For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[seekandfind]

According to the scriptures Yhwh is the God of Jesus. If you have another idea it can be shared.

As far as other gods going for "Most High" the scriptures say the god all the earthly kingdoms are in Satan's power. Does Satan think he can match Yhwh in power? No. Satan knows where he came from and his limits but he does want the worship and more doesnt want Yhwh to have it.

 

[Soapy]

According to the scriptures Yhwh is the God of Jesus. If you have another idea it can be shared.

As far as other gods going for "Most High" the scriptures say the god all the earthly kingdoms are in Satan's power. Does Satan think he can match Yhwh in power? No. Satan knows where he came from and his limits but he does want the worship and more doesnt want Yhwh to have it.

Satan desires the same worship as God.

Satan knows that the rulership over creation is reserved for the Son of God who God loves the most. So his battle is against all who would come close to being ‘Sons of God’ in humanity.

Satan is the stewarding Angel over creation at this time but he knows his position has been doomed so hd tries very hard to undermine Jesus Christ, the only man who is currently worthy to be called ‘Son of God’, so that Jesus loses his place as the one who assumes the kingship over creation. If Satan destroys the belief in that son then he will remain in his position - but we know that will not happen so Satan now desires to take to destruction as many as he can from the angels and mankind.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I find it hilarious that the OP is going on about how happy he is that he isn't Trinitarian anymore, and the first non-Trinitarian that replies attacks him. Oh, Abrahamic religions.

 

[Brian2]

Its obvious that to you Jesus is all things. And i get it i used to believe that too until i found out about Yhwh.

You can claim God is serving us but that doesnt make us equal to or above him....which was your point of showing God serves Jesus.

Trinitarians know about YHWH.
Yes we are not equal to God. He serves us for our benefit.
Jesus otoh is the Son and heir of His Father and has all power and authority in heaven and on earth, given to Him by His Father and God, but also it is what belongs to Him as the Son and heir also. (John 16:15) He is not just equal in nature but is equal in all ways to His Father,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, except of course that He is still the Son and His Father is still His Father and Jesus is now still a man as the gospels show that He rose as,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and Daniel 7:13,14 shows also.
Jesus is being glorified for who He is and what He has done, just as He glorified His Father by doing His will and showing us just what the Father is like.

You state Jesus is King forever while the very scripture you posted says otherwise. It clearly states he will be "their prince forever" which backs up the scripture i keep posting.....

Zech 14:9 YHWH will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
Yes YHWH will be King over the whole earth. But do you think that the heir loses the name He inherited, the name above all names, which belongs to Him? Do you think that the one who sits on the throne of David forever has His throne taken away? He is Shilou, the one to whom the throne belongs.
Ezek 37:24 “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever.

It says David will be King, it says David will be Prince.
YHWH is one and His name the only name.
To me it sounds like God is being God through Jesus the King who is also the Prince and is also YHWH. (Too much, you must be shaking your head)
Col 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
1Cor 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
It does not say the Son is not ruling as King it says that the Son has been doing His thing as the heir to the Kingdom and then at the end He gives it all back to His Father and God. He still owns it of course as the Son (John 16:15) but it is not seemly that the Son, a man, stays in control, and is all things to all people, and so the Kingdom is given back to the Father.
Jesus the Son rules as King and Prince and all know the truth and that He is YHWH along with His Father and the fullness of absolute deity dwells in Jesus bodily and there is not the Father here and the Son there, but when we look at the Son we see the Father also.
We see God in the face of Jesus.

"Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father........then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." - 1 Cor 15:24-28

This clearly shows its not Jesus' Kingdom, it is his God's Kingdom. Jesus does rule it for a time but gives it back so "that God(not Jesus) may be all things to everyone."

I know its a tough pill to swallow, lowering Jesus, but it doesnt change who Jesus is or what he did for mankind, it just means he isnt at the level you worship him at. There is One above him and you need to know Him.

