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For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

Brian2

Veteran Member
We do teach the good news of the scriptures. You just dont agree. Pointing your finger wont change anything.

What gospel of works? Stop your accusations and have a conversation.

I have to point at the teachings of the WT to contrast them with the teachings of the Bible.
The WT teaches that only the 144000 are in the Kingdom and the Kingdom is a Government.
The Bible teaches that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the Kingdom and anyone can be in it and it is the realm over which the King rules.
The WT teaches that a person should come to them and believe and obey them and the Bible teaches to come to Jesus and believe and obey Him.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
If the Kingdom is coming to the earth does that mean that Jesus and the Government of 144000 is going to be on earth or does that mean that the realm over which the King rules will be the earth and you will be in the Kingdom?
For me, I believe I am a member of the Kingdom even now if I believe and do the will of God. But also believe that the Kingdom in it's fullness is coming and the Kingdoms of this earth will become part of the Kingdom of God.
They won't be governing but will be part of the Kingdom anyway.
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.”
Humans' everlasting life on earth was God's initial purpose when he created us. His purpose has never changed. Millions of people will be living on the planet transformed into a paradise in the near future (Psal. 37:11,29; Rev. 7:15-17; 21:3,4; Matt. 5:5).

However, Jehovah and Jesus made an arrangement for a Kingdom from the heavens that was suitable for humans, a group of people who were chosen to live there after having experienced humanity in their own flesh, and thus be able to rule from there. Those "who have been bought from the earth" (Rev. 14:3), the "firstfruits to God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:4), "the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens" (Heb. 12:23) will NEVER AGAIN dwell on earth as human of flesh and bones:

1 Thess. 4:17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

John 14:2 In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be.
... 17:24 Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.

Phil. 3:20 But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Heb. 12:14 Pursue peace with all people and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord. (...) 22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.

Eph. 2:19 So you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
If the Kingdom is coming to the earth does that mean that Jesus and the Government of 144000 is going to be on earth or does that mean that the realm over which the King rules will be the earth and you will be in the Kingdom?
For me, I believe I am a member of the Kingdom even now if I believe and do the will of God. But also believe that the Kingdom in it's fullness is coming and the Kingdoms of this earth will become part of the Kingdom of God.
They won't be governing but will be part of the Kingdom anyway.
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.”

John 14:2

"In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you."

sounds like heaven to me ,not earth
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
God said that the whole of the creation was very good.
To me this means that it was just what God wanted even if not perfect as some might count perfection.
I however do know that the nature of the Son is perfect because it is the exact image of the nature of God.

There were some things about Creation that God appeared to like .. this much is true .. then there were things God Didn't like ... regreted creating these worthless humans .. whose hearts and minds were only Evil .. all the time.

What I don't follow is how you know that the Son is the exact image of the nature of God ? .. not that I disagree .. just don't see how you get to this conclusion .. ? .. and come to think if it I will end up disagreeing but first things first ..
 
If the Kingdom is coming to the earth does that mean that Jesus and the Government of 144000 is going to be on earth or does that mean that the realm over which the King rules will be the earth and you will be in the Kingdom?
They will come to the Earth to cleanse it and destroy all human governments. Being that they are in the spirit realm they will rule over the Earth from heaven.
 
I have to point at the teachings of the WT to contrast them with the teachings of the Bible.
The WT teaches that only the 144000 are in the Kingdom and the Kingdom is a Government.
The Bible teaches that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the Kingdom and anyone can be in it and it is the realm over which the King rules.
The WT teaches that a person should come to them and believe and obey them and the Bible teaches to come to Jesus and believe and obey Him.
They do teach the bible, you insert what isnt true to make your point. They teach more of the bible than any church Ive ever been to.

Not anyone can be in the Kingdom. Only those doing Gods will....

