For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[Truthseeker]

It could be just above the clouds.
Do you have a better understanding of where heaven might be in this modern age?

Yes, certainly we have a better understanding of where heaven is than the Christians did at that time. It is in no location. You said that also but why would Jesus have to ascend to the clouds if heaven has no location. It is unnecessary.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You have your head in the sand, in my opinion. You believe what you want to believe on this one.

There are quite a few reasons that the Census happened in the year 6 CE. First off until then censuses were illegal under Jewish law. That dates back to the time of King David. There was even in well recorded revolt as part of the Census of Quirinius, and the date for that census is well known. Second Herod's Judea was a client kingdom. They were not under Roman rule at that time. The main purpose of client kingdoms was to have close allies that were buffers in case an enemy wanted to attack Rome. There was no census of the entire Roman Empire. The first one did not occur for a about 70 years. And let's not forget what the census was for. It was for purposes of taxation. One neve taxes people based upon where they came from and require them to return there. One does a census on where people live and earn money if one wants to tax them. Having people return to ancestral homes makes no sense at all.

And what Christians do not seem to understand is that excuses are not refutations. What is needed to refute the history that shows the two dates to be in contradiction is even stronger historical evidence and it just does not seem to exist. All that has ever been brought against the evidence are posts from Christian apologists, and those are of no value in a historical debate.

 

[Trailblazer]

A parallel reading of them shows them to be inconsistent. From the time of the day of the crucifixion, that day of the crucifixion itself, who went to the tomb, who was seen at the tomb, and other problems. They are not just supposed points of view differences. Bart Ehrman is well known for employing that technique to show the contradictions.

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/124572693

How Does the Resurrection Story Change in the Gospels?

How does the resurrection story change in the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? How is the story similar and different and why?

www.bartehrman.com

From the preview of DID THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS REALLY HAPPEN by Bart Ehrman.

1 Corinthians 15:14-20 KJV

and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Christ died ON THE CROSS for our sins. The resurrection has nothing to do with it. It is a completely superfluous made up story. Why it was made us is anyone's best guess.

Imagine that, a whole religion based upon fictitious stories.

Of course, as a Baha'i I have a completely different interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:14-20.

Won’t the Dead Rise Again?

Suffice to say that you have to read the entire chapter in order to understand (a) what was meant by 'resurrection of the dead' and (b) what will happen to our physical bodies after we die.

 

[Truthseeker]

My understanding of the Bible is that it tells us the truth.
When I first started looking at Baha'u'llah as a Bible believer, I say this passage and realised that Baha'u'llah was a false Christ and that there was no reason to go any further.
Anything I have heard from Baha'is since has just confirmed what I initially saw, that Baha'is deny the Bible and twist the meaning and that this is a result of what Baha'u'llah taught and Baha'is belief in Baha'u'llah above anything that the Bible tells us.

We believe that too. The details can be wrong, but it guides the Christians to the truth. The important truths are teachings like the so-called sermon on the mount. Whether Jesus was physically raised from the dead is unimportant. Whether Jesus is part of a triune God is unimportant. But Christians have fastened themselves to those details because they argued among themselves about those matters, and over time they became more important than the important truths, which is how we live our lives, and how we connect with God spiritually.

 

[Subduction Zone]

From the preview of DID THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS REALLY HAPPEN by Bart Ehrman.

1 Corinthians 15:14-20 KJV

and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Christ died ON THE CROSS for our sins. The resurrection has nothing to do with it. It is a completely superfluous made up story. Why it was made us is anyone's best guess.

Imagine that, a whole religion based upon fictitious stories.

Of course, as a Baha'i I have a completely different interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:14-20.

Won’t the Dead Rise Again?

Suffice to say that you have to read the entire chapter in order to understand (a) what was meant by 'resurrection of the dead' and (b) what will happen to our physical bodies after we die.

The alternative is laid out rather clearly in the verse that you quoted. I know that you do not want it to be true but:

" if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain;"

I cut it off then because the writer made an improper conclusion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Imagine that. Basing one's entire belief system on one interpretation of three verses in the Bible....
Now that is what I call illogical.

On top of that, those verses were not even anything that Jesus said! It is only a story men told, not a story that is verifiable in any way.

 

[Trailblazer]

The alternative is laid out rather clearly in the verse that you quoted. I know that you do not want it to be true but:

" if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain;"

Why do you think those verses are true, or do you?
Why would our faith be in vain if Christ was not raised from the dead?
That is the 100-dollar question.

