For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[Truthseeker]

George Townshend lost His faith in Jesus and so it is understandable that He did not go on believing the Bible and Christian faith and who Jesus is.

He never lost his faith in Jesus. He just didn't see Jesus as you do.

 

[Truthseeker]

Problem is when the Scriptures plainly say that Jesus has flesh and bones after He rose from the dead like this verse, instead of saying yes that’s exactly right. The comments are well man wrote that or some other reason to justify their own or someone else’s false view of Jesus Christ. People are better off to say no I don’t believe the Bible.
Instead go on and on sharing the false teaching calling themselves Bible believers. Well, no you’re not.
”But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. And He took it and ate in their presence.“
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24‬:‭37‬-‭43‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Each Gospel has significant different differences in the accounts of the Resurrection of of Jesus, some contradictory. I don't know what happened in any detail about what happened concerning that resurrection when I look at the Gospels.

 

[Truthseeker]

Not sure why people cannot grasp that God is One Echad, and expresses Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
How else could He stay on the throne, come to the earth and redeem mankind, fill all in all?
All makes sense and easy to understand

Not as easy to understand as the Baha'i view on this. Jesus in the Baha'i view was a perfect reflection of God, and thus He could say with all truth "If you have seen me you've seen the Father" and at the same time "God is greater than I". Being a perfect reflection of God is not the same as being God or as great as God, because God transcends the spiritual attributes that Jesus had, He had a "essence" that transcends the Universe.

 

[Truthseeker]

The Holy Spirit is a person as well, not an it.

How could the Holy Spirit be a person if the Holy Spirit has no body.

 

[shunyadragon]

More on the Jewish belief in the Messiah"

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pre-exile Jewish eschatology (8th–6th cent. BCE)​

Main articles: Jewish eschatology and Babylonian captivity
The roots of Jewish eschatology are to be found in the pre-exile prophets, including Isaiah and Jeremiah, and the exile prophets Ezekiel and Deutero-Isaiah.[web 4] The main tenets of Jewish eschatology are the following, in no particular order, elaborated in the books of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel:[web 5]

• End of world (before everything as follows).
• God redeems the Jewish people from the captivity that began during the Babylonian Exile, in a new Exodus
• God returns the Jewish people to the Land of Israel
• God restores the House of David and the Temple in Jerusalem
• God creates a regent from the House of David (i.e. the Jewish Messiah) to lead the Jewish people and the world and usher in an age of justice and peace
• All nations recognize that the God of Israel is the only true God
• God resurrects the dead
• God creates a new heaven and a new earth

Second Temple period (516 BCE–70 CE)​

Main articles: Second Temple period and Second Temple Judaism
Early in the Second Temple period hopes for a better future are described in the Jewish scriptures.[web 1] After the return from the Babylonian exile, the Persian king Cyrus the Great was called "messiah" in Isaiah, due to his role in the return of the Jewish exiles.[web 1]

A number of messianic ideas developed during the later Second Temple period, ranging from this-worldly, political expectations, to apocalyptic expectations of an endtime in which the dead would be resurrected and the Kingdom of Heaven would be established on earth.[web 1] The Messiah might be a kingly "Son of David," or a more heavenly "Son of Man", but "Messianism became increasingly eschatological, and eschatology was decisively influenced by apocalypticism", while "messianic expectations became increasingly focused on the figure of an individual savior."[web 1] According to Zwi Werblowsky, "the Messiah no longer symbolized the coming of the new age, but he was somehow supposed to bring it about." The "Lord's anointed" thus became the "savior and redeemer" and the focus of more intense expectations and doctrines."[web 1] Messianic ideas developed both by new interpretations (pesher, midrash) of the Jewish scriptures, but also by visionary revelations.

