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Forced Conversion

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Catholics....and Orthodox Christians.

Indeed and just like Catholics/Protestants, Orthodox Christians have also been complicit in forced conversions:

Conversion of Chełm Eparchy - Wikipedia

The Conversion of Chełm Eparchy, which occurred from January to May 1875, refers to the generally forced conversion of the last Uniate Eparchy in the Russian Empire, which was centered in the Volhynian city of Chełm (Kholm), to the Orthodox faith.

The Conversion to Orthodoxy was immediately preceded by the "purification" the Chełm eparchy of all Latin rituals from the Liturgy, ordered by Popel in October 1873. Initially, it was ignored by many priests, until the Russian state ordered them to sign a declaration that they would abide by the new rules by the New Year of 1874. Over twenty priests refused, and were either arrested or escaped to Galicia. Resistance to the changes was widespread among the people, particularly in the northern areas of the eparchy. In numerous parishes, the priests attempting to implement the reforms were dragged out of the church or their belongings were packed outside the rectory. Russian police and Cossacks were used to force the parishioners to accept the new rules; parishioners were sometimes beaten or shot. The struggle over ritual has been described as being comparable to that of the Old Believer schism, and one case of self-immolation was recorded.[4]

The purification having been completed by the end of 1874, from January 1875 until May of that year all of the parishes proclaimed their union with the Orthodox Church. The Uniate eparchy was dissolved and incorporated into the newly created Orthodox eparchy of Chełm and Warsaw, with Bishop Popel becoming suffragan bishop of Lublin resident in Chełm. The Chełm clergy was purged of most of its native priests, who were replaced by emigrating anti-Polish Russophile priests from eastern Galicia. In March 1881, out of 291 Orthodox priests in the former eparchy, 95 were native Chełm priests who had converted, 53 were Orthodox priests who had moved into the Eparchy from elsewhere, and 143 were Galicians. Sixty-six native Chełm priests who refused to convert fled to Galicia, 74 were exiled to Russia proper or imprisoned, and seven died as martyrs. During the struggle over purification and conversion, a total of 600 faithful were deported and 108 lost their lives


Soviet Muslims: Kazan Tatars

The Tatars and Bashkirs, the Muslim people of the Volga-Ural region, were the first to fall under Russian domination 433 years ago [1552 C.E.] and were heavily suppressed by the Orthodox Russians. Mosques were destroyed or converted into Orthodox churches, and the Russian Orthodox church forcibly baptized Muslims. In the year 1756, eighty percent of all mosques in the province (gubirna) of Kazan were destroyed.

In other words the largest branches of mainstream Christianity - Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism (Calvinism, Lutheranism, Anglicanism) - have all engaged in forced conversions, executions of heretics/apostates and suppression of minority groups by means of the apparatus of the state at various epochs in their respective histories.

To say otherwise would be historical revisionism.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Forced conversion has historical precedents from Abrahamic faiths all the way to Hinduism.

If an authority arrived today and made it mandatory that you convert to a faith that has been branded the only legal religion and forbade you to continue your current religious practices and beliefs, what actions would you take? Would you abandon your current religious beliefs to remain within the confines of the law? Would you defy the authority and continue you current practices? Would you follow the only legal faith publicly but continue to practice your current faith in private? Why?
Political authorities can command public behavior and discourse, but that falls well short of conversion, as any serious practicioner should easily realize.

Whether the law should be obeyed is almost entirely a matter of how willing one is to deal with the consequences of resistance. That has no religious significance whatsoever, regardless of official stances. If anything, claims to the contrary are a strong indication of adharmic societies that have little clue on what a religion would be.

True religiosity, under any political climate, is and can only be a private matter, albeit one that strongly benefits from social freedom and interaction.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Well, technically speaking, no one can be forced to accept Christ because one has to really believe in Christ in order to be a Christian. But people were forced to "convert," nevertheless, sadly, by saying the words meaninglessly.
It was the spirit of the times sadly, before relatively recent times. Of course we can say that these people who did the forced converting didn't have God, but just empty words themselves.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
It was the spirit of the times sadly, before relatively recent times. Of course we can say that these people who did the forced converting didn't have God, but just empty words themselves.

