For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[Brian2]

Why would our faith be in vain if Christ was not raised from the dead?
That is the 100-dollar question.

Fora start, if Jesus was not raised from the dead then He would not have fulfilled OT prophecy about the Messiah and so would not be the Messiah.

(Just as Baha'u'llah fulfils nothing about the return of Jesus.)

 

[Brian2]

28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

28:8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.

28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

28:10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

28:11 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.

28:12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, 28:13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.

28:14 And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.

28:15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
(King James Bible, Matthew)


20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
(King James Bible, John)

In the first account in Matthew, the disciples were directed to Galilee, where Jesus met them on a mountain. In the second, Jesus met them in a room. Was there a room in the mountain? They were not directed anywhere in the second one. He came to meet them where they were.

So we find out where and to whom Jesus appeared when we combine the gospels.
He appeared to them in Galilee but only after first appearing to them in Jerusalem that same day.
Even Paul adds to the appearances.

 

[Soapy]

So in the 21st century we know that people cannot walk on water or calm storms with a command so Jesus did not do those things?

Your statement just serves to be a claim against Trinitarians who claim that Jesus was God because God walked on water and calmed the storm!

But the true Christian says Jesus did do these things BY FAITH… Faith which is desperately lacking in todays environment and mindset. Look at Peter… He was WITH Jesus and walked on water for a short distance before his FAITH GAVE WAY.: ‘Oh ye of Little faith… if ye had faith as small as a mustard seed …!’

Mind you, it doesn’t mean that HAVING FULL FAITH means you should do CRAZY THINGS… MAD THINGS… for indeed you may BUT it would end in a disaster - not what you were expecting!!! It is so because faith relies on the spirit of God in order to be fulfilled. So Jesus walked on water BECAUSE he had faith in the spirit of God.. not BECAUSE he was God (which he wasn’t!!)

 

[Truthseeker]

As do you when you deny Luke as a historical source and treat him as guilty of error until proven right.
I try to look at what other historical sources have shown are the possibilities, and that shows that Luke could be correct.

I've had similar experiences of wanting to believe what the Baha'i Faith says on some matters, albeit with a ton of evidence that says Baha'i is for real on the other hand. I've worked things out.

However I don't think that the Luke and Acts accounts being completely accurate should be a dealbreaker for you. Why would it be a dealbreaker for you? Jesus' validity doesn't depend on that in my opinion.

 

[Truthseeker]

However you kid yourself when you say we have a better understanding of where heaven is than Christians in the first century did.

I do? They didn't know about the vacuum of space back then, and stars billions of light years away. It is probable to me, though of course I can't prove it, that they thought heaven was what we call outer space. That was the common understanding back then. For instance, astrology started with people that thought that.

Why not. It may have been a symbolic ascension, so that the disciples knew where He was going and may be a symbolic descent by the same Jesus, the same way they saw Him ascend.

I think it was a symbolic ascension and descension, though not the way you are thinking of.

 

[Truthseeker]

Baha'is make a big deal about the unimportant detail of whether Jesus was physically raised from the dead, and the Trinity (who Jesus is)
The atoning death and subsequent resurrection are the heart of the gospel message and are prophesied in the OT.

Yes, Baha'is do argue about that, but we really shouldn't. Why is the trinity belief so important to you? I'm just asking a question at this time.

Christians are the Body of Christ, united spiritually to Christ, who lives in us by His Spirit.

I don't doubt that. At least some are.

 

[Truthseeker]

Fora start, if Jesus was not raised from the dead then He would not have fulfilled OT prophecy about the Messiah and so would not be the Messiah.

I see that @Trailblazer already asked one the questions I asked. I find that different people interpret prophecies different ways. Your interpretation of prophecy could be wrong since prophecy interpreted is in the eye of the beholder. A prophecy not being fulfilled according to my interpretation is not something that would break my faith in Baha'u'llah. Isn't there something more solid you can hold onto, like His exalted teachings or His sinless life?

I'm going back to remove that particular question since there's no need for you to answer it twice.

 

[Brian2]

Why is the trinity belief so important to you? I'm just asking a question at this time.

