Free will and omniscience?

[Storm]

Is it really determined by us, though? Even if God had no hand in it, something had to for it to be complete.

If you think the future exists, then it's just like the past. The past is set, and we can "see" it, and those people made decisions. Those decisions cannot be changed now, or else the present doesn't exist as it does. The same goes for the future. If it's set, then the people in it have already made their decisions, and so can't change them, or else the future changes and can't be seen as a concrete thing.

Now we're getting into the nature of time, which I think is off-topic.

 

[Magic Man]

I guess, for me, the answer is in the mystery of how a theistic God is outside of time. I don't understand how that works, but then, that's why it's a mystery.

Right. If we look at it with the idea that the future is not something concrete to be "seen", which is how I see it, then this isn't even a problem. I don't think the future can be "seen" for just that reason, because it doesn't exist. Therefore we have free will. I don't believe in a theistic omnipotent god either, so I have no contradiction there either. I don't think anything is outside of time, just as nothing is outside of the universe.

 

[Magic Man]

Now we're getting into the nature of time, which I think is off-topic.

Yeah, but if it helps the original discussion along, I think it's ok.

 

[Storm]

Right. If we look at it with the idea that the future is not something concrete to be "seen", which is how I see it, then this isn't even a problem. I don't think the future can be "seen" for just that reason, because it doesn't exist. Therefore we have free will. I don't believe in a theistic omnipotent god either, so I have no contradiction there either. I don't think anything is outside of time, just as nothing is outside of the universe.

Yeah, I don't get it either. I certainly don't believe in it.

Yeah, but if it helps the original discussion along, I think it's ok.

OK, I'm sure someone will let us know if we go too far.

The whole "outside of time" thing is weird to me, but it's just one of those things you have to accept with the theistic God. The way I see it, God may be outside of time, but we're not. Here in the Creation, we're still weaving the tapestry. God's just watching. That''s the real paradox, but it has no bearing on free will.

 

[Wandered Off]

The whole "outside of time" thing is weird to me, but it's just one of those things you have to accept with the theistic God.

In case anyone cares, here's another place some folks discussed that topic. It's from a while back, but that wouldn't matter to anyone outside of time...

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/41009-god-outside-time.html

 

[Storm]

Thank you!

 

[Magic Man]

Thank you!

Hey, congrats, S, for hitting the half-million mark! :clap2:

 

[camanintx]

The way I see it, if there's no external influence on our choices, they're still our choices. Even if they're somehow already made.

Free will is only negated, imo, if God has the power to influence our choices.

So you would agree that while God may know what your future choices will be, it is not within God's power to communicate that knowledge to you?

 

[Troublemane]

We could all agree that if a model cannot be described to predict all outcomes, then free will exists in practical terms.

Do you mean by "practical terms" that it would not matter whether the free will was true or not? If the person just thinks he has free will, is that all that matters? What if someone creates a computer one day that can compute all possible quantum states for every possible particle in existence, and is able to calculate your destiny to 10^100 decimal places. Would you say this is free will because its accuracy is off by 1/10^100?

 

[Magic Man]

Do you mean by "practical terms" that it would not matter whether the free will was true or not? If the person just thinks he has free will, is that all that matters? What if someone creates a computer one day that can compute all possible quantum states for every possible particle in existence, and is able to calculate your destiny to 10^100 decimal places. Would you say this is free will because its accuracy is off by 1/10^100?

That's a different story. We're talking about someone telling us that they've seen the outcome of our choices already, not just predicted them. This was actually brought up before, the difference between complete foreknowledge and prediction. That's what makes the difference here.

 

[Popeyesays]

". . . .That's a different story. We're talking about someone. . . . "

"Someone?" Who? I know of no person that can predict the future.

If you meant God, God is not a human and therefore is not a "someone".

Regards,
Scott

 

[Magic Man]

". . . .That's a different story. We're talking about someone. . . . "

"Someone?" Who? I know of no person that can predict the future.

If you meant God, God is not a human and therefore is not a "someone".

Regards,
Scott

Great work! Yes, I'm talking about God, and it doesn't really matter what I call him, as long as people understand who it is I'm talking about. So, you would group God in with animals, and call it a thing? I was trying to give him more respect than that. Sorry, next time I'll remember God's not even good enough to be more than a thing.