Very true. They were doing this to satisfy their pride and the pride of their rulers, including many popes, sadly. Pride is an extremely distasteful sin.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Nobody was ever forced to convert to Christianity, only to Catholicism. If forced to convert to Catholicism or Atheism I would do the only honorable thing and hang myself.
Actually this does happen, too. For example Zwingli wrote to a friend saying he had forced Balthasar Hubmaier to recant as he was stretched upon a rack. (See ch 6 The Protesters by Alan Eyre) Hubmaier then left Zurich Switzerland (yes crazy but even in Switzerland), and he moved to Moravia.

Here is a quote of a reply from Martin Luther to his former friend Caspar Schwenckfeld who writes to Luther to request that the Brethren be allowed to survive in Lutheran lands.
"Tell your master, Caspar Schwenckfeld, that I have received from you the booklet and the letter and would to God he would be silent. Formerly he kindled a fire in Silesia against the holy sacrament, which is not yet extinguished and will burn upon him forever. He continues with his creatureliness, and misleads the church, though God gave him no command, nor sent him. And the mad fool, possessed of the devil, does not understand anything; does not know what he is babbling. But if he will not cease, let him leave me unmolested with his booklets which the devil excretes and spews out of him. Tell him this is my last answer: may all those who have part with you, together with you and your blasphemies, be blasted to destruction."

The Lutherans proceeded on a heresy hunt against all the Brethren in Germany whatever parts were Lutheran. Luther advocated for terrible punishments.

Read about early Calvinism in the American colonies, how they required everyone to attend and oppressed Baptists and any others. There was a tax that went to the church, too. There's dirt but the reason people do not talk about it is that it is unpleasant. Memories of forced conversions create bad feelings and animosity, but they are real. They have happened, and they show what people are like when you startle them with information they do not like.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
That's odd since for the first 1500 years they were the only Christians.
To be fair (although it is not all that relevant to this thread), that is not quite accurate.

There were a lot of Christian heresies early on, and there was the Schism between Catholics and Orthodox Christians somewhere around 1100 or so.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Forced is a strong word, and suggests at gunpoint, or at the threat of death. What about the many coerced conversions, in exchange for jobs, for money, for food, for power, for status? Do these count at all?
It is also dismayingly common for supposedly Christian (and from all appearances, Muslim) parents to simply demand adherence from their own offspring. To the serious detriment of those faiths' credibility and respectability, of course.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
To be fair (although it is not all that relevant to this thread), that is not quite accurate.

There were a lot of Christian heresies early on, and there was the Schism between Catholics and Orthodox Christians somewhere around 1100 or so.

I had thought 1500 didn't sound quite right when I had first read that post.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
It is also dismayingly common for supposedly Christian (and from all appearances, Muslim) parents to simply demand adherence from their own offspring. To the serious detriment of those faiths' credibility and respectability, of course.

By demanding it you are only going to turn them against it. One must nurture Christ in love and demand nothing of anyone. Freedom of religion is paramount. We preach to our children and try to lead them but one should not ever try to force anyone to believe anything.
 

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
Forced conversion has historical precedents from Abrahamic faiths all the way to Hinduism.

If an authority arrived today and made it mandatory that you convert to a faith that has been branded the only legal religion and forbade you to continue your current religious practices and beliefs, what actions would you take? Would you abandon your current religious beliefs to remain within the confines of the law? Would you defy the authority and continue you current practices? Would you follow the only legal faith publicly but continue to practice your current faith in private? Why?

This is a very thought-provoking question. Honestly, I don't know what I would do if I were faced with being forced to convert to another religion, but I'm not going to deny my faith. Never again. Period. At this point in my life, the depths of my being absolutely forbid it. The only thing I could conceive doing is being executed, rather than being forced to convert.

Why would I choose death over forced conversion? Well, because my faith means everything to me. If I lose my own life for the sake of it, then so be it. Plus, I don't believe in forcing others to follow any religion.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
It is also dismayingly common for supposedly Christian (and from all appearances, Muslim) parents to simply demand adherence from their own offspring. To the serious detriment of those faiths' credibility and respectability, of course.

Regardless of methodology, it all starts out with the false premise of 'I have something you NEED.'
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
By demanding it you are only going to turn them against it.

Quite true, and a major detriment to those faiths. A threat to their continued viability, even.

One must nurture Christ in love and demand nothing of anyone. Freedom of religion is paramount. We preach to our children and try to lead them but one should not ever try to force anyone to believe anything.
I can agree with that.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Forced conversion has historical precedents from Abrahamic faiths all the way to Hinduism.