Just for the sake of argument, let's say that Christ was raised from the dead. Why would that mean that Christians will also be raised from the dead?
Where does the Bible say that? I don't think the Bible says that, I think it is a made up Christian doctrine.

I cut it off then because the writer made an improper conclusion.

Here is the second part you cut off: ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Why would the first part be true and the second part false?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why do you think those verses are true, or do you?
Why would our faith be in vain if Christ was not raised from the dead?
That is the 100-dollar question.

Just for the sake of argument, let's say that Christ was raised from the dead. Why would that mean that Christians will also be raised from the dead?
Where does the Bible say that? I don't think the Bible says that, I think it is a made up Christian doctrine.

Here is the second part you cut off: ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Why would the first part be true and the second part false?

Not totally. I think that the alternative is correct. Except for the part of "being in sin". When Jesus died, he died. Substitutionary atonement simply does not work.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Where does the Bible say that? I don't think the Bible says that, I think it is a made up Christian doctrine.

What Does the Bible Say About The Resurrection Of The Dead?

Bible verses about The Resurrection Of The Dead

www.openbible.info

 

[Dimi95]

Why do you think those verses are true, or do you?
Why would our faith be in vain if Christ was not raised from the dead?
That is the 100-dollar question.

Just for the sake of argument, let's say that Christ was raised from the dead. Why would that mean that Christians will also be raised from the dead?
Where does the Bible say that? I don't think the Bible says that, I think it is a made up Christian doctrine.

It is very important to say in which way do you adress this.
What do you mean by raised from the dead?
Does that mean the way to the Kingdom?

We Christians have no such doctorine.We do not make our faith dependable.
There are verses in the Bible that confirm that.

James 2 denies your assumption

And Jesus confirms it in

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

Who do you think is he speaking to here.To what group of people?

Here is the second part you cut off: ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Why would the first part be true and the second part false?

Do i need to point the moral and ethics from the Bible to deny this ?
"Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."
Can you explain to me , who are 'They'?

Cause i don't think that we understand this verse the same.

This is not evidence for you against Christian doctorine.
This is Evidence for 'Christians' who go against Christian doctorines.

Where do you get this data from?

 

[Trailblazer]

Not totally. I think that the alternative is correct. Except for the part of "being in sin". When Jesus died, he died. Substitutionary atonement simply does not work.

I do not believe in substitutionary atonement either. I believe that Jesus died for our sins in a certain sense, but not as atonement for them, since I do not believe there was an original sin to atone for.

 

[Trailblazer]

What Does the Bible Say About The Resurrection Of The Dead?

Bible verses about The Resurrection Of The Dead

www.openbible.info

I know what the Bible says about the resurrection, that was not my question.

I asked:
Just for the sake of argument, let's say that Christ was raised from the dead. Why would that mean that Christians will also be raised from the dead?
Where does the Bible say that? I don't think the Bible says that, I think it is a made up Christian doctrine.

 

[Dimi95]

I know what the Bible says about the resurrection, that was not my question.

I asked:
Just for the sake of argument, let's say that Christ was raised from the dead. Why would that mean that Christians will also be raised from the dead?
Where does the Bible say that? I don't think the Bible says that, I think it is a made up Christian doctrine.

In literal sence it means that sin operates through the law of the flesh which is the Torah.

In order to avoid sin , you must belive in the ressurection of Jesus Christ.
That is the law of the Spirit.

Romans 8:1-4
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.And so he condemned sin in the flesh,in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

But this does not mean that when you say Jesus is God , you are automatically saved.

From where have you learned this things?

I am more convinced that you don't understand Christianity.

Context deny your assumptions and you are still consistent on your claims?

I just want to figure it out why..

What is false for you in Christianity?

 

[Truthseeker]

One neve taxes people based upon where they came from and require them to return there. One does a census on where people live and earn money if one wants to tax them. Having people return to ancestral homes makes no sense at all.

Listen to this @Brian2.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is very important to say in which way do you adress this.
What do you mean by raised from the dead?

I was not talking about 'what I believe it means', I was talking about what I think Christians believe it means.

Christians believe that the resurrection of Jesus from the dead means that Christians will all be raised from the dead on judgment say, when Jesus returns.
Christians believe that raised from the dead means their physical bodies will rise out of their graves and be brought back to life.

That is not what I believe resurrection of the dead means. I believe it means being brought back to spiritual life, not physical life.

Does that mean the way to the Kingdom?

No, I do not think being raised from the dead physically is the way to the kingdom, but being raised spiritually is one way to the Kingdom.

We Christians have no such doctorine.We do not make our faith dependable.
There are verses in the Bible that confirm that.

James 2 denies your assumption

What assumption?

And Jesus confirms it in

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

I agree with that verse. Only those who do the will of the father will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Who do you think is he speaking to here.To what group of people?

I believe that Jesus is speaking to everyone.

Do i need to point the moral and ethics from the Bible to deny this ?
"Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."
Can you explain to me , who are 'They'?

"They" are the people who are not following the moral and ethical teachings of Jesus.

Cause i don't think that we understand this verse the same.

I think maybe we do.

This is not evidence for you against Christian doctorine.
This is Evidence for 'Christians' who go against Christian doctorines.

Oh? What Christian doctrines do you think that Christians go against?
By Christian doctrines I mean Church taught doctrines.

There do you get this data from?

Internet websites.

Essential Doctrines of Christianity​

by Matt Slick | Nov 23, 2008 | Doctrine and Theology, Christianity

The Bible itself reveals those doctrines that are essential to the Christian faith. They are 1) the Deity of Christ, 2) Salvation by Grace, 3) Resurrection of Christ, 4) the gospel, and 5) monotheism. These are the doctrines the Bible says are necessary. Though there are many other important doctrines, these five are the ones that are declared by Scripture to be essential (I call them primary essentials since the Bible declares them as essential). A non-regenerate person (i.e., Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness, atheist, Muslim), will deny one or more of these essential doctrines. Please note that there are other derivative doctrines of scripture that become necessary also and the Trinity being one.

Essential Doctrines of Christianity

 

[Truthseeker]

I was not talking about 'what I believe it means', I was talking about what I think Christians believe it means.

Christians believe that the resurrection of Jesus from the dead means that Christians will all be raised from the dead on judgment say, when Jesus returns.
Christians believe that raised from the dead means their physical bodies will rise out of their graves and be brought back to life.

That is not what I believe resurrection of the dead means. I believe it means being brought back to spiritual life, not physical life.

No, I do not think being raised from the dead physically is the way to the kingdom, but being raised spiritually is one way to the Kingdom.

What assumption?

I agree with that verse. Only those who do the will of the father will enter the kingdom of heaven.

I believe that Jesus is speaking to everyone.

"They" are the people who are not following the moral and ethical teachings of Jesus.

I think maybe we do.

Oh? What Christian doctrines do you think that Christians go against?
By Christian doctrines I mean Church taught doctrines.

Internet websites.

Essential Doctrines of Christianity​

by Matt Slick | Nov 23, 2008 | Doctrine and Theology, Christianity

The Bible itself reveals those doctrines that are essential to the Christian faith. They are 1) the Deity of Christ, 2) Salvation by Grace, 3) Resurrection of Christ, 4) the gospel, and 5) monotheism. These are the doctrines the Bible says are necessary. Though there are many other important doctrines, these five are the ones that are declared by Scripture to be essential (I call them primary essentials since the Bible declares them as essential). A non-regenerate person (i.e., Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness, atheist, Muslim), will deny one or more of these essential doctrines. Please note that there are other derivative doctrines of scripture that become necessary also and the Trinity being one.

Essential Doctrines of Christianity

Okay, so there are Christians that are not really Christians according to those "essential doctrines". I couldn't care less about number 1, number 3 if it's physical. Number 2 and 4 are essential. 5 is probably not essential.

 

[Trailblazer]

In literal sence it means that sin operates through the law of the flesh which is the Torah.

In order to avoid sin , you must belive in the ressurection of Jesus Christ.
That is the law of the Spirit.

Romans 8:1-4
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.And so he condemned sin in the flesh,in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.

Yes, I agree, God sent His Son as a sin offering. This is a Baha'i teaching.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things...... Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86​

But how is that related to the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ? Why was that necessary? What did it achieve? NOTHING.

But this does not mean that when you say Jesus is God , you are automatically saved.

From where have you learned this things?

I never claimed that because you say Jesus is God you are automatically saved.
Where did you ever get that idea?

I am more convinced that you don't understand Christianity.

I understand Christianity only too well. I am more convinced that you don't understand Christianity.
Maybe you are a Christian outlier but you don't seem to believe in the same things most Christians believe are most important.
Good for you because I don't believe in those things either!

Context deny your assumptions and you are still consistent on your claims?

I just want to figure it out why..

What assumptions.

What is false for you in Christianity?

Want a list? Here are the most important things I believe are false.

1. Jesus is literally God in the flesh
2. Jesus is the only way to the Father, for all of time
3. Jesus was raised from the dead in a physical body, came back to life and walked around town
4. Those who believe in Jesus are saved by grace alone with no need for good deeds
5. Jesus is going to return to earth in the same body, a glorified physical body
6. Jesus is going to return and raise Christians from their physical graves on judgment day
7. Jesus is going to build the Kingdom of God on earth
8. There is a heaven for Christians and everyone else goes to hell

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, so there are Christians that are not really Christians according to those "essential doctrines". I couldn't care less about number 1, number 3 if it's physical. Number 2 and 4 are essential. 5 is probably not essential.

The Bible itself reveals those doctrines that are essential to the Christian faith.
They are 1) the Deity of Christ, 2) Salvation by Grace, 3) Resurrection of Christ, 4) the gospel, and 5) monotheism.
Essential Doctrines of Christianity

Does your response represent what you consider to be a Baha'i viewpoint?

Are you saying that Salvation by Grace and the gospel are essential but monotheism (one God) is not essential?

From a Baha'i viewpoint the Deity of Christ, Salvation by Grace, and Resurrection of Christ are false doctrines of the church.

From a Baha'i viewpoint the gospel is no longer essential but monotheism (one God) is essential.

 

[Dimi95]

I was not talking about 'what I believe it means', I was talking about what I think Christians believe it means.

Christians believe that the resurrection of Jesus from the dead means that Christians will all be raised from the dead on judgment say, when Jesus returns.
Christians believe that raised from the dead means their physical bodies will rise out of their graves and be brought back to life.

1 Corinthians 139-12
"For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

We can assume how would be on the other side , but it says that then we will know fully.
It does not say that is wrong.

That is not what I believe resurrection of the dead means. I believe it means being brought back to spiritual life, not physical life.

I agree
But that doesn't give evidence of the form.We can't know how we will be raised since death is needed as an act.

No, I do not think being raised from the dead physically is the way to the kingdom, but being raised spiritually is one way to the Kingdom.

You are denying only the form , when form is irrelevant.
Are you sayinf that you can't be raised spiritually and sence your physical body?

What assumption?

Let me see first how many there are..

I agree with that verse. Only those who do the will of the father will enter the kingdom of heaven.

I agree also , but i note also that you quoted the verse that suits your understanding.

I believe that Jesus is speaking to everyone.

I like the progress..
We should agree more

"They" are the people who are not following the moral and ethical teachings of Jesus.

Ok , that applies also for Christians.
The Law of The Spirit is explained in parables.

We agree one more time.

I think maybe we do.

At least , i hope we will..

Oh? What Christian doctrines do you think that Christians go against?
By Christian doctrines I mean Church taught doctrines.

Internet websites.

Essential Doctrines of Christianity​

by Matt Slick | Nov 23, 2008 | Doctrine and Theology, Christianity

The Bible itself reveals those doctrines that are essential to the Christian faith. They are 1) the Deity of Christ, 2) Salvation by Grace, 3) Resurrection of Christ, 4) the gospel, and 5) monotheism. These are the doctrines the Bible says are necessary. Though there are many other important doctrines, these five are the ones that are declared by Scripture to be essential (I call them primary essentials since the Bible declares them as essential). A non-regenerate person (i.e., Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness, atheist, Muslim), will deny one or more of these essential doctrines. Please note that there are other derivative doctrines of scripture that become necessary also and the Trinity being one.

Essential Doctrines of Christianity

Orthodox do not belive in the idea od Divine Simplicity the way that Catholics and Protestants do.

In Orthodox , we have different kind of philosophy,

Simplicity as applied to God is the doctrine that He is absolutely one in His essence, without any divisions. The simplicity of God means there is no composition or complexity of any kind in God, whether substantially or accidentally. He has no modes, parts, or poles. Whatever is appropriately attributed to Him is said of His absolutely one nature (essence). It also implies that God is without any capacity to be divided.

So if you want to know more , i suggest this Book

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27903548

 

[ElishaElijah]

I know what the Bible says about the resurrection, that was not my question.

I asked:
Just for the sake of argument, let's say that Christ was raised from the dead. Why would that mean that Christians will also be raised from the dead?
Where does the Bible say that? I don't think the Bible says that, I think it is a made up Christian doctrine.

The only people that receive eternal life are believers, born of the Spirit, Christians. That’s how your name is written in the Book of Life.

”For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.“
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

”And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭12‬-‭15‬ ‭NKJV‬‬