Aside from that, have you ever heard of the term "hypothetical"? That's the kind of question we're dealing with here. If it wasn't hypothetical, we wouldn't be debating this.

 

[Popeyesays]

Great work! Yes, I'm talking about God, and it doesn't really matter what I call him, as long as people understand who it is I'm talking about. So, you would group God in with animals, and call it a thing? I was trying to give him more respect than that. Sorry, next time I'll remember God's not even good enough to be more than a thing.

Aside from that, have you ever heard of the term "hypothetical"? That's the kind of question we're dealing with here. If it wasn't hypothetical, we wouldn't be debating this.

God is not human, animal or vetable--mineral or energy. God is ? and I will never understand what He/It is or is not in essence.

Every single part of Creation is a thing. God is not part of Creation and therefore is not a thing, or any kind of creature.

God is self-sufficient and every part of creation is dependent upon all the other parts of creation.God is not the Universe and the Universe is not God.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Magic Man]

God is not human, animal or vetable--mineral or energy. God is ? and I will never understand what He/It is or is not in essence.

Every single part of Creation is a thing. God is not part of Creation and therefore is not a thing, or any kind of creature.

God is self-sufficient and every part of creation is dependent upon all the other parts of creation.God is not the Universe and the Universe is not God.

Regards,
Scott

Well then using a human word for him at all seems kind of pointless. Maybe you just shouldn't talk about him at all.

 

[Troublemane]

That's a different story. We're talking about someone telling us that they've seen the outcome of our choices already, not just predicted them. This was actually brought up before, the difference between complete foreknowledge and prediction. That's what makes the difference here.

Perhaps we shall have to invoke a little quantum mechanics here! According to the uncertainty principle anytime a subatomic particle is interacted with its state is irrevocably changed. In my understanding God can only know the state of all things if it/he/she is absolutely one with all things. Otherwise...the amount of energy required to instantly "know" the state of every particle in the universe is so great, it would destroy the universe.

So, its impossible for God to know the future with perfect foreknowledge because the universe is interactive and self-evolving, as well as from the quantum mechanics principle that any perfect knowledge of future events will change that future and prevent it from happening.

 

[Popeyesays]

Well then using a human word for him at all seems kind of pointless. Maybe you just shouldn't talk about him at all.

"The divine Essence , sanctified from every comparison and likeness, is established in the Prophet, and God's inmost Reality, exalted above any peer or partner, is manifest in Him. This is the station of true unity and of veritable singleness. The followers of the previous Dispensation grievously failed to acquire an adequate understanding of this station. " ~Baha`u'llah

 

[Storm]

So you would agree that while God may know what your future choices will be, it is not within God's power to communicate that knowledge to you?

I agree with the first part. As to the latter, I don't see that as connected to omniscience.

 

[camanintx]

I agree with the first part. As to the latter, I don't see that as connected to omniscience.

I'm just curious if you recognize the paradox that would exist if any knowledge of your future choices were made known to you before you make them.

 

[Storm]

I'm just curious if you recognize the paradox that would exist if any knowledge of your future choices were made known to you before you make them.

I don't see it as a paradox. I see it as the meaning of omniscience.

 

[Magic Man]

Perhaps we shall have to invoke a little quantum mechanics here! According to the uncertainty principle anytime a subatomic particle is interacted with its state is irrevocably changed. In my understanding God can only know the state of all things if it/he/she is absolutely one with all things. Otherwise...the amount of energy required to instantly "know" the state of every particle in the universe is so great, it would destroy the universe.

So, its impossible for God to know the future with perfect foreknowledge because the universe is interactive and self-evolving, as well as from the quantum mechanics principle that any perfect knowledge of future events will change that future and prevent it from happening.

Don't get me wrong, I agree completely. It's just that, for the sake of this debate, we have to assume there is a God, or at least some being, who can see the future. If you believe in an omniscient god, then you must believe he can see the future. (not "you" directly) I also think the future must be changeable, and so not set in stone to be seen by anyone before it happens, but, then again, I don't believe in an omniscient god.