"This means everlasting life: thier coming to know you, the only true God, and the one you sent, Jesus Christ." -John 17:3

That Jesus is subject to the Father does not make a scrap of difference to how things will be done. That is how it has been always, the Son is subject to His Father but they are exactly alike and so it makes no difference.
God has sent His Son to become a man and suffer and die for humans in obedience to the Father and God has glorified Him for who and what He really is, YHWH, the Son and heir, who inherits the name YHWH etc, and who owns it anyway.
Then God has arranged things so that the truth is known by all and the heir keeps the inheritance but things go back to the way they were before Jesus became a man anyway.
Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

 

[Brian2]

Why are you so hung up on the Watch Tower?

They, a small group of men, are the source of a lot of wrong teaching but have raised themselves up to be the only voice of God in this world.

 

[Brian2]

According to the scriptures Yhwh is the God of Jesus. If you have another idea it can be shared.

Jesus was not a servant before He took the form of a servant and became a man. (Phil 2)
Psalm 22:10 tells me, and should tell anyone else who agrees that there was a pre human Jesus who lived before becoming a man,,,,,,,,,,,, that the Father became the God of the Son when He became a man.
Jesus remains a man and so His Father remains His God.
But that does not detract from who Jesus is as the Son of God, equal in nature to His Father, YHWH.

As far as other gods going for "Most High" the scriptures say the god all the earthly kingdoms are in Satan's power. Does Satan think he can match Yhwh in power? No. Satan knows where he came from and his limits but he does want the worship and more doesnt want Yhwh to have it.

The Word was never another "god".
The Word was never the Father.
But the Word was always YHWH.
That highness of Jesus is something that the Jews stumbled over and killed Him for.
Then they could also say that if He was the Messiah He would not have been crucified.

 

[Muffled]

Jehovah is perfect in every way,has no equal . every thing he would do would also be perfect. but that could not happen using imperfect materials . a lesser god (IE Jesus) given the authority to do the work Jehovah God wanted done could

I believe there is no such thing as a lesser God ; there is only God.

 

[Muffled]

They, a small group of men, are the source of a lot of wrong teaching but have raised themselves up to be the only voice of God in this world.

I believe ROTFLMAO fits here.

 

[Muffled]

According to the scriptures Yhwh is the God of Jesus. If you have another idea it can be shared.

As far as other gods going for "Most High" the scriptures say the god all the earthly kingdoms are in Satan's power. Does Satan think he can match Yhwh in power? No. Satan knows where he came from and his limits but he does want the worship and more doesnt want Yhwh to have it.

I believe that is true. God would not have any other god before Him.

 

[seekandfind]

Trinitarians know about YHWH.
Yes we are not equal to God. He serves us for our benefit.
Jesus otoh is the Son and heir of His Father and has all power and authority in heaven and on earth, given to Him by His Father and God, but also it is what belongs to Him as the Son and heir also. (John 16:15)

Your posts show you dont know who Yhwh is as you clearly think he is Jesus or equal to him.

Power and authority was GIVEN to him. He didnt give it to himself because Yhwh gave it to him.

Its crazy you keep showing they are different beings yet refuse to ackowledge it.

 

[seekandfind]

I believe there is no such thing as a lesser God ; there is only God.

Who is this?

2Cor 4:4
"among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers..."

 

[seekandfind]

He still owns it of course as the Son (John 16:15) but it is not seemly that the Son, a man, stays in control, and is all things to all people, and so the Kingdom is given back to the Father.

You are talking around bible truths to make your views fit.
Jesus is no longer a man.
"But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom" 1 Cor15:50
He is a spirit. Humans are on earth, spirits are in heaven.
You act like him being a man is the reason Jesus cant keep the control when the reason is that the Christ is a temporary ruler.

The Kingdom only exists to sanctify Gods name because of wrong-doing...it is coming to judge the wicked and repair what unrighteousness has ruined. Without Satan or Adams disobidience there would have been no need for the kingdom. Understanding the truth about its purpose helps put everything about it into place.

An example: Jesus is ruling and will judge because his judgments cant be pleaded against as an unfair judgement, where as a perfect God could be seen as unfair because God cant do wrong- Jesus could have. But Jesus will judge humans and its fair because he lived as one so there could be no pleas of"thats unfair you dont know what its like"....
"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tested in all respects as we have, but without sin." Heb 4:15
So too who will help him judge mankind? Others who can relate to humans because they too were human.....