 

[Brian2]

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

If we believe the Bible then we interpret it so that there is no contradiction.
With how you interpret John 14:19, John 17:11 and John 16:10 there is contradiction with Acts 1:9-11 and other passages.
We cannot explain Acts 1:9-11 and the other passages without saying that the Bible is wrong.
We can explain the John 14,16,17 passages simply by realising that Jesus was just saying that He was going to die and go to heaven and nobody would be able to see Him.
Jesus cannot have meant that His disciples never see Him again (as John 16:10 suggests with your interpretation) because we are told in other passages that not only the disciples but also everyone would see Him when He returns.

 

[shunyadragon]

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

If we believe the Bible then we interpret it so that there is no contradiction.
With how you interpret John 14:19, John 17:11 and John 16:10 there is contradiction with Acts 1:9-11 and other passages.
We cannot explain Acts 1:9-11 and the other passages without saying that the Bible is wrong.
We can explain the John 14,16,17 passages simply by realising that Jesus was just saying that He was going to die and go to heaven and nobody would be able to see Him.
Jesus cannot have meant that His disciples never see Him again (as John 16:10 suggests with your interpretation) because we are told in other passages that not only the disciples but also everyone would see Him when He returns.

I believe the Resurrection of Jesus was a spiritual Resurrection.

 

[Brian2]

You believe part of the Bible but not all of it, as you say.
When it comes to the NT where Jesus tells us He is not going to return to this world you double down on denying those scriptures.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more

What are those scriptures?

Those scriptures are you cherrypicking verses and ignoring the context and ignoring that many other passages tell us that Jesus would return.
You don't care if you make unanswerable contradictions by your interpretations. The truth of the whole Bible means nothing to you, as long as you can cherry pick verses, the rest of the Bible can be thrown into the rubbish bin.

Rev 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

 

[shunyadragon]

Those scriptures are you cherrypicking verses and ignoring the context and ignoring that many other passages tell us that Jesus would return.
You don't care if you make unanswerable contradictions by your interpretations. The truth of the whole Bible means nothing to you, as long as you can cherry pick verses, the rest of the Bible can be thrown into the rubbish bin.

Rev 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

I believe the jewish understanding of Messianic prophecies is more in touch with reality than the supernatural extravaganza of literal interpretations does not reflect reality of the Torah Jewish perspective. The Baha'i perspective does reflect the reality of the prophecies for the second Messiah, but of course it is denied by most Jews, Christians and Muslims.

The Edict of Toleration declaration of allowing Jews to return to Palestine beginning the establishment of the fulfillment of restoration of the Jewish homeland was issued in 1844.

 

[Brian2]

He did come more than once, just not in the way you expected.

The same Jesus did not return and so the Bible shows that Baha'u'llah is a false Christ, and there are many of those.
Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

 

[Brian2]

He never lost his faith in Jesus. He just didn't see Jesus as you do.

He went to a false Christ, a different Jesus, and started attacking the Bible and the gospel.

 

[Brian2]

I believe the Resurrection of Jesus was a spiritual Resurrection.

A denial of the Bible for the sake of the false Christ.
It is interesting that false Christs can come and cast what seems like a spell on people and say "Don't believe what the Bible says and what it says about the return of Christ. I am the return of Christ and so I know what the Bible means and what the scriptures about me mean, so believe me and ignore the Bible if it contradicts what I tell you".

 

[shunyadragon]

A denial of the Bible for the sake of the false Christ.
It is interesting that false Christs can come and cast what seems like a spell on people and say "Don't believe what the Bible says and what it says about the return of Christ. I am the return of Christ and so I know what the Bible means and what the scriptures about me mean, so believe me and ignore the Bible if it contradicts what I tell you".

That is how the Jews consider Jesus Christ. It is their Book in their language, and ah . . . their prophecies.

 

[Brian2]

Yes I believe Jesus fulfilled some of the prophecies, and yes Baha'u'llah fulfilled some, but my problem is the one sided demands of absolute 'Truth' you and other Christians believe that if you do not believe their interpretations you do not believe in the Bible.