The trinity teaching or something very similar just seems to be the truth from my reading of the Bible.

 

[Brian2]

I see that @Trailblazer already asked one the questions I asked. I find that different people interpret prophecies different ways. Your interpretation of prophecy could be wrong since prophecy interpreted is in the eye of the beholder. A prophecy not being fulfilled according to my interpretation is not something that would break my faith in Baha'u'llah. Isn't there something more solid you can hold onto, like His exalted teachings or His sinless life?

I'm going back to remove that particular question since there's no need for you to answer it twice.

I go with the interpretation of prophecy which the NT applies to Jesus from the OT prophecies. So it is only partly my interpretation.
There are some OT prophecies applied to Jesus in the NT and which Baha'i wants to say should be applied to Baha'u'llah.
I suppose Baha'i has to do that so that Baha'u'llah has some prophecies to point to and say that Baha'u'llah somehow fulfilled and so is whom he claimed to be.
No fulfilment of prophecy means that Jesus is not whom He claimed to be and it is the same for Baha'u'llah.
Baha'u'llah fulfilled nothing but claims for himself, prophecies about Jesus from the OT and also from the NT, and prophecies and teachings about the Holy Spirit etc

 

[Truthseeker]

I go with the interpretation of prophecy which the NT applies to Jesus from the OT prophecies. So it is only partly my interpretation.
There are some OT prophecies applied to Jesus in the NT and which Baha'i wants to say should be applied to Baha'u'llah.
I suppose Baha'i has to do that so that Baha'u'llah has some prophecies to point to and say that Baha'u'llah somehow fulfilled and so is whom he claimed to be.
No fulfilment of prophecy means that Jesus is not whom He claimed to be and it is the same for Baha'u'llah.
Baha'u'llah fulfilled nothing but claims for himself, prophecies about Jesus from the OT and also from the NT, and prophecies and teachings about the Holy Spirit etc

There are not that many prophecies in the Bible which authoritative figures in our faith point to as Baha'u'llah fulfilling those, or the Bab. There are some, such as in Isaiah 53 which are not authoritative, but have nevertheless had Baha'is point to that as Baha'u'llah fulfilling those. William Sears did a lot of that in Thief in the Night, but he he is not authoritative, and those today are not important to me whether Baha'u'llah is a fulfillment of those. Naturally, those done by Abdu'l-Baha or Baha'u'llah I would be more inclined to defend though sometimes the details of those look suspect, especially to those who are not Baha'is, so I would not use those either to try to prove the validity of Baha'u'llah. I believe the only reason fulfillment of prophecies are used by the central figures of my faith is to strengthen the faith of those who already believe. There have been times when those not Baha'is have been impressed by the seeming fulfillment of prophecies and investigated further, but that's not usually the way people come into the faith, and there is further investigation generally after the prophecies are encountered. What is important to me is not fulfillment of prophecies but the sterling character of Baha'u'llah, how those associated with Him especially became spiritual giants, and His Writings that raise me up sometimes to spiritual heights just by reading them, and which in a rational sense look like a work of genius. By striving to follow His teachings, only good things happen. I don't do enough of that.

From my experience on the internet, it seems to me that using prophecies to convince Christians doesn't work at all, and may get them further from considering the Baha'i Faith favorably. The reason for that is that debating things like that makes the other person want to defend their position all the more. Prophecies can be interpreted a number of ways. Debating in general tends to do that, not just about prophecies. I have debated myself online, but I recognize now that this approach to people is not a good one. I still fall into debate sometimes.

 

[Trailblazer]

No fulfilment of prophecy means that Jesus is not whom He claimed to be and it is the same for Baha'u'llah.

That's true, if anyone could know they have the correct interpretation of the prophecies.

Baha'u'llah fulfilled nothing but claims for himself, prophecies about Jesus from the OT and also from the NT, and prophecies and teachings about the Holy Spirit etc

You talk about your personal opinion as if it is a fact...
It is only your opinion that Baha'u'llah did not fulfill the OT and NT prophecies. In my opinion He fulfilled them.

