Free will and omniscience?

[Magic Man]

"The divine Essence , sanctified from every comparison and likeness, is established in the Prophet, and God's inmost Reality, exalted above any peer or partner, is manifest in Him. This is the station of true unity and of veritable singleness. The followers of the previous Dispensation grievously failed to acquire an adequate understanding of this station. " ~Baha`u'llah

Ws this supposed to prove a point?

 

[Storm]

Random thought:

What if God being outside of time doesn't mean He already views the tapestry as complete? What if it just means that He's far enough away to see the patterns as they form? Being sensitive to the patterns, He is aware of which ones are currently forming, how they will interact, and what they mean.

 

[Magic Man]

Random thought:

What if God being outside of time doesn't mean He already views the tapestry as complete? What if it just means that He's far enough away to see the patterns as they form? Being sensitive to the patterns, He is aware of which ones are currently forming, how they will interact, and what they mean.

That's a thought. I like that actually. I'll ponder it some more. (You coming in to chat?)

 

[Storm]

Soon.

 

[agent_smith]

Wow, this thread exploded slightly since I last looked. And it seems the theists are still avoiding (perhaps unintentionally) this idea of their God being omniscient. Example from a couple of posts back:

Random thought:

What if God being outside of time doesn't mean He already views the tapestry as complete? What if it just means that He's far enough away to see the patterns as they form? Being sensitive to the patterns, He is aware of which ones are currently forming, how they will interact, and what they mean.

You just said "What if God doesn't know something?". He knows everything. Apparently.
If you are going to justify your God's existence, don't try to redefine him.

 

[Storm]

You just said "What if God doesn't know something?". He knows everything. Apparently.
If you are going to justify your God's existence, don't try to redefine him.

Uhm, as I've said several times in this thread, it's not my God. Pay attention. :slap:

 

[Magic Man]

Wow, this thread exploded slightly since I last looked. And it seems the theists are still avoiding (perhaps unintentionally) this idea of their God being omniscient. Example from a couple of posts back:


You just said "What if God doesn't know something?". He knows everything. Apparently.
If you are going to justify your God's existence, don't try to redefine him.

Actually, she's not talking about her God at all. If you want to take the time to learn about her God, then feel free to comment. For now, she was responding in a genral way to the discussion at hand. Her God doesn't "know everything", and so she has never been arguing from that point of view. She has een arguing a hypothetical case from the beginning, so why not chang eit up a little to shake things up?

 

[Popeyesays]

Ws this supposed to prove a point?

Rather to illustrate a viewpoint. . . . .

Regards,

Scott

 

[agent_smith]

Uhm, as I've said several times in this thread, it's not my God. Pay attention. :slap:

Oh, sorry. 3 billion God-believers are wrong but yours is correct. My mistake

 

[Storm]

Oh, sorry. 3 billion God-believers are wrong but yours is correct. My mistake

Nope. I'm not correct either, as I have said many times. We're all just guessing.

 

[Magic Man]

Oh, sorry. 3 billion God-believers are wrong but yours is correct. My mistake

Oh, sorry, 3 billion God-believers are wrong but you are correct. My mistake. (See how I did that, made it fit the fact that you're an atheist who goes against those same 3 billion people and assume you're right, even though you use the logic to try to prove Storm's doing something wrong?)

 

[agent_smith]

Oh, sorry, 3 billion God-believers are wrong but you are correct. My mistake. (See how I did that, made it fit the fact that you're an atheist who goes against those same 3 billion people and assume you're right, even though you use the logic to try to prove Storm's doing something wrong?)

None of my beliefs (e.g. evolution) are contradicted by science. I don't believe in anything that cannot be seen, or measured, or calculated, or observed, or analysed, in some way.

Does that make my view irrational? :no:

When you look at otehr religions, it is usually easy to pick holes in them. But the members of that religion see it as perfect.
When others look at your religion, it is easy for them to pick holes in it - but you see it as perfect too (otherwise you wouldn't believe it,right?)
I'm yet to see anyone disprove science - excluding the recent theories that haven't been investigated fully such as string theory - without offering a better alternative.

I refuse to believe in an invisible zombie, a life after death or an all-powerful God without a tiny bit of evidence.

 

[Popeyesays]

None of my beliefs (e.g. evolution) are contradicted by science. I don't believe in anything that cannot be seen, or measured, or calculated, or observed, or analysed, in some way.

Does that make my view irrational? :no:

When you look at otehr religions, it is usually easy to pick holes in them. But the members of that religion see it as perfect.
When others look at your religion, it is easy for them to pick holes in it - but you see it as perfect too (otherwise you wouldn't believe it,right?)
I'm yet to see anyone disprove science - excluding the recent theories that haven't been investigated fully such as string theory - without offering a better alternative.

I refuse to believe in an invisible zombie, a life after death or an all-powerful God without a tiny bit of evidence.

If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition . Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation."

Abdu'l Baha, pp239-240

Regards,
Scott
"

 

[Rolling_Stone]

None of my beliefs (e.g. evolution) are contradicted by science. I don't believe in anything that cannot be seen, or measured, or calculated, or observed, or analysed, in some way.

