone agrees in the concept of a Trinitarian God, and many believe the concept of a Trinitarian God is a later interpretation of the Bible arrived at as a doctrine of the Roman Church. You have to realize the Jews in their understanding of their book in Hebrew there is no basis for this belief.

The Biblical understanding/teaching of God is not Trinitarian.

 

[ElishaElijah]

The Biblical understanding/teaching of God is not Trinitarian.

It is from the beginning in Genesis and through Revelation. Right there in plain language
”Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”“
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1‬:‭26‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Endure]

It is from the beginning in Genesis and through Revelation. Right there in plain language
”Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”“
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1‬:‭26‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Since you claim that it teaches that God is three persons in plain language, I challenge you to present that.

Your proof text is child's play as it has been debunked ad nauseum all over the internet. It is very easily proven, with multiple verses, not only that Elohim can be singular in the Hebrew but that the US includes the Angels that were present.

Now, show the Bible teaching the actual "concept" of God being three persons.

Good luck.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Since you claim that it teaches that God is three persons in plain language, I challenge you to present that.

Your proof text is child's play as it has been debunked ad nauseum all over the internet. It is very easily proven, with multiple verses, not only that Elohim can be singular in the Hebrew but that the US includes the Angels that were present.

Now, show the Bible teaching the actual "concept" of God being three persons.

Good luck.

The internet debunking the Scriptures? So let’s take Satan’s word for it as he is the master at deception and twisting the Scriptures.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in the Gospel of John. So simple a child can understand

 

[Endure]

The internet debunking the Scriptures? So let’s take Satan’s word for it as he is the master at deception and twisting the Scriptures.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in the Gospel of John. So simple a child can understand

Weird rebuttal.

So I guess you're satan since you're on the internet? Makes sense.

By your logic I will respond with a counter argument of equal depth.

The Bible makes clear that God is one individual, not three. So simple a child could understand it.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Weird rebuttal.

So I guess you're satan since you're on the internet? Makes sense.

By your logic I will respond with a counter argument of equal depth.

The Bible makes clear that God is one individual, not three. So simple a child could understand it.

How many persons is Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
3 or 1?

 

[Endure]

How many persons is Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
3 or 1?

One

 

[metis]

How many persons is Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
3 or 1?

Depends on whether "essence" is used in this consideration. The early Church in the 4th century used "essence" to teach that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were and are of the "essence" of God.

 

[ElishaElijah]

One

Explain what you mean by that?

 

[Sargonski]

Weird rebuttal.

So I guess you're satan since you're on the internet? Makes sense.

By your logic I will respond with a counter argument of equal depth.

The Bible makes clear that God is one individual, not three. So simple a child could understand it.

Does the Bible Make it clear that God is one individual .. "So simple a child could understand" -- I think not Brother Endure .. and if you think Satan is in there mixing things up .. then things are even more complicated (Less simple)

Jesus - in every passage where he is referring to "The Father" -- Jesus refers to that God as an entity other than himself .. "My God .. Please take this cup from my hand .. but let it be your will and not mine .. followed by "my God, my God .. why have you forsaken me"

If you wish to claim Jesus is not a God .. then this passage works .. if you do claim Jesus is a God .. then there are two Gods in this Biblical snapshot .. along with all the other times Jesus refers to the Most High as someone other than himself .. having a separate mind .. and a separate will .. even if their purposes align at times "One in Purpose" ... these are two separate will's each having their own personage as Elisha says ..

"In the Beginning" of the NT story ... Jesus is not a God but a Man .. comming before John the Baptist .. a Man who is adopted by a Patron God .. So goes the story of Sargon .. of Abraham .. of Moses .. although Abe and Moses were not diefied after death like Sargon and Jesus.

At his baptism .. a man of 30 Jesus gets the divine spark .. but must first pass through a sacred ritual prior to becomming a half man half God Character. In this Ritual Trial .. Jesus meets Satan .. a God in his own right .. one of the Sons of the Supreme God .. El Elyon the Most High God.