"and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel." Lk 22:29-30

"And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years." Rev 20:4

We see Gods Kingdom and those ruling have a specific purpose. One that only exists because of rebelliousness. After it has done its job all things- power and authority- go back to Yhwh. Jesus wont have, need, or want them. His Father will be all things to everyone....

"But when all things will have been subjected to him(Jesus), then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God(Yhwh- Jesus' God and Father) may be all things to everyone."


*Also thats why it fair for Jesus to judge rebellious angels...because he is an angel but without ever disobeying. Yes, i know thats too far for you to grasp right now.

 

[seekandfind]

That Jesus is subject to the Father does not make a scrap of difference to how things will be done.

I didnt claim it changes how things get played out.

Your claim was Jesus is equal which he clearly isnt.

 

[seekandfind]

They, a small group of men, are the source of a lot of wrong teaching but have raised themselves up to be the only voice of God in this world.

They admit when they are wrong unlike other humans.

They are the "faithfull and dicreet slave". What is it and its purpose according to Jesus?

Mt 24
“45 Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so! 47 Truly I say to you, he will appoint him over all his belongings."


This slave is what Jesus uses to give spiritual food(bible truths) to his domestics(Jesus followers- vs 45) until the master returns(Jesus brings Gods Kingdom- vs 46). Then that slave will be appointed(rule as kings, priests and judges- vs 47) over all his(Jesus') belongings.

Kings, priests and judges

Rev 5: 10 "and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Rev 20: 4"And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years."

 

[seekandfind]

Jesus was not a servant before He took the form of a servant and became a man. (Phil 2)
Psalm 22:10 tells me, and should tell anyone else who agrees that there was a pre human Jesus who lived before becoming a man,,,,,,,,,,,, that the Father became the God of the Son when He became a man.
Jesus remains a man and so His Father remains His God.
But that does not detract from who Jesus is as the Son of God, equal in nature to His Father, YHWH.



The Word was never another "god".
The Word was never the Father.
But the Word was always YHWH.
That highness of Jesus is something that the Jews stumbled over and killed Him for.
Then they could also say that if He was the Messiah He would not have been crucified.

 

[seekandfind]

Jesus was not a servant before He took the form of a servant and became a man. (Phil 2)
Psalm 22:10 tells me, and should tell anyone else who agrees that there was a pre human Jesus who lived before becoming a man,,,,,,,,,,,, that the Father became the God of the Son when He became a man.
Jesus remains a man and so His Father remains His God.
But that does not detract from who Jesus is as the Son of God, equal in nature to His Father, YHWH.



The Word was never another "god".
The Word was never the Father.
But the Word was always YHWH.
That highness of Jesus is something that the Jews stumbled over and killed Him for.
Then they could also say that if He was the Messiah He would not have been crucified.

You already said God serves humans. Now you are conflicting with your own statements. He serves but isnt a servant but is.

Jesus has always been a servant even before his human state. Phil 2 is refering to him bing a servant as a human.

Again Jesus didnt remain a man... he went to heaven- humans dont go there only spirits. Meaning if you are in heaven and were a human prior you arent one anymore. Humans are flesh, bones, blood, organs, nervous systems, etc.

 

[Brian2]

Your posts show you dont know who Yhwh is as you clearly think he is Jesus or equal to him.

Power and authority was GIVEN to him. He didnt give it to himself because Yhwh gave it to him.

Its crazy you keep showing they are different beings yet refuse to ackowledge it.

Don't you know that the trinity teaching is what the Bible teaches, that the Father and the Son are different persons.
But you seem to keep ignoring that the Son owns everything that the Father has (John 16:15) and has inherited it all, including His name.
You also ignore that OT quotes attributed to Jesus in the NT show that Jesus is YHWH.
That does not mean they are the same person, it means that there is more than one person in the one God, YHWH.

 

[Brian2]

You are talking around bible truths to make your views fit.
Jesus is no longer a man.
"But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom" 1 Cor15:50
He is a spirit. Humans are on earth, spirits are in heaven.
You act like him being a man is the reason Jesus cant keep the control when the reason is that the Christ is a temporary ruler.

