Free will and omniscience?

[Storm]

I'm only giving God characteristics that the church says he has.

And denying others, like emotion.

You're saying "Isn't it wonderful to create something?" which is a human emotion that you are assuming God has too. It is an appeal to emotion because you are trying to say God has emotions because we do; which is not a logical argument.

1) I'm just tossing out ideas, not making an argument at all.

2) What's the logic behind denying that God has emotion.

If you were omniscient, you would know every possible combination of words - therefore saying that writing a poem would "please" you is a complete assumption without logic.

Are you an artist of any stripe?

 

[Storm]

That's because you're only human, not omniscient. If you knew every single pixel colour throughout the whole movie, every sound wave that is emitted, every aspect to the story, etc perfectly then why would you still be moved by it? You wouldn't even need to watch the movie to remember what happens!

Then why would such a God Create the universe at all?

 

[Sola'lor]

I don't think God exists

Well then are you presenting arguments about God's plan if you don't believe in it? I'm not trying to dictate what you can say and what you can't. It just doesn't make sense for a person who doesn't believe in God to present God's plan. It's like a person who doesn't believe in the flood claiming God is evil for killing people in the flood. It doesn't make sense.

That's because you're only human, not omniscient. If you knew every single pixel colour throughout the whole movie, every sound wave that is emitted, every aspect to the story, etc perfectly then why would you still be moved by it?

If the acting is good then yes, probably.

You wouldn't even need to watch the movie to remember what happens!

Unless what you remember IS the movie.

 

[agent_smith]

And denying others, like emotion.

Only because emotion is illogical for an omniscient being.

2) What's the logic behind denying that God has emotion.

Occam's razor.

Are you an artist of any stripe?

Not really, but I think I can see where this is going...
You're still avoiding the idea that God apparently knows everything. If you knew EVERY possible combination of colours that you could paint on a canvas, why would ANY painting - even if you drew it yourself - please you? You can already visualise absolutely everything.

 

[agent_smith]

Then why would such a God Create the universe at all?

Good question. I don't know; it makes no sense to me.

It's one of the reasons I don't think God exists.

 

[Sola'lor]

Not really, but I think I can see where this is going...
You're still avoiding the idea that God apparently knows everything. If you knew EVERY possible combination of colours that you could paint on a canvas, why would ANY painting - even if you drew it yourself - please you? You can already visualise absolutely everything.

There's a HUGE difference between visualizing and actually doing.

It's like imagining making-out with my fiancee. It's very pleasent to imagine but it's NOTHING compared to when it actually happens.

 

[Storm]

Only because emotion is illogical for an omniscient being.

Why?

Occam's razor.

Has nothing to do with emotion.

Not really, but I think I can see where this is going...

Just trying to find a common point of reference. Second attempt: got any kids?

You're still avoiding the idea that God apparently knows everything.

No, I'm not.

If you knew EVERY possible combination of colours that you could paint on a canvas, why would ANY painting - even if you drew it yourself - please you? You can already visualise absolutely everything.

Because it's FUN.

You might be answering this even as I type, but I'll ask again anyway. If God has no emotion, why Create in the first place? I can only think of three motives: boredom, loneliness, or the sheer pleasure of creating. All emotions. Can you think of any motive that isn't an emotion?

 

[agent_smith]

Well then are you presenting arguments about God's plan if you don't believe in it? I'm not trying to dictate what you can say and what you can't. It just doesn't make sense for a person who doesn't believe in God to present God's plan. It's like a person who doesn't believe in the flood claiming God is evil for killing people in the flood. It doesn't make sense.

It would make much more sense to debate "God's plan" with theists than to debate attributes that you don't claim God has!
Atheists who talk about the flood do so because they want to show theists how their faith is illogical; not because they are confused whether or not it actually happened.