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For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Oh you want to stick with Scripture only.

Okay.

Did Jesus say 'If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father'?

Yes or no?

If you refuse to answer, you are admitting that your premise is faulty.
I have no problem answering that and I have already answered it here over a dozen times.
Jesus said he that hath seen me hath seen the Father (John 14:9) because Jesus was a mirror image of His Father.

Please note that Colossians 1:15 says that God is invisible.
Jesus was visible so that is one way we know that Jesus was not God.
God became visible in Jesus and then Jesus manifested God.
Jesus was a perfect reflection of God, a mirror image of God, but not God incarnate.

Colossians 1

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 14

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.


The Father is in the Son because Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God was visible and manifest in Jesus, and that is why Jesus was a Manifestation of God.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

“I and my Father are one”
(John 10:30) means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

Jesus was a Manifestation of God but Jesus was also a Servant of God, and that is why Jesus said to the Jews:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


Jesus was able to do the works of the Father because the Father was in Him. Jesus said He could do nothing by Himself.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jesus clearly differentiated Himself from the Father in the verses above and that alone means that Jesus could not be God.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But really what you want to do is to say that "therefore Baha'i interpretation might be right".
But no, once so called interpretation of the Bible involves denying the truth of scripture and claiming that a meaning diametically opposite the plain meaning of a passage might be correct, that is not really interpretation, it's just replacing what the Bible says with Baha'i teachings.
The Baha'i interpretation does not deny the truth of scripture.
It is the Christian interpretation that denies the truth of scripture, since it denies the plain meaning of verses.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


Whether or not Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ or not is a separate matter. Putting that aside for the moment, the Old Testament is clear about a Messiah coming to do specific things related to the coming of the kingdom of God on earth. We know it will not be Jesus doing those things, unless Jesus lied in the verses cited above, so it has to be another person.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
For all we know the heaven where Jesus ascended to is all around us now and we just cannot see it.
If that's so, he would not have to ascend to it. The trouble with Christians like you is that your understanding is stuck in the 2nd century.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Historians have been marvelling at how reliable and accurate Luke has been as a historical writer.
As to the accuracy of Gospel writers in general, there are many different details on Jesus' resurrection some of which contradict each other. So who is accurate? Is Luke accurate, is it Matthew, is it mark, or is it John? Or is it none?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Jesus said that He would come back and get His disciples, just as 1Thess 4:13-18 shows us. What is the problem except that you don't want to believe what it says.
But that is not what it says, it is only what you believe it says, what you interpret it to mean.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
New International Version

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.


Baha'u'llah was the Lord of hosts who came down from heaven with a loud command.

“The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn nigh unto God have been able to subdue and conquer the citadels of the hearts of men.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 272
The dead in Christ will rise verse means that those who are spiritually dead because they do not believe in Jesus will be the first to rise to spiritual life, because Baha'u'llah will remind them of all that Jesus had said.

In John 14:26, Jesus said, “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things and will bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
Jesus will come back and bring the souls of the dead Christians back and resurrect them into their resurrection bodies.
You have a different teaching that you want to impose on the Bible and deny the plain reading of the Bible.
Unless Jesus lied, or unless the Bible is in error, then Jesus is not coming back to this world.
The plain meaning of the Bible is that Jesus is never coming back to this world. You have yet to address these verses since you cannot face reality.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


If the Bible is in error then there is no reason to believe any of the other verses that you cite. That's how logic works.
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved.

You don't like the real resurrection because it is not a part of Baha'i teaching, so you have to deny what the Bible teaches about it.
The bodily resurrection is superfluous since it serves no purpose at all. Jesus died on the cross so we could be saved. Rising from the dead serves no purpose at all, and it is not necessary for Christianity to be true, which is why not all Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

The bodily resurrection is unrelated to whether Jesus is coming back. Jesus said He was no more in this world.
Baha'u'llah was pierced by chains?,,,,,,,,,,,, hmmm.
Baha'u'llah freed us from our sins by his blood?
Every eye saw Baha'u'llah?
Baha'u'llah came in the clouds?
The world mourned because of Baha'u'llah's coming?
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Baha'u'llah was pierced by heavy chains, and He bore the scars till the end of His life..
Jesus freed us from our sins by his blood.
Every eye will never see see Jesus return since Jesus said He was no more in this world.

Every eye will see Baha'u'llah does not mean that every physical eye will see Baha'u'llah. It means that one day everyone will know who He was.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

Coming in the clouds does not mean coming in the clouds in the sky. It is figurative, not literal.
Baha'ullah came in the clouds because the judgment of people was clouded when He appeared.

Son of man coming with the clouds means that the return of Christ will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

In other words, the judgment of most people was clouded when Christ returned and it is still clouded for most people.

One thing that clouds the judgment of Christians is their desire for the same Jesus to return to earth.