“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will." - Mt 7:21
“Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able."- Lk 13:4

People first establish their faith in Jehovah and Jesus, not the WT. Its only after that faith that they can understand how to see what the faithful and discreet slave is. All you do is assume its out there 'somewhere' for your argument but have zero evidence of it nor know how to follow it since you cant pin it down. We have an Earth wide Congregation that is in complete union and doing Gods will as foretold.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
There were some things about Creation that God appeared to like .. this much is true .. then there were things God Didn't like ... regreted creating these worthless humans .. whose hearts and minds were only Evil .. all the time.

At the creation God said it all was very good. It was later that God was lamenting that He had created humans, because of all the evil we were doing. But that later was after the fall and after humans had gone down hill even further since then.

What I don't follow is how you know that the Son is the exact image of the nature of God ? .. not that I disagree .. just don't see how you get to this conclusion .. ? .. and come to think if it I will end up disagreeing but first things first ..

It's all through faith. Faith in what the Bible tells us about Jesus and that God was pleased with Him and resurrected Him.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
At the creation God said it all was very good. It was later that God was lamenting that He had created humans, because of all the evil we were doing. But that later was after the fall and after humans had gone down hill even further since then.



It's all through faith. Faith in what the Bible tells us about Jesus and that God was pleased with Him and resurrected Him.

I don't think that the Bible tells us that Jesus is the exact nature and image of God .. perhaps I missed it somewhere but such a thing is certainly not stated or implied directly .. and specificly not the "Exact Nature" -- a good term you have chosen this was the big Trinity Claim at the council of Nicea - Constantines major contribution to Christian Doctrine.

So while this is stated in Trinity Doctrine .. "Homoousios" the word you want to study .. but this nature of Jesus it is not in the Bible ... and believe me it has not been for lack of trying .. that would make things so much simpler. For 300 years after Christ's death the early was in hot and heavy debate over the nature of Christ's divinity .. Fully man, Fully God and many different spots in between.

To the Greeks there were two types of Substances .. 1) That which God was made of 2) that which everything else was made of .. humans Trees .. the sun sky planets and the dirt. so to say that Jesus was Homoousios "Of the same Substance" - was to say that Jeus IS - God .. "The Father" - the Big Kahuna himself.

If you go to Church you will have repeated this creed (Nicene) .. every Sunday .. and it is funny how various Church denominations keep changing the word "Substance" in the Phrase "One Substance with the Father" .. some how read "one being with the Father" some say 'One Essense with the Father" its a big dance over this word I tell you true .. but this is not a dance done in the Bible .. this is about man made doctrine.

Having repeated this over and over in Church .. you just associate it with the Bible and/or assume it comes from the Bible .. an easy thing to do. .. but it does not. There is no Trinity formulation found anywhere in the NT .. least not directly. Folks will assume from this and that .. but the consensus position that Bible Dictionaries will tell you is that the Trinity is not there.

So .. so much for faith in the Bible .. I would argue that your position is close to the mark in many aspects .. the big problem is using the word "Exact" - Exact Nature .. I would say that the Bible Tells us that Jesus is "The Logos" .. a phrase mistranslated in John 1 "The Word".
The Logos - in a religious context - means emissary between man and God. So Jesus WAS .. the Word of God .. in effect .. a symbolic representation of God's word.. his mission is to bring God's word to the people ... and through this word .. be put right in the eyes of God and achive "Salvation" That is where you get all God is in me stuff from .. this does not mean that Jesus is The FAther .. .. it means he has a divine spark .. known as the Holy Spirity .. ... and through the Holy Spirit Jeus speaks the word of God ... Jesus is the Conduit between Man and God according to the Bible .... and the early Church Fathers .. but the Conduit is not God .. The Logos is not God .. the message is not the messenger nor the person who sent the message.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I don't think that the Bible tells us that Jesus is the exact nature and image of God .. perhaps I missed it somewhere but such a thing is certainly not stated or implied directly .. and specificly not the "Exact Nature" -- a good term you have chosen this was the big Trinity Claim at the council of Nicea - Constantines major contribution to Christian Doctrine.