 

[Brian2]

There are not that many prophecies in the Bible which authoritative figures in our faith point to as Baha'u'llah fulfilling those, or the Bab. There are some, such as in Isaiah 53 which are not authoritative, but have nevertheless had Baha'is point to that as Baha'u'llah fulfilling those.

Authorised or not, Baha'u'llah takes things of Jesus and glorifies himself with them.

There have been times when those not Baha'is have been impressed by the seeming fulfillment of prophecies and investigated further, but that's not usually the way people come into the faith, and there is further investigation generally after the prophecies are encountered. What is important to me is not fulfillment of prophecies but the sterling character of Baha'u'llah, how those associated with Him especially became spiritual giants, and His Writings that raise me up sometimes to spiritual heights just by reading them, and which in a rational sense look like a work of genius. By striving to follow His teachings, only good things happen. I don't do enough of that.

The truth is that Baha'u'llah offers nothing that Jesus did not offer.
There is a spirit of deception working behind what Baha'u'llah wrote.
For a Christian like me it is the changing of the meaning of prophecies about the returned Jesus which are important. He fulfills nothing without changing the meaning.
iow he fulfills nothing.

 

[Brian2]

That's true, if anyone could know they have the correct interpretation of the prophecies.

You talk about your personal opinion as if it is a fact...
It is only your opinion that Baha'u'llah did not fulfill the OT and NT prophecies. In my opinion He fulfilled them.

He fulfills only what he firsts changes the meaning of.
Any false Christ can do and does that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Authorised or not, Baha'u'llah takes things of Jesus and glorifies himself with them.

Show me where Baha'u'llah takes things of Jesus and glorifies himself with them.

The truth is that Baha'u'llah offers nothing that Jesus did not offer.

Baha'u'llah did offer many things that Jesus did not offer, including how we are to build the New World Order.
Baha'u'llah also offered a new Book of Laws.

There is a spirit of deception working behind what Baha'u'llah wrote.
For a Christian like me it is the changing of the meaning of prophecies about the returned Jesus which are important. He fulfills nothing without changing the meaning.
iow he fulfills nothing.

There is going to be no return of Jesus, so the deception is on the part of the Christian churches that each that Jesus will return.
There can be no fulfillment of the return of Christ prophecies by Jesus unless you can somehow change the plain meaning of the following verses.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[Trailblazer]

He fulfills only what he firsts changes the meaning of.
Any false Christ can do and does that.

Baha'u'llah does not have to change the meaning of any prophecies.
It is Christians who have to change the meaning in order to believe that the same Jesus is going to return.

Acts 1:9-11 is contradicted by the following verses. You insist on believing Acts 1:9-11 but you deny the following verses.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[Brian2]

Show me where Baha'u'llah takes things of Jesus and glorifies himself with them.

All those OT prophecies applied to Jesus in God's Word, the New Testament.

Baha'u'llah did offer many things that Jesus did not offer, including how we are to build the New World Order.
Baha'u'llah also offered a new Book of Laws.

The Father and Son living in someone through the Holy Spirit and guiding and changing them is much more than a new Book of Laws.
Jesus Kingdom (or if you like, New World Order) is not what Baha'is envisage. In fact the idea of the Kingdom of God on earth is something that started in Jesus day and which has been in building ever since (Luke 16:16). The citizens are being collected as the gospel, the Word of God, went out from Zion. (Isa 2:4)
Baha'u'llah wants that Kingdom for Himself of course and wants to sit on Jesus throne, the throne of David.