Baha'u'llah did not fulfil any prophecies of the return of Jesus.
Baha'i is not another Christian faith with slight variation in interpretation, it is anti Christ religion which denies the Bible and real Jesus and the gospel. It is just another voice that brings confusion.

Interesting that there are no witness recorded events as claimed nor seeing Jesus as physically Resurrected and meeting people for 40 days. There is not even one scrap of a record of JEsus during his life time.

The apostles were witnesses of the risen Jesus and to the life of Jesus and they are intimately associated with the gospels.

Even though I believe in God I am a factual realist and skeptic of all things concerning the subjective nature of religious belief. There is absolutely nothing objectively factually backed up by recorded witnesses at the time with original documents to confirm religious beliefs concerning Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam or any other ancient religion.

Jesus has histories of what He did etc written very close to His death by people who should know.
There no evidence for Baha'i except a bunch of writings inspired in Baha'u'llah by spirits and which contradict the Bible records.
2Cor 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their actions.…

 

[Brian2]

George Townsend found a more universal belief that is consistent with the nature of our physical existence and the universality of the relationship between God and ALL the history of humanity, and not the egocentric contradictory and conflicting claims of any one ancient belief of the many different religions and churches claiming they are the only 'True' belief system from the fallible human perspective.

You and other Christians face severe contradictions with the actual history, archaeology and science when taken as a whole and not selectively used to justify an agenda.

This is the reality of our existence whether you believe it or not,.

I see the problems you speak about, because I argue about them all the time on this forum, but I believe the Bible.

 

[shunyadragon]

I see the problems you speak about, because I argue about them all the time on this forum, but I believe the Bible.

Including the Hebrew and how the Jews interpret the Torah?

Just saying one believes in the Bible does answer very many questions. Many people who believe in the Bible do not share your interpretation, because of the subjective conflicting and variable nature of prophecy.

Note this fulfilment of prophecy by the Baha'i Revelation

The Edict of Toleration declaration of allowing Jews to return to Palestine beginning the establishment of the fulfillment of restoration of the Jewish homeland was issued in 1844.

 

[Brian2]

That is how the Jews consider Jesus Christ. It is their Book in their language, and ah . . . their prophecies.

The difference is that Christians don't deny the Tanakh but Baha'i says that big slabs of the Bible are just not true.
Christians can legitimately see Jesus prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures, Baha'is have to deny the prophecies about the return of Jesus to fit Baha'u'llah in there,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and I have shown you some,,,,,,,,,,,,,, esp the Acts 1:9-11 prophecy which Baha'is have to say is nonsense.

 

[shunyadragon]

The difference is that Christians don't deny the Tanakh but Baha'i says that big slabs of the Bible are just not true.
Christians can legitimately see Jesus prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures, Baha'is have to deny the prophecies about the return of Jesus to fit Baha'u'llah in there,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and I have shown you some,,,,,,,,,,,,,, esp the Acts 1:9-11 prophecy which Baha'is have to say is nonsense.

Did you miss this addition:

Note this fulfilment of prophecy by the Baha'i Revelation

The Edict of Toleration declaration of allowing Jews to return to Palestine beginning the establishment of the fulfillment of restoration of the Jewish homeland was issued in 1844.

 

[Brian2]

Including the Hebrew and how the Jews interpret the Torah?

I don't understand the Hebrew but many Christians and esp Bible translators do.
A problem is that Christians accept older manuscripts than the Jews do, and use them for translation at times.

 

[Brian2]

The Edict of Toleration declaration of allowing Jews to return to Palestine beginning the establishment of the fulfillment of restoration of the Jewish homeland was issued in 1844.

And yet according to the New Testament Baha'u'llah cannot be the return of Jesus because he is not the same Jesus and did not come in the way the Bible tells us he would.
If he is not the return of Jesus, he is not the return of Jesus and any other things, conincidences, interpretations mean nothing.