This is the closest I can find, (Heb 1:3)
But the idea that Jesus is the Son of God does imply that He has the same nature as His Father.

So while this is stated in Trinity Doctrine .. "Homoousios" the word you want to study .. but this nature of Jesus it is not in the Bible ... and believe me it has not been for lack of trying .. that would make things so much simpler. For 300 years after Christ's death the early was in hot and heavy debate over the nature of Christ's divinity .. Fully man, Fully God and many different spots in between.

Yes there were differences of opinion but the Apostolic Fathers had Jesus as their God and they are the ones who should know. So the Bible should be understood in that light and any seeming contradictions can be worked out. IMO the Bible does say that Jesus was not created, since through Him all things were created.

To the Greeks there were two types of Substances .. 1) That which God was made of 2) that which everything else was made of .. humans Trees .. the sun sky planets and the dirt. so to say that Jesus was Homoousios "Of the same Substance" - was to say that Jeus IS - God .. "The Father" - the Big Kahuna himself.

No, it is to say what the Bible says, that He is the Son of God, and it tells us what type of Son, a not created Son, a Son who comes from His Father.

Having repeated this over and over in Church .. you just associate it with the Bible and/or assume it comes from the Bible .. an easy thing to do. .. but it does not. There is no Trinity formulation found anywhere in the NT .. least not directly. Folks will assume from this and that .. but the consensus position that Bible Dictionaries will tell you is that the Trinity is not there.

An uncreated Son has to be the same substance as His Father. God was all there was after all.
The heretics forced the church to make their formulation so that the position was spelt out and the heretics could not have a different position as say they were part of the real church, as they did before the formulation.
But Arianism was not there from the beginning, it seems to have begun with Arius.

So .. so much for faith in the Bible .. I would argue that your position is close to the mark in many aspects .. the big problem is using the word "Exact" - Exact Nature .. I would say that the Bible Tells us that Jesus is "The Logos" .. a phrase mistranslated in John 1 "The Word".
The Logos - in a religious context - means emissary between man and God. So Jesus WAS .. the Word of God .. in effect .. a symbolic representation of God's word.. his mission is to bring God's word to the people ... and through this word .. be put right in the eyes of God and achive "Salvation" That is where you get all God is in me stuff from .. this does not mean that Jesus is The FAther .. .. it means he has a divine spark .. known as the Holy Spirity .. ... and through the Holy Spirit Jeus speaks the word of God ... Jesus is the Conduit between Man and God according to the Bible .... and the early Church Fathers .. but the Conduit is not God .. The Logos is not God .. the message is not the messenger nor the person who sent the message.

As I said, the early church said Jesus was their God.
God's Word shows who and what He is and is a perfect representation of God.
This seems to be what John 1:1 is saying. The Word who was with the God in the beginning was exactly like the God. Anything the God was, so was the Word.
The Son (Word) comes from the Father and so is the Son and subjects Himself to His Father.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
This is the closest I can find, (Heb 1:3)
But the idea that Jesus is the Son of God does imply that He has the same nature as His Father.



Yes there were differences of opinion but the Apostolic Fathers had Jesus as their God and they are the ones who should know. So the Bible should be understood in that light and any seeming contradictions can be worked out. IMO the Bible does say that Jesus was not created, since through Him all things were created.



No, it is to say what the Bible says, that He is the Son of God, and it tells us what type of Son, a not created Son, a Son who comes from His Father.



An uncreated Son has to be the same substance as His Father. God was all there was after all.
The heretics forced the church to make their formulation so that the position was spelt out and the heretics could not have a different position as say they were part of the real church, as they did before the formulation.
But Arianism was not there from the beginning, it seems to have begun with Arius.



