Free will and omniscience?

[Troublemane]

This entire argument is based on the assumption that God exists. What IF he doesn't? Wouldn't that explain just as much about why books like the bible make no sense in places?

The whole point is that it has to be based on personal experience. A person is atheistic or theistic (et al.)because of personal belief, it cannot be proven. However, whether God exists or not it doesnt matter to the question of free will....even if God does not exist it does not imply free will is the defacto result, because other factors could be introduced such as genetic predisposition or Newtonian causality (Hobbes was a proponent of the latter) to remove free will. All events in the universe would then be the result of simple algebraic interactions, A+B=C. This concept leaves no room for free will, whether God is or is not omnipotent, exists or does not exist.

 

[crystalonyx]

The whole point is that it has to be based on personal experience. A person is atheistic or theistic (et al.)because of personal belief, it cannot be proven. However, whether God exists or not it doesnt matter to the question of free will....even if God does not exist it does not imply free will is the defacto result, because other factors could be introduced such as genetic predisposition or Newtonian causality (Hobbes was a proponent of the latter) to remove free will. All events in the universe would then be the result of simple algebraic interactions, A+B=C. This concept leaves no room for free will, whether God is or is not omnipotent, exists or does not exist.

We could all agree that if a model cannot be described to predict all outcomes, then free will exists in practical terms.

 

[Magic Man]

I think I do understand your position and yes, I do disagree with it. I think that the idea that God (or anything else for that matter) can have any foreknowledge of my choices is incompatible with my free will to make those choices. Either God cannot have foreknowledge or I cannot have free will. Just saying that God's foreknowledge is dependent on my choice does not resolve the paradox such a position entails.

I know what you're saying, and I agree. In answer to your original question, though: Maybe you choose the chicken, and it falls on the floor and gets eaten by the dog, so you end up having to eat the beef. You made the decision, but God knew what would happen despite that decision.

 

[Storm]

I just honestly don't understand how foreknowledge negates free will. Now, foreknowledge couple with the power to influence is another matter.

 

[Magic Man]

I just honestly don't understand how foreknowledge negates free will. Now, foreknowledge couple with the power to influence is another matter.

Let me see whether I can explain it in a different way. The idea of foreknowledge implies that the future is set. If someone knows what happens tomorrow, then tomorrow's actions are set in stone. That means that any decision I have today already has a set outcome, or else tomorrow would not be set in stone, meaning the future doesn't already exist, and so can't be known ahead of time. So, while I seem to have a decision, the outcome is already decided, so that, in essence, my decision was already made for me.

Does that explain it well enough, S? If I'm not clear enough, please let me know, and I'll try to do better.

EDIT: You can still choose whether or not to kill someone, but the outcome is already a part of the future.

 

[Storm]

That was an excellent explanation, and I think I understand better, now. Thank you.

However, I still disagree.

 

[Magic Man]

That was an excellent explanation, and I think I understand better, now. Thank you.

However, I still disagree.

Would you mind trying to explain how you disagree with it?

 

[Storm]

Would you mind trying to explain how you disagree with it?

The way I see it, if there's no external influence on our choices, they're still our choices. Even if they're somehow already made.

Free will is only negated, imo, if God has the power to influence our choices.

Are you familiar with the tapestry metaphor?

 

[Magic Man]

The way I see it, if there's no external influence on our choices, they're still our choices. Even if they're somehow already made.

Free will is only negated, imo, if God has the power to influence our choices.

Are you familiar with the tapestry metaphor?

I understand that take on it, but I am not familiar with that metaphor.

 

[Storm]

History (and, in this case, the future) as a tapestry, with each life being a single thread. It goes back to the Greek idea of the Fates spinning our lives.

With me so far?

 

[Magic Man]

History (and, in this case, the future) as a tapestry, with each life being a single thread. It goes back to the Greek idea of the Fates spinning our lives.

With me so far?

Yup..

 

[Storm]

From my perspective, free will means that we are the ones weaving the tapestry. We determine where our threads will go by making our own choices. If God is omniscient, He simply views the tapestry. We determine the pattern, and that is free will. Even if the tapestry is already complete from His perspective, He had no part in weaving it. He just created the loom and let it go on its own.

