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Free will and omniscience?

lew0049

CWebb
Was this knowledge text messaged to you, or how did it get to you, since god is OUTSIDE of this universe.

via E-mail actually.
We are constrained because we are the creation. But lets look at this from a scientific perspective since that will appeal to you moreso and will disregard philosophical questions like "do we truly exist" or "is matter real"

There are really two ways to explain our existence: we were created(there was a beginning) or there was no beginning(matter has always existed). Science states the universe expands day by day - galaxies are moving relative to each other and the pattern is causing them the expand from one another daily. What does this mean? That there had to be a point of singularity - in 1999 it was discovered the expansion of the universe is speeding up, not slowing down. A second proof is seen in the energy sources that fuel the cosmos - if you don't understand this point then research it (I'm trying to make this a quick response b/c I don't have much time).

Okay, from here the next question is was there or was there not a cause for our creation. If matter had a beginning and yet was uncaused, one must logically maintain that something would have had to come into existence out of nothing. From empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence, matter would have to become existent. Even if this could happen by some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical problem: In order for matter to come out of nothing, all of our scientific laws dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong, invalidating all of chemistry. All of our laws of conservation of angular momentum would have to be wrong, invalidating all of physics. All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be wrong, invalidating all of electronics and demanding radios, televisions, etc. not to work.

The next step - what was the cause? Many assert we are as much a product of blind forces as is the falling of a stone to earth or the ebb and flow of the tides. We have just happened, and man was made flesh by a long series of singularly beneficial accidents. The subject of design has been one that has been explored in many different ways. For most of us, simply looking at our newborn child is enough to rule out chance. Modern-day scientists like Paul Davies and Frederick Hoyle and others are raising elaborate objections to the use of chance in explaining natural phenomena. A principle of modern science has emerged in the 1980s called "the anthropic principle." The basic thrust of the anthropic principle is that chance is simply not a valid mechanism to explain the atom or life. If chance is not valid, we are constrained to reject Huxley's claim and to realize that we are the product of an intelligent God.

Actually, here is a link to explain a little of the rest - and no, the information you find on this link (2 minute read)is not indicative of the website title as I just found it - A HELP IN UNDERSTANDING WHAT GOD IS - Does God Exist? It simply looks at time from a scientific and mathmatical approach. I could explain it better but I've got to run.
-Chip

By the way logician, your sarcastic responses are appreciated. Since you are "logician" use your logic and reasoning to evaluate things. Have a good day
 

methylatedghosts

Can't brain. Has dumb.
Here's a thought:

Maybe free will and omniscience pose a problem because there is this thing called time. What if everything was the same moment. Then would it matter?
 

~Amin~

God is the King
If God is omniscient, he knows exactly what we are going to do.
If this is true, then why does God get angry, or pleased, after people do things? Surely he already knows what was going to happen?
When people liken God to His creation they get into problems,
yes He is Omniscirnt, yes He gets pleased and displeased but
not the way you imagine, He's unique in His Essence Acts and Attributes.
And also i dont see how God Kowing all things, should be a barrier to His reaction.
 

~Amin~

God is the King
Why does God "punish" people for things he knew they were going to do - since he knew in advance what was going to happen, God could have prevented it from happening .
If God was to prevent or stop every one who's choice
was contrary to His Will then why did He create us?
 

~Amin~

God is the King
Why does God "punish" people for things he knew they were going to do - since he knew in advance what was going to happen, God could have PREVENTED it from happening (since a punishment is given to the sinner, God clearly didn't want it to happen).
A good example of this is Adam and Eve - God knew what was going to happen, but got angry and punished them for it??
If God was going to PREVENT or stop everyone who acted contrary
to His Will, then why did He create us? and what happens to our
choice?
The event of Adam and Eve was basically for us to learn from,
that what ever God enjoins on man is for his own good, and
whatever He forbids is harmful, why should He prevent it when
it was meant to HAPPEN,

I know, your gonna say "did God make them do it ."
NO this was the result of there own choice, and further
in the Qur'an it states" Adam and Eve were forgiven".
 

logician

Well-Known Member
via E-mail actually.

Okay, from here the next question is was there or was there not a cause for our creation. If matter had a beginning and yet was uncaused, one must logically maintain that something would have had to come into existence out of nothing. From empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence, matter would have to become existent.