As I said, the early church said Jesus was their God.
God's Word shows who and what He is and is a perfect representation of God.
This seems to be what John 1:1 is saying. The Word who was with the God in the beginning was exactly like the God. Anything the God was, so was the Word.
The Son (Word) comes from the Father and so is the Son and subjects Himself to His Father.

This is discombobulated and poorly argued. "The closest I could find is Hebrews" ? Sorry but the author of Hebrews is not close enough .. needs to come from the Big Guy -- From Jesus .. and No .. the man Jesus being Adopted by God at the age of 30 does not imply same nature .. nor being called the Son .. by any stretch .. Hercules was not Zeus .. NO .. NO ..and NO.

Then you say something really lacking in understanding " Early Church said Jesus was their God" ????? .. That Doesn't make Jesus "The Most High God" The debate is not whether or not Jesus was Divine (althought that was one of the debates back then .. the nature of Christs divinity) This is about Jesus being "The Most High" . Satan is divine .. and has wicked powers .. but Satan is not "The Most High" .. the .. just as the Transformer is not the All Spark. trying to come up with descent analogy.

The Trinity States that Jesus "IS" The Father .. and the HOly Spirit for that matter... dogma that not only is not stated directly in the Bibe .. but contradicted many times over by Jesus .. who always references His GOD .. the one who adopted him - as someone other than himself.

The "Uncreated Son" is made up silliness - and thus doesn't mean that Jesus is same substance.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
the name is not 'YHWH" - or any other names for the God of Moses .. this is Not the God of Jesus .. nor Judaism for that matter but that is another story
If that was true then why would Jesus endorse the law and the prophets when they explicitly refer to YHWH?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Humans' everlasting life on earth was God's initial purpose when he created us. His purpose has never changed. Millions of people will be living on the planet transformed into a paradise in the near future (Psal. 37:11,29; Rev. 7:15-17; 21:3,4; Matt. 5:5).

Sounds right.

However, Jehovah and Jesus made an arrangement for a Kingdom from the heavens that was suitable for humans, a group of people who were chosen to live there after having experienced humanity in their own flesh, and thus be able to rule from there.

I don't know what you mean by a Kingdom from the heavens. But I do know that there is one Kingdom of God and it will include the Kingdoms of the earth.
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.”
You are thinking of Kingdom as meaning Government, but it means the realm over which a King rules. If the King rules over the earth then the earth is part of the Kingdom.
Even the OT saints are in the Kingdom of God.
Luke 13:28,29 “You will see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in God’s kingdom. But you will be left outside. There you will cry and grind your teeth with pain. People will come from the east, west, north, and south. They will sit down at the table in God’s kingdom.

The New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven and the nations will bring stuff into the city and God will be there to dwell with His people and Jesus and all those who will be with Him forever will also be there,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, on the earth, in the New Jerusalem.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Rev 21:9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

Rev 21:22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Where do you get the idea that Jesus and 144000 anointed Christians who are spirits will stay in heaven?
Don't tell me, I know where. So why do you believe it when the Bible clearly contradicts it?

Those "who have been bought from the earth" (Rev. 14:3), the "firstfruits to God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:4), "the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens" (Heb. 12:23) will NEVER AGAIN dwell on earth as human of flesh and bones:

All Christians have been redeemed by Jesus, they have been bought with the blood of Christ and have His Spirit in them.
All Christians are the firstfruits to God and to the Lamb and are blameless because Jesus is our righteousness. (Jer 23:6, 33:16)
All Christians have been enrolled in the heavens. That does not mean they live there, it means that they are in the Lambs book of life in heaven.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are ienrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to lthe sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

And there are spirits of righteous people made perfect in heaven now and were there when Hebrews was written. They will be brought back to earth by Jesus when He returns, so that they can be resurrected.
1Thess 4:14 For isince we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For nthe Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Thess. 4:17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

Being always with the Lord does not mean staying in the air, it means being in the New Jerusalem (for a start) and with immortal bodies we can be in heaven also or anywhere else.