Did they not teach you in Sunday School about the God - Like Powers of Ha Satan .. one of El Elyon's many Sons ~ 70 according to Deut 32:8 .. to each was apportioned a people on Earth .. YHWH's portion the line of Jacob.

Ha Satan is God's tester .. sent by God to test us humans from time to time .. and do other things when God wishes to intervene in the affairs of men.

How did you put it "So simple a child could understand" ?

How many persons is Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
3 or 1?

 

[Endure]

Explain what you mean by that?

No, I'm not jumping through your series of hoops.

The Bible makes clear that God is one individual.

The Trinity concept is made up by man, taught nowhere in the Bible.

Simple as that.

 

[ElishaElijah]

One

So is that Echad or Yachid? For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh.
Are there 2 people becoming 1 Echad ?

 

[Endure]

Does the Bible Make it clear that God is one individual .. "So simple a child could understand" -- I think not Brother Endure .. and if you think Satan is in there mixing things up .. then things are even more complicated (Less simple)

Jesus - in every passage where he is referring to "The Father" -- Jesus refers to that God as an entity other than himself .. "My God .. Please take this cup from my hand .. but let it be your will and not mine .. followed by "my God, my God .. why have you forsaken me"

If you wish to claim Jesus is not a God .. then this passage works .. if you do claim Jesus is a God .. then there are two Gods in this Biblical snapshot .. along with all the other times Jesus refers to the Most High as someone other than himself .. having a separate mind .. and a separate will .. even if their purposes align at times "One in Purpose" ... these are two separate will's each having their own personage as Elisha says ..

"In the Beginning" of the NT story ... Jesus is not a God but a Man .. comming before John the Baptist .. a Man who is adopted by a Patron God .. So goes the story of Sargon .. of Abraham .. of Moses .. although Abe and Moses were not diefied after death like Sargon and Jesus.

At his baptism .. a man of 30 Jesus gets the divine spark .. but must first pass through a sacred ritual prior to becomming a half man half God Character. In this Ritual Trial .. Jesus meets Satan .. a God in his own right .. one of the Sons of the Supreme God .. El Elyon the Most High God.

Did they not teach you in Sunday School about the God - Like Powers of Ha Satan .. one of El Elyon's many Sons ~ 70 according to Deut 32:8 .. to each was apportioned a people on Earth .. YHWH's portion the line of Jacob.

Ha Satan is God's tester .. sent by God to test us humans from time to time .. and do other things when God wishes to intervene in the affairs of men.

How did you put it "So simple a child could understand" ?

All of that to say absolutely nothing.

Your grasp of Scripture is very weak.

Jesus claims to be God many times, many ways. He claims to be the Father and the Father claims to be Him.

If you're not aware of this, you'd best be running along back to .... "Sunday school."

 

[Endure]

So is that Echad or Yachid? For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh.
Are there 2 people becoming 1 Echad ?

One individual.

God is ONE.

Not 3, not 2.

One.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No, I'm not jumping through your series of hoops.

The Bible makes clear that God is one individual.

The Trinity concept is made up by man, taught nowhere in the Bible.

Simple as that.

”“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.“
‭‭John‬ ‭17‬:‭20‬-‭23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Man has come up with the word trinity to describe what the Bible teaches about God.

 

[ElishaElijah]

One individual.

God is ONE.

Not 3, not 2.

One.

The word would have been Yachid if that were the case but it’s not, Echad is used.

 

[Endure]

Man has come up with the word trinity to describe what the Bible teaches about God.

I'm still waiting for that teaching.

Anytime now.

Show us all where the Bible teaches the concept that God is 3 persons.

You are handicapping yourself with your claims because you have zero support for your position. That's very self-defeating. Every single verse that you can pull from Scripture and say "See, this is talking about the Trinity!" is a textbook mistranslation if you cannot produce a specific "teaching" from Scripture that God is three people.

You cannot.

 

[Endure]

The word would have been Yachid if that were the case but it’s not, Echad is used.

What word, what verse are you referring to?

Are you trying to claim that the Hebrew word Yachid is never used in the Bible in reference to God?

That's an awful big gamble to take if that's where you wanna go.