Everyone on earth will wail (not mourn) because of Baha'u'llah.

wail: a prolonged high-pitched cry of pain, grief, or anger.
Definitions from Oxford Languages
Interestingly you know that John 14:19 and John 16:10 have other simple explanations which do not make other passages into contradictions.
What are those simple explanations?
But the integrity of the Bible is not worth preserving for a follower of Baha'i even though I can see that you do try in your own way to preserve it,,,,,,,,,,,,, even though in reality that is not possible for a follower of Baha'i.
But the integrity of the Bible is not worth preserving for a Christian even though I can see that you do try in your own way to preserve it,
even though in reality that is not possible to believe the same Jesus is going to return to earth, since Jesus said He was no more in this world and Jesus never promised to return to earth, not even once in the entire New Testament.
So John wanted Jesus to come even though John know that Jesus would never come back to earth.

Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
John did not know that Jesus would never return to earth.. Otherwise John would not have beckoned Jesus to return.
We cannot assume that John was aware of everything Jesus said in the New Testament.
John believed with certainty that Jesus was going to return to earth. So what? A belief does not make anything true.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
There seems to by one thing that there is poor evidence for, the census at the time of Jesus birth, so those who like attacking the reliability of Luke and the Bible use that. (I don't know of other places he is said to have made a mistake)
The Census of Quirinius was a census of the Roman province of Judaea taken in 6 CE, upon its formation, by the governor of Roman Syria, Publius Sulpicius Quirinius. The census triggered a revolt of Jewish extremists (called Zealots) led by Judas of Galilee.

The Gospel of Luke uses the census to date the birth of Jesus, which the Gospel of Matthew places in the time of Herod the Great (who died between 5 BCE and 1 CE)...

Its author seems to have invoked the census as Joseph and Mary's motivation for departing "their own city"[8] of Nazareth, Galilee, for Bethlehem.

Census of Quirinius - Wikipedia

Personally I go with Matthew. When I look at Mathew, it says this:

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
Matthew, "The Gospel of Matthew" 2:1

Before there was no story of Mary and Joseph traveling from Nazareth to Bethlehem. It is my opinion that that they had been in Bethlehem all along. As the Wikipedia says the census was just an excuse to get them from Nazareth. Luke made the mistake that Mary and Joseph had traveled from there and later when they fled from Bethlehem they had gone back to their original home.

I commend you for the honesty of bringing up that census.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The trouble with Christians like you is that your understanding is stuck in the 2nd century.
That is a good point I had never thought of before. We are now living in the 21st century so we can now understand what could not be understood in the 2nd century, but Christians are stuck with the understanding they have since that is what the church teaches. :(
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yep that's the way Christian beliefs happen.
You may not understand this, but for a Christian that is a better way to find the truth than to listen to what Baha'u'llah says is the truth.
Of course I understand that Christians believe that slapping verses together and interpreting them to mean what they don't say is a better way to find the truth than to listen to what Baha'u'llah says is the truth.

Baha'is believe that reading and interpreting the verses in context is a better way to find the truth about the Bible.
Baha'is believe that the best way to find 'the whole truth' is to listen to what Baha'u'llah says is the truth.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We start off with the idea that Jesus rose bodily from the dead, as the gospels stories tell us. Then we have the disciples and Jesus (in His resurrection body presumably) ascending in front of His disciples and being hidden by cloud.
It's not complicated really. Just read it slowly and think about it as you do, I'm sure you will be able to see it. Give it a go.

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
I see what Christians believe and why they believe it, but I don't think that belief has any basis in reality. Bodies do not float up into the sky, defying gravity.

As @Truthseeker said, that belief is based upon a 2nd century understanding of the Bible. We are able to know more now, in the 21st century.
So as a Baha'i you have to interpret verses so that they contradict other verses,,,,, and you have to do that if you want the Bible not to disagree with Baha'u'llah.
That is because Baha'u'llah disagrees with the Bible.
So as a Christian you have to interpret verses so that they contradict other verses and you have to do that if you want the Bible not to disagree with the church teachings.

Baha'u'llah does not disagree with the Bible. Baha'u'llah only disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible, since He knew that He was the return of Christ.

I wonder how many people on this forum agree with your interpretation of Acts 1:9-11.
Surely the reason they would disagree with your interpretation is not only because they are Baha'is since there are only a few Baha'is on this forum. I'll bet that not all Christians agree with your interpretation. In order to find out I am going to post a new thread about these verses.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
As to the accuracy of Gospel writers in general, there are many different details on Jesus' resurrection some of which contradict each other. So who is accurate? Is Luke accurate, is it Matthew, is it mark, or is it John? Or is it none?