John 14:2 In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be.
... 17:24 Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.

Does not mean that they will be in heaven and never on earth.

Phil. 3:20 But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Jesus Kingdom is not of this world, it is a heavenly Kingdom because that is where it authority comes from. It is not something men have set up, it is something God has set up. We are citizens of that Kingdom and it spreads to the earth and everywhere.

Heb. 12:14 Pursue peace with all people and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord. (...) 22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.

That would have to be a quote from the New World Translation.
All other translations have "and the spirits of the righteous made perfect". But JWs do not believe we have a spirit that is any more than a life force and so they have to say "the spiritual lives of righteous". That looks like a dishonest translation to me.

Eph. 2:19 So you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God

Does that mean that the 144000 live in heaven forever? I can't see it.

Basically I don't see the scriptural arguments for your position but do see good arguments against it.
It looks to me like JWs have been told that certain scriptures mean certain things and even though they don't mean those things, they are in the group now and have to go along with and obey the Governing Body and not rock the boat, or they suffer the consequences.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
If that was true then why would Jesus endorse the law and the prophets when they explicitly refer to YHWH?

Jesus broke the Laws of YHWH .. and taught others to do the same. Let us not conflate "The Commands" .. with Mosaic Law .. Most of the commands existed prior to Mosaic Law .. and Jesus mentions specifically which ones are important in his Most Famous Sermon on the Mount .. which is all about "The Will of The Father" .. having done this will being the path to salvation.

So it looks like the identity of "The Father" is in fact relevant .. despite your previous albeit unknowing denial. We have established that Jesus is a Priest in the Order of MelchiZedek Hebrews .. but 6 and 7 in particular .. which expressly states that when you change the Priestly Order .. you change the Law.
17 For it is declared:

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”[a]
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”[b]
22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

Who is the God of the Order of MellchiZedek ? This "Most High God" of Abraham and MelchiZedek .. a God whose name is not YHWH.. and YHWH tells us this in one of the few passages where this God is speaking directly to Moses. .. aside from fact that it is now the overwhelming Scholarly and Theological consensus that the God of Abraham and the Patriarchs was not YHWH

I will give you a hint .. The "Most High" (El -Elyon ) God of the Canaanites at the time of Abraham was not YHWH.
 
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SDavis

Member
No it would not unravel my world because The thing is a Son of God - is a God.

David said *the Lord* (our Father) said unto *my Lord* (Yahweh /Jesus) sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool ___&___ *Kiss the Son* lest he be angry when his wrath is kindled but a little and you perish in the way.............
Even the Babylonians said "there is a fourth one who has the appearance as the Son of God"


Deuteronomy 8:9 is quite clear --- the people of the Earth were divided according to the number of the Sons of God. Now the newer versions have completely changed the scripture to mean sons of Adam.


The Canaanite religions taught that El divided up the earthlings among his Sons.

Melchizedek was a Canaanite ........ Salem was a Canaanite City until David renamed it Jerusalem (and Salem is still within the name) .......... Elohim (in the single sense) was the name/title of God when he made a covenant with Abraham. And before in the older Bibles _ El, Elohim, Elon, was used quite often. Even at times after he told Moses his name was Yahweh ......... Abraham gave an offering to El the supreme god of the Canaanites. And the Canaanites had a Pantheon of Gods one supreme god and his sons and consort.


There are things I don't consider mythology when it comes down to some beliefs. I believe people had a reason for believing as they did on some things. And God's from the sky creating this world and a mankind is something most cultures in the ancient days had in common. We should remember Jesus said he's going to be coming back from the clouds in the sky. And what are these crafts that are flying around in the sky these days? Are they chariots of God _ are they ezekiel's wheel which contained the cherubim?

I am a Christian and I believe in a higher power - the power that we consider as God. I believe that Jesus is God of the Old Testament and he is God because he is of God. I believe Jesus and the Father are two separate entities one is what we could consider as a clone of the other. And I believe he is a Son of God but not in the same pretense as man fathers a child _ as well as the Only begotten Son of God.