Make sense?

 

[Orontes]

The way I see it, if there's no external influence on our choices, they're still our choices. Even if they're somehow already made.

Free will is only negated, imo, if God has the power to influence our choices.

Are you familiar with the tapestry metaphor?

Hello,

The difficulty with the above is if Deity knows the future whereby the future is a knowable quality, then it has always been the case that action X would occur at point T.* This conclusion predates the existence of acting subject. The subject is simply the operator, but never a controlling agent, as control would indicate the ability to do otherwise and the ability to do otherwise would frustrate any claim Deity formally knows the future. Therefore, it is problematic to claim in the strong sense, that the subject's choices are their own.

*As per the logic of perfection, God cannot have false knowledge and there cannot be anything that God does not know. Therefore, if Deity knows a thing then Deity must always have known that thing.

 

[Magic Man]

From my perspective, free will means that we are the ones weaving the tapestry. We determine where our threads will go by making our own choices. If God is omniscient, He simply views the tapestry. We determine the pattern, and that is free will. Even if the tapestry is already complete from His perspective, He had no part in weaving it. He just created the loom and let it go on its own.

Make sense?

I understand. It's just that if I see a tapestry, it's already done. Any decisions made in the process of its creation have already been made. It was already decided to put red in this section, and blue in that, or else it would turn out differently. If I had decided that green should go in instead of red, then the tapestry is different, and I can't have seen the one that I did. The decisions about it have to be made the way they were, or else the end product looks different. So, in making a different decision, I change the tapestry, which is then impossible, because the tapestry is already made, which is why it's able to be seen.

 

[Storm]

I understand. It's just that if I see a tapestry, it's already done. Any decisions made in the process of its creation have already been made. It was already decided to put red in this section, and blue in that, or else it would turn out differently. If I had decided that green should go in instead of red, then the tapestry is different, and I can't have seen the one that I did. The decisions about it have to be made the way they were, or else the end product looks different. So, in making a different decision, I change the tapestry, which is then impossible, because the tapestry is already made, which is why it's able to be seen.

Yes, but to me, the question of free will is "who makes the decisions? Who is doing the weaving?" If it's us, we have free will. If it's God, we don't.

 

[Wandered Off]

The way I see it, if there's no external influence on our choices, they're still our choices. Even if they're somehow already made.

The way I would rephrase it is that they're our actions, not our choices. If the action (tapestry) already exists - which it would if it could be known - then we never really had choices at all. They only appear to be choices to us because we don't know the end product. So our actions weave the tapestry, but the we can't make a different choice from the one already known.

 

[Storm]

The way I would rephrase it is that they're our actions, not our choices. If the action (tapestry) already exists - which it would if it could be known - then we never really had choices at all. They only appear to be choices to us because we don't know the end product. So our actions weave the tapestry, but the we can't make a different choice from the one already known.

I understand.

But if God has no hand in the weaving, the pattern is determined by us. The idea that we've already determined it doesn't change that. That's free will.

 

[Wandered Off]

But if God has no hand in the weaving, the pattern is determined by us. The idea that we've already determined it doesn't change that. That's free will.

Presumably it was already determined before you were born. How would you determine something before you exist?

 

[Storm]

Presumably it was already determined before you were born. How would you determine something before you exist?

I guess, for me, the answer is in the mystery of how a theistic God is outside of time. I don't understand how that works, but then, that's why it's a mystery.

 

[Magic Man]

I understand.

But if God has no hand in the weaving, the pattern is determined by us. The idea that we've already determined it doesn't change that. That's free will.

Is it really determined by us, though? Even if God had no hand in it, something had to for it to be complete.

If you think the future exists, then it's just like the past. The past is set, and we can "see" it, and those people made decisions. Those decisions cannot be changed now, or else the present doesn't exist as it does. The same goes for the future. If it's set, then the people in it have already made their decisions, and so can't change them, or else the future changes and can't be seen as a concrete thing.