There is going to be no return of Jesus, so the deception is on the part of the Christian churches that each that Jesus will return.
There can be no fulfillment of the return of Christ prophecies by Jesus unless you can somehow change the plain meaning of the following verses.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

No the deception is with Baha'i who claim the title of The Son of Man for Baha'u'llah when, as I have explained elsewhere, belongs to Jesus in all places Jesus talks about Him. The Son of Man who comes and judges the earth,,,,,,,,,, judgement having been given to the Son of God.
If you want those verses to be interpreted literally then you need to explain why Jesus had not finished His work when He said them, why the disciples did see Him being arrested and on the cross and after the resurrection, why Jesus remained in the world with the disciples for another 40 or so days, why everyone in the world will be able to see Him when He returns.
You do explain all that by denying the resurrection and that Jesus was with His disciples for 40 days, denying to the disciples would not see Him again, denying the places where Jesus is said to return, denying that Jesus had any work to finish on the cross and strengthening His disciples, denying that Jesus would return to earth as the Bible describes.
That's a lot of denying what the Bible says.
All I do is say that Jesus was speaking about His death and going to heaven and that He had finished the work on earth that He had been given to do.
So the risen Lord comes back to complete the work of the Messiah and raise the dead and judge the earth and bring peace as the Bible tells us.
So you use a handful of misplaced interpretations to deny most of the New Testament and the whole Gospel message of Jesus and take away the glory from Jesus and give it to Baha'u'llah, the one who cannot build a Kingdom or do anything else, and has shown that, by not doing anything except say that the Bible passages that talk about these things are wrong and that they mean whatever he tells people they mean.

 

[Kenny]

I used to be a trinity believer myself. When i found out Jesus was not Yhwh it felt like my foundation had crumbled beneath me. What held me together was knowing Jesus was still Jesus. He still lived a perfect human life and gave it for mankind. He was still Gods son. He was still king of Gods Kingdom(until the end comes). Everything was still created through him.

The real bonus of learning the truth was it was the 1st time i could worship God properly and serve Him properly. It has only gotten better since. My whole life changed like never before. It was the first time i learned what Gods will was and therefore could do it. I finally knew and felt that freedom Jesus spoke of. True freedom.

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

No it wouldn’t change my faith...

I also have been set free knowing that The Word, God, became flesh.

 

[Brian2]

Baha'u'llah does not have to change the meaning of any prophecies.
It is Christians who have to change the meaning in order to believe that the same Jesus is going to return.

Acts 1:9-11 is contradicted by the following verses. You insist on believing Acts 1:9-11 but you deny the following verses.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Really, all you have is those verses and you use them to deny everything in the Bible about Jesus and give it all to Baha'u'llah, who fulfills nothing but only claims to be the Christ he is not.
Peter tells us that scoffers would come in the last days and say "Where is the promise of Jesus return?"
Paul tells us that Satan changes to an angel of light and deceives many.
I hope the Lord does not come and find you scoffing and following the teachings of an angel of light.
Anyway, I won't answer any more in this thread and will leave RF now.
I feel called to do other things. I have learned a lot here about stuff and about myself. Thanks for the invite to come here.
See you on the other side,,,,,,,,,,,, as they say.

 

[Truthseeker]

Really, all you have is those verses and you use them to deny everything in the Bible about Jesus and give it all to Baha'u'llah, who fulfills nothing but only claims to be the Christ he is not.
Peter tells us that scoffers would come in the last days and say "Where is the promise of Jesus return?"
Paul tells us that Satan changes to an angel of light and deceives many.
I hope the Lord does not come and find you scoffing and following the teachings of an angel of light.
Anyway, I won't answer any more in this thread and will leave RF now.
I feel called to do other things. I have learned a lot here about stuff and about myself. Thanks for the invite to come here.
See you on the other side,,,,,,,,,,,, as they say.

God speed on your spiritual journey.

 

[Trailblazer]

All those OT prophecies applied to Jesus in God's Word, the New Testament.

No OT prophecies that refer to the Second Coming apply to Jesus. They apply to Baha'u'llah.

The Father and Son living in someone through the Holy Spirit and guiding and changing them is much more than a new Book of Laws.

I did not say that "The Father and Son living in someone through the Holy Spirit and guiding and changing them" is something NEW that Baha'u'llah brought.

Jesus Kingdom (or if you like, New World Order) is not what Baha'is envisage. In fact the idea of the Kingdom of God on earth is something that started in Jesus day and which has been in building ever since (Luke 16:16). The citizens are being collected as the gospel, the Word of God, went out from Zion. (Isa 2:4)

The Kingdom of God on earth is not what Christians envision. It is not Jesus' kingdom.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Baha'u'llah wants that Kingdom for Himself of course and wants to sit on Jesus throne, the throne of David.