No, I said, and demonstrated that Jesus does rule forever.
BUT Jesus is not the one in charge (so to speak) forever, as He is now, because He is the Son for a start and His Father is His Father, and to His Father, the Son is subject. The Son becomes officially subject to His Father even if now the Son follows the will of His Father.
The Son has always been subject to His Father in one way or another, from eternity, and now that the Son is a man, the one man who is the mediator between God and men, who always lives to make intercession (Heb 7:25) it is even more fitting that the Kingdom is given back to the Father and Jesus is subject to His God, and His Father, even while Jesus rules on forever,,,,,,,,,,,,,, as the scriptures tell us.

The Kingdom only exists to sanctify Gods name because of wrong-doing...it is coming to judge the wicked and repair what unrighteousness has ruined. Without Satan or Adams disobidience there would have been no need for the kingdom. Understanding the truth about its purpose helps put everything about it into place.

Ahh, now I remember, JWs are told that the Kingdom of God is a group of 144,000 men, the anointed class, led by Jesus, who are the Government. But I don't know what JWs think that this Government rules over if not the Kingdom of God.

An example: Jesus is ruling and will judge because his judgments cant be pleaded against as an unfair judgement, where as a perfect God could be seen as unfair because God cant do wrong- Jesus could have. But Jesus will judge humans and its fair because he lived as one so there could be no pleas of"thats unfair you dont know what its like"....
"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tested in all respects as we have, but without sin." Heb 4:15
So too who will help him judge mankind? Others who can relate to humans because they too were human.....

"and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel." Lk 22:29-30

"And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years." Rev 20:4

We see Gods Kingdom and those ruling have a specific purpose. One that only exists because of rebelliousness. After it has done its job all things- power and authority- go back to Yhwh. Jesus wont have, need, or want them. His Father will be all things to everyone....

"But when all things will have been subjected to him(Jesus), then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God(Yhwh- Jesus' God and Father) may be all things to everyone."


*Also thats why it fair for Jesus to judge rebellious angels...because he is an angel but without ever disobeying. Yes, i know thats too far for you to grasp right now.

Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
Rev 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

The way I see it, the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel are anointed after the opening of the 6th seal.

The way I see it, even the Old Testament saints are in the Kingdom of God.

Luke 13:27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ 28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. 29 And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God.

 

[Brian2]

I didnt claim it changes how things get played out.

Your claim was Jesus is equal which he clearly isnt.

My claim is that Jesus has the same nature as His Father but is the Son who is subject to His Father.
Equal in nature, and Jesus owns all that belongs to His Father (John 16:15) and as the Son who is exactly like His Father, He waits for the inheritance, which is His, to be bestowed on Him, and does not demand it and does not usurp His Father's authority. (Phil 2)
Luke 22:29 And I bestow on you a kingdom, just as My Father has bestowed one on Me,

Bestow, bequeathe, the Kingdom is given to Jesus and Jesus gives the Kingdom to us also, as fellow heirs.
All Christians are fellow heirs.
As a Christian you are a child of God, your Father, and a fellow heir with Christ.


Romans 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus[d] from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Ephesians 4: 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;…

 

[Brian2]

They admit when they are wrong unlike other humans.

It is indeed strange for people who have clearly not been led by the Spirit of God in their teachings, (because they have changed those teachings over the years) can twist it around and claim that as a reason why they are the only voice of God in this age.

They are the "faithfull and dicreet slave". What is it and its purpose according to Jesus?

Mt 24
“45 Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so! 47 Truly I say to you, he will appoint him over all his belongings."

But they clearly have not given the domestics their food at the proper time. This is why they have had to alter their teachings, and on end times prophecies also as well as other teachings.
And how does anyone know whether what they have changed teachings to is any better than what they have been changed from?

This slave is what Jesus uses to give spiritual food(bible truths) to his domestics(Jesus followers- vs 45) until the master returns(Jesus brings Gods Kingdom- vs 46). Then that slave will be appointed(rule as kings, priests and judges- vs 47) over all his(Jesus') belongings.

Kings, priests and judges

Rev 5: 10 "and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Rev 20: 4"And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years."

Well that is the JW interpretation of various verses and you believe the JW interpretation because the WT tells you it is correct and if you leave them it will not be good for you.