Nope wouldn't unravel me at all
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
All Christians have been redeemed by Jesus, they have been bought with the blood of Christ and have His Spirit in them.
All Christians are the firstfruits to God and to the Lamb and are blameless because Jesus is our righteousness. (Jer 23:6, 33:16)
All Christians have been enrolled in the heavens. That does not mean they live there, it means that they are in the Lambs book of life in heaven.
What does Jerimiah 23 have to do with Christians being the first fruits ? If anyone the Jews would be the first fruits .. even Paul says first the Jews .. then the Gentiles .. what you are saying makes no sense .. nor have all "Christians" been redeemed .. this is simply not true according to Scripture .. Jesus saying Not all who call Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven" .. Tim Tibow can get down on his knees and cry out "Praise Jesus" after he scores a touchdown ... that don't by him the free pass through Judgement that you are trying to sell.

"The Lambs book of Life" -- A vivid dream indeed .. but what difference does it make that the history has already been written .. if you are not allowed to read nor know the contents of the book .. nor whether or not your in it Brother Brian.. So worry not about such book .. thats the business of the time keeper .. and not yours.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
What does Jerimiah 23 have to do with Christians being the first fruits ?

That has to do with Jesus being our righteousness, or even YHWH is our righteousness if you want to read it that way. Our righteousness does not depend on our deeds, it is a gospel of grace and we are the ones who receive that grace.

If anyone the Jews would be the first fruits .. even Paul says first the Jews .. then the Gentiles .. what you are saying makes no sense ..

Paul says that he takes the gospel to the Jews first then the Gentiles in any place he goes. But that doesn't mean that all Jews accept the gospel before all Gentiles.

nor have all "Christians" been redeemed .. this is simply not true according to Scripture .. Jesus saying Not all who call Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven" .. Tim Tibow can get down on his knees and cry out "Praise Jesus" after he scores a touchdown ... that don't by him the free pass through Judgement that you are trying to sell.

It sounds like you are saying that people need to earn their salvation through their works.
We all know that faith without works is dead, but it is faith that works through love (Gel 5:6) and our works are what shows our faith, (James 2:18) not what earn our salvation.
Where does faith come into salvation in your opinion?
What does redemption mean to you and who are the ones who have been redeemed?
Jesus bought us with His death on.
1Cor 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.
1Peter 1:19 You were bought with the precious blood of Christ’s death. He was a pure and perfect sacrificial Lamb.

But of course I understand why you say what you do. It is because the gospel of the JWs is a gospel of works, where you earn your salvation through your works.
Not only that, the Governing Body has decided that most of the New Testament does not apply to all Christians, it applies only to the 144000 anointed class (but even they need to earn their salvation as a JW).
So most JWs are not redeemed or part of the New Covenant, or in the Kingdom of God, or go to heaven ever etc etc.
How is it possible to let a little group of men tell you that the gospel and being born again and receiving the Holy Spirit does not apply to you.
Nowhere in the scriptures is that even hinted at. If it is then show me where.

John 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

So anyone can receive the Spirit of God (and since there is only one Spirit-Eph 4:4- that means that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ.

"The Lambs book of Life" -- A vivid dream indeed .. but what difference does it make that the history has already been written .. if you are not allowed to read nor know the contents of the book .. nor whether or not your in it Brother Brian.. So worry not about such book .. thats the business of the time keeper .. and not yours.

Are you saying that "enrolled in the heavens" (Heb 12:23) is not talking about a book of enrolment where the identity of those who have obtained eternal life is written?
Ah I get it, that is just another verse that the Watch Tower says only applies to the 144000, and it is about them being in heaven forever.
Who gave the Governing Body the authority to make such claims when the scriptures clearly show their claims about the 144000 being the "only" are wrong. (eg John 14:23)
 
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