According to many multiverse models today matter and energy have always existed, making the "first cause" problem irrelevant. A multitide or even infinite number of universes may be constantly dying and being reborn. One can hypothesize a creator god exists, but one is not needed.
 

agent_smith

I evolved.
When people liken God to His creation they get into problems,
yes He is Omniscirnt, yes He gets pleased and displeased but
not the way you imagine, He's unique in His Essence Acts and Attributes.
And also i dont see how God Kowing all things, should be a barrier to His reaction.
If God knows something is going to happen... not just think it might, but knows it for sure, then logically he should never suddenly feel pleased or displeased about it. Ever.
The bible claiming that this is what God does shows it was written by imperfect humans who did not think these things through fully.
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
If God knows something is going to happen... not just think it might, but knows it for sure, then logically he should never suddenly feel pleased or displeased about it. Ever.
The bible claiming that this is what does shows it was written by imperfect humans who did not think these things through fully.

But if that action is something that isn't pleasing to Him, even though He knows it will happen doesn't mean He should be pleased with that does it?
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
Why would God create people whose actions are contrary to his will in the first place?

So we can choose between good and evil and determine for ourselves if we want to return to live with Him. It would be kind of hard to choose between good and evil if we could only choose good, now wouldn't it?
 

agent_smith

I evolved.
But if that action is something that isn't pleasing to Him, even though He knows it will happen doesn't mean He should be pleased with that does it?
An omnipotent God would never make anything happen that he does not want to happen.
An omniscient God would know exactly what is going to happen at every moment throughout the entire lifetime of his creation.

If any action appears to go against God's plan, it is still something that God wanted to happen. Perhaps it was something that's logically impossible to avoid. But God still knew it was going to happen since the moment of creation.

I hope I've made this clear enough now :shrug:
 

agent_smith

I evolved.
So we can choose between good and evil and determine for ourselves if we want to return to live with Him. It would be kind of hard to choose between good and evil if we could only choose good, now wouldn't it?
But God already knows what we are going to choose!! He's omniscient!
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
An omnipotent God would never make anything happen that he does not want to happen.

I agree. But wouldn't He also let things happen that He doesn't like. For example, murder, rape, etc. I doubt God wants it to happen but He lets it happen.

An omniscient God would know exactly what is going to happen at every moment throughout the entire lifetime of his creation.

I agree

If any action appears to go against God's plan, it is still something that God wanted to happen. Perhaps it was something that's logically impossible to avoid. But God still knew it was going to happen since the moment of creation.

I hope I've made this clear enough now :shrug:

Yes you have and I agree. But wouldn't letting people choose evil be part of His plan too? People choosing evil wouldn't make Him happy even though He knows they will choose it.

But God already knows what we are going to choose!! He's omniscient!

Exactly, but we still have to make the choice. If we don't actually make those choices then God wouldn't be omnicient because His knowledge would be false.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
An omnipotent God would never make anything happen that he does not want to happen.
An omniscient God would know exactly what is going to happen at every moment throughout the entire lifetime of his creation.

If any action appears to go against God's plan, it is still something that God wanted to happen. Perhaps it was something that's logically impossible to avoid. But God still knew it was going to happen since the moment of creation.

I hope I've made this clear enough now :shrug:
So you agree with me that to negate free will, God must be omnipotent as well as omniscient?
 

~Amin~

God is the King
Why would God create people whose actions are contrary to his will in the first place?
God created us to enjoy whats permissible(good for us)
on the earth, but fundamentally have our priority right
that He comes first in our lives, its His Will to allow people
to choose, this choice maybe good or bad.
 

Troublemane

Well-Known Member
But God already knows what we are going to choose!! He's omniscient!

My arguement is there is essentially no difference between a blind, purposeless universe ruled by chaotic/random forces and a totally determined universe, that cannot be deviated from in the slightest and the path of every atom is totally determined from the beginning of time, forever----these two scenarios are indestinguishable because in both the concept of choice is meaningless. In either view, the power for us to determine our own fates is either relative or nonexistent. the only view i can imagine that is consistent with an omnipotent God is one in which God is actually changing and is a part of the creation too, so there is a feedback loop, ----but would it have to be total omniscience or could it be just relative omniscience? would it have to be knowledge of everything for all time? what if the future really isnt written yet, cant it be omniscience in terms of knowing/being one with everything going on now?

i dont imagine omniscience would even resemble our normal conscious awareness, it surely would not be describable in familiar terms.---LoL---actually having total knowledge of everything in the universe would make you totally choice-less! Imagine being able to see everyone's side to every argument! having absolutely no preferred frame of reference? what an interesting bind you'd be in.:D
 
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