When compared, there is more agreement than contradiction. Many people say that small disagreements between witnesses actually show the stories were witness accounts and not made up.
But of course Baha'i's want to say none of the stories are accurate, and that is the fruit of Baha'u'llah, the false prophet.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
I wonder how many people on this forum agree with your interpretation of Acts 1:9-11.
Surely the reason they would disagree with your interpretation is not only because they are Baha'is since there are only a few Baha'is on this forum. I'll bet that not all Christians agree with your interpretation. In order to find out I am going to post a new thread about these verses.
Good idea.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The Census of Quirinius was a census of the Roman province of Judaea taken in 6 CE, upon its formation, by the governor of Roman Syria, Publius Sulpicius Quirinius. The census triggered a revolt of Jewish extremists (called Zealots) led by Judas of Galilee.

The Gospel of Luke uses the census to date the birth of Jesus, which the Gospel of Matthew places in the time of Herod the Great (who died between 5 BCE and 1 CE)...

Its author seems to have invoked the census as Joseph and Mary's motivation for departing "their own city"[8] of Nazareth, Galilee, for Bethlehem.

Census of Quirinius - Wikipedia

Personally I go with Matthew. When I look at Mathew, it says this:

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
Matthew, "The Gospel of Matthew" 2:1

Before there was no story of Mary and Joseph traveling from Nazareth to Bethlehem. It is my opinion that that they had been in Bethlehem all along. As the Wikipedia says the census was just an excuse to get them from Nazareth. Luke made the mistake that Mary and Joseph had traveled from there and later when they fled from Bethlehem they had gone back to their original home.

I commend you for the honesty of bringing up that census.

Personally, considering other things that Luke has been accurate with and which have surprised modern historians, I think that Luke knew more about what went on with the censuses in that time than modern historians know.
An early census in the time of Herod cannot be 100% ruled out and that Quirinius was in some governing role at that time cannot be ruled out.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
If that's so, he would not have to ascend to it. The trouble with Christians like you is that your understanding is stuck in the 2nd century.

It could be just above the clouds.:)
Do you have a better understanding of where heaven might be in this modern age?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But of course Baha'i's want to say none of the stories are accurate, and that is the fruit of Baha'u'llah, the false prophet.
No, not only the Baha'is say that. Many atheists on this forum have also said that.
A name that comes to mind is @Subduction Zone, but I know other atheists have also said that the resurrection stories are in conflict with each other, implying that none of them are accurate.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It could be just above the clouds.:)
Do you have a better understanding of where heaven might be in this modern age?
Baha'is do not believe that heaven is a physical place. We believe it is another dimension, a spiritual dimension. That is about all we know about it.

Baha'u'llah knew what heaven was like but He did not reveal that to us, and there were reasons why he did not want to reveal it to us.
One reason is because we could not understand it and another reason is because if we knew we would no longer want to remain in this world.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.​
Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.​
As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.”​
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No, not only the Baha'is say that. Many atheists on this forum have also said that.
A name that comes to mind is @Subduction Zone, but I know other atheists have also said that the resurrection stories are in conflict with each other, implying that none of them are accurate.
A parallel reading of them shows them to be inconsistent. From the time of the day of the crucifixion, that day of the crucifixion itself, who went to the tomb, who was seen at the tomb, and other problems. They are not just supposed points of view differences. Bart Ehrman is well known for employing that technique to show the contradictions.


 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I could say the same thing of you, if the criteria of denying the Bible is having a different understanding of the Bible than I do.

My understanding of the Bible is that it tells us the truth.
When I first started looking at Baha'u'llah as a Bible believer, I say this passage and realised that Baha'u'llah was a false Christ and that there was no reason to go any further.
Anything I have heard from Baha'is since has just confirmed what I initially saw, that Baha'is deny the Bible and twist the meaning and that this is a result of what Baha'u'llah taught and Baha'is belief in Baha'u'llah above anything that the Bible tells us.

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
When compared, there is more agreement than contradiction. Many people say that small disagreements between witnesses actually show the stories were witness accounts and not made up.
But of course Baha'i's want to say none of the stories are accurate, and that is the fruit of Baha'u'llah, the false prophet.
28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

28:8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.

28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

28:10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

28:11 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.

28:12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, 28:13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.

28:14 And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.

28:15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
(King James Bible, Matthew)


20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
(King James Bible, John)

In the first account in Matthew, the disciples were directed to Galilee, where Jesus met them on a mountain. In the second, Jesus met them in a room. Was there a room in the mountain? They were not directed anywhere in the second one. He came to meet them where they were.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Personally, considering other things that Luke has been accurate with and which have surprised modern historians, I think that Luke knew more about what went on with the censuses in that time than modern historians know.
An early census in the time of Herod cannot be 100% ruled out and that Quirinius was in some governing role at that time cannot be ruled out.
You have your head in the sand, in my opinion. You believe what you want to believe on this one.
 
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