If an authority arrived today and made it mandatory that you convert to a faith that has been branded the only legal religion and forbade you to continue your current religious practices and beliefs, what actions would you take? Would you abandon your current religious beliefs to remain within the confines of the law? Would you defy the authority and continue you current practices? Would you follow the only legal faith publicly but continue to practice your current faith in private? Why?

Forced conversion is not a part of Judaism or Christianity, ancient or modern, at least those sects that are biblically based.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What a load of historical revisionist bollocks.

Even a cursory glance at recorded history demonstrates that both Protestants and Catholics participated in savage persecution of minority groups, for instance the pacifist Anabaptists:

Anabaptism - Wikipedia

Anabaptists were heavily persecuted during the 16th century and into the 17th century by both Magisterial Protestants and Roman Catholics,[a] largely because of their interpretation of scripture which put them at odds with official state church interpretations and with government. Most Anabaptists adhered to a literal interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount which precluded taking oaths, participating in military actions, and participating in civil government...

Roman Catholics and Protestants alike persecuted the Anabaptists, resorting to torture and execution in attempts to curb the growth of the movement. The Protestants under Zwingli were the first to persecute the Anabaptists, with Felix Manz becoming the first martyr in 1527. On May 20 or 21st, 1527, Roman Catholic authorities executed Michael Sattler.[38] King Ferdinand declared drowning (called the third baptism) "the best antidote to Anabaptism". The Tudor regime, even the Protestant monarchs (Edward VI of England and Elizabeth I of England), persecuted Anabaptists as they were deemed too radical and therefore a danger to religious stability. The persecution of Anabaptists was condoned by ancient laws of Theodosius Iand Justinian I that were passed against the Donatists, which decreed the death penalty for any who practised rebaptism. Martyrs Mirror, by Thieleman J. van Braght, describes the persecution and execution of thousands of Anabaptists in various parts of Europe between 1525 and 1660. Continuing persecution in Europe was largely responsible for the mass emigrations to North America by Amish, Hutterites, and Mennonites.


The modern Lutheran Church has officially apologised for the crimes that its forebears committed against Anabaptists:

https://news.adventist.org/en/all-n...-for-16th-century-persecution-of-anabaptists/

Lutherans apologize for 16th century persecution of Anabaptists

A global Lutheran councill in Germany officially apologized for its 16th century persecution of Anabaptists -- religious reformers whose descendants include Mennonites and whose beliefs profoundly influenced the founders of Seventh-day Adventism.

During a July 22 service of repentance, the Council of the Lutheran World Federation (LWF) voted unanimously in favor of the formal apology, which expresses "deep regret and sorrow" for past persecution and requests forgiveness from both God and the Anabaptist family.

In a foreword in the recent issue of Lutheran World Information, LWF President Mark S. Hanson said the church's repentance is part of the "ministry of reconciliation" Christians are called to as "ambassadors for Christ."

Anabaptists, whose name means "to baptize again," historically urged baptism by immersion for Christians as a public expression of faith and admission into a community of believers -- radically different from the era's common practice of infant baptism.

Anabaptists were also early advocates of separation of church and state, religious liberty and justification by faith. Facing persecution from both Protestants and Catholics in Europe in the 1500s, many found solace in America.


What universe are you living in?

Do you accept Calvinists and Lutherans as being Christians?

That's convoluded. Zwingli, the first one I looked up was not really accepted by the Protestants. He was more a Catholic looking to make some reforms to Catholicism but not enough to be accepted by Protestants. You were wrong about the first one so I didn't bother reading the rest.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
We can see forced conversion in North Korea, forced to become Atheists or at least keep any thing else hidden.

Nobody was ever forced to convert to Christianity, only to Catholicism. If forced to convert to Catholicism or Atheism I would do the only honorable thing and hang myself.
The history of the "conversos" in Spain shows that while there was not the level of force noted in the OP, extreme pressure was applied to Jews to convert and the Inquisition established to enforce that conversion.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
There's more, if you consider taking away kids from pagans and teaching them Jesus forced conversion.
Good point - true for Native Americans. A friend of mine was ripped away from her parents and put with others to "civilize" her into Christianity.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What about the Traditional Orthodox and Iconoclast attempts at forcing the other ones??

Or the Anglican Church's push to forcibly convert the Catholic Gaels??

None of that forcible conversion is biblical. Perhaps they were all somewhat influenced by Catholicism.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
It was the spirit of the times sadly, before relatively recent times. Of course we can say that these people who did the forced converting didn't have God, but just empty words themselves.
True. There are many who have acted in a way Jesus would not recognize as his teachings
 
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