Does that make my view irrational?

:yes: It's called "positivism." (Something science and reason rejects.)

When you look at otehr religions, it is usually easy to pick holes in them. But the members of that religion see it as perfect.

Very few, as a matter of fact.

When others look at your religion, it is easy for them to pick holes in it - but you see it as perfect too (otherwise you wouldn't believe it,right?)

Easy to pick holes in? Perhaps. But it's appreciated when errors in thinking are pointed out. However, it's come to the point where atheistic arguments have all been heard, considered and rejected after adjustments are made. Do I consider my beliefs perfect? Hardly.

I'm yet to see anyone disprove science - excluding the recent theories that haven't been investigated fully such as string theory - without offering a better alternative.

Science is a very useful tool, though hardly adequate. Still, who wants to disprove it?

I refuse to believe in an invisible zombie, a life after death or an all-powerful God without a tiny bit of evidence.

This sounds like a blind man saying, "I refuse to believe in color!" You need tools adequate to the task.

 

[Magic Man]

None of my beliefs (e.g. evolution) are contradicted by science. I don't believe in anything that cannot be seen, or measured, or calculated, or observed, or analysed, in some way.

Does that make my view irrational? :no:

When you look at otehr religions, it is usually easy to pick holes in them. But the members of that religion see it as perfect.
When others look at your religion, it is easy for them to pick holes in it - but you see it as perfect too (otherwise you wouldn't believe it,right?)
I'm yet to see anyone disprove science - excluding the recent theories that haven't been investigated fully such as string theory - without offering a better alternative.

I refuse to believe in an invisible zombie, a life after death or an all-powerful God without a tiny bit of evidence.

The point is that you used the fact that 3 billion people believe in something to mean that it must be true. If you're right, then 3 billion people are wrong, too. It's not a good enough reason to prove something wrong. I didn't say your view was irrational, but your logic in trying to prove Storm wrong was faulty because it also proved you wrong, that's all.

 

[logician]

The "bandwagon" proof really isn't a good way to show that something is correct. Bush got re-elected, was that correct?

 

[Storm]

None of my beliefs (e.g. evolution) are contradicted by science.

Neither are mine.

I don't believe in anything that cannot be seen, or measured, or calculated, or observed, or analysed, in some way.

Nor do I.

I do find it amusing that you killed your own thread by attacking strawmen of me. Well done. :slap:

 

[Random]

I don't believe in anything that cannot be seen, or measured, or calculated, or observed, or analysed, in some way.

Neither do I, but some men can see more than others...

 

[lew0049]

I don't feel like typing an essay, so here goes...

If God is omniscient, he knows exactly what we are going to do.
If this is true, then why does God get angry, or pleased, after people do things? Surely he already knows what was going to happen?
Why does God "punish" people for things he knew they were going to do - since he knew in advance what was going to happen, God could have prevented it from happening (since a punishment is given to the sinner, God clearly didn't want it to happen).
A good example of this is Adam and Eve - God knew what was going to happen, but got angry and punished them for it??

"No, we have free will!" I hear you say.
That makes no difference. If God created us, he created our minds and our ability to choose and reason. Just like if we build a robot,the robot may be "choosing" what to do, but it will only do what the programmer designed it to do in different situations.
Still don't believe me? How about this: If I ran outside right now and got hit by a bus, it MUST have been part of "God's plan" for me to die at that moment. Therefore, he must know what I am going to "choose" to do.

There is only one possibility I can think of: that God must somehow retard his own knowledge of what choices we are going to make. But that would contradict him being an omnipotent God.

Anyway, back to my main point... can anyone solve this problem? The only solutions I see are:
1. God is imaginary (what I believe).
2. Free will is imaginary.
3. God is not all-knowing.

Good question and one that I have thought about for a long time.
It all comes down to God and the him being outside of the creation's time function. If he created the world, then he must be outside of his creation - the nature of the cause must be outside of our 3-D world and mankind's governing time function.

Essentially, this means that while we live moment to moment, day to day, etc., God is not constrained by this function as he can look at the overall picture. He can look at any day whenever he wants and know our actions - all of the while we are still given free will to make decisions and those decisions have not been pre-determined. Thinking about this concept is slighly confusing, but then again, I believe it's not supposed to make absolute sense. Hope this helps
I

 

[logician]

Good question and one that I have thought about for a long time.
It all comes down to God and the him being outside of the creation's time function. If he created the world, then he must be outside of his creation - the nature of the cause must be outside of our 3-D world and mankind's governing time function.

Essentially, this means that while we live moment to moment, day to day, etc., God is not constrained by this function as he can look at the overall picture. He can look at any day whenever he wants and know our actions - all of the while we are still given free will to make decisions and those decisions have not been pre-determined. Thinking about this concept is slighly confusing, but then again, I believe it's not supposed to make absolute sense. Hope this helps
I

Was this knowledge text messaged to you, or how did it get to you, since god is OUTSIDE of this universe.