Baha'u'llah wanted nothing for Himself. He only wanted to serve God.

“Who can ever believe that this Servant of God hath at any time cherished in His heart a desire for any earthly honor or benefit? The Cause associated with His Name is far above the transitory things of this world. Behold Him, an exile, a victim of tyranny, in this Most Great Prison. His enemies have assailed Him on every side, and will continue to do so till the end of His life. Whatever, therefore, He saith unto you is wholly for the sake of God, that haply the peoples of the earth may cleanse their hearts from the stain of evil desire, may rend its veil asunder, and attain unto the knowledge of the one true God—the most exalted station to which any man can aspire. Their belief or disbelief in My Cause can neither profit nor harm Me. We summon them wholly for the sake of God. He, verily, can afford to dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 85​

It is not Baha'u'llah's kingdom. It is the Kingdom of God that the Baha'is and others will build.

There is no physical throne. The throne of David is only symbolic for power. It is God (the Ancient Beauty) who is ruling, not Baha'u'llah.
Baha'u'llah simply revealed the Most Great Law, the Law of God.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90​

No the deception is with Baha'i who claim the title of The Son of Man for Baha'u'llah when, as I have explained elsewhere, belongs to Jesus in all places Jesus talks about Him. The Son of Man who comes and judges the earth,,,,,,,,,, judgement having been given to the Son of God.

Baha'is do not claim that Baha'u'llah was the Son of Man. He was the return of the Son of Man since He was the return of Christ.

Judgement was given to the Son of God, but only during the Dispensation of Jesus. That Dispensation ended with the coming of Baha'u'llah and now all judgment has been given to Baha'u'llah.

If you want those verses to be interpreted literally then you need to explain why Jesus had not finished His work when He said them, why the disciples did see Him being arrested and on the cross and after the resurrection, why Jesus remained in the world with the disciples for another 40 or so days,

It was right before He was crucified that He said He had finished His work.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

If Jesus rose in a spiritual body after He was buried and remained in the world with the disciples for another 40 or so days that was not part of the "work" He was referring to.

The important part is I am no more in the world ... and I come to thee.

why everyone in the world will be able to see Him when He returns.

They won't ever see Jesus again in this world since He is not coming back to this world.

I am no more in the world ... and I come to thee.

They will see Jesus in heaven.

You do explain all that by denying the resurrection and that Jesus was with His disciples for 40 days, denying to the disciples would not see Him again, denying the places where Jesus is said to return, denying that Jesus had any work to finish on the cross and strengthening His disciples, denying that Jesus would return to earth as the Bible describes.
That's a lot of denying what the Bible says.

The parts I deny are the parts I do not believe happened, like the bodily resurrection, and I don't care what the Bible says.
Other parts you think I am denying I am not denying, since the Bible does not way that Jesus is going to return.

You are denying that Jesus would not return to earth as the Bible describes. That is a serious denial.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

All I do is say that Jesus was speaking about His death and going to heaven and that He had finished the work on earth that He had been given to do.
So the risen Lord comes back to complete the work of the Messiah and raise the dead and judge the earth and bring peace as the Bible tells us.

The Bible does not tell us that Jesus comes back to complete the work of the Messiah and raise the dead and judge the earth and bring peace. You interpret the Bible to mean that.

The Bible tells us that Jesus is no more in the world and we will see Jesus no more, in plain language.

the world seeth me no more;
I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
I am no more in the world

So you use a handful of misplaced interpretations to deny most of the New Testament and the whole Gospel message of Jesus and take away the glory from Jesus and give it to Baha'u'llah, the one who cannot build a Kingdom or do anything else, and has shown that, by not doing anything except say that the Bible passages that talk about these things are wrong and that they mean whatever he tells people they mean.

I take no glory away from Jesus. You want Jesus to have all the glory when all the glory is not His.
Jesus came in the station of the Son, Baha'u'llah came in the station of the Father.

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous… This is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: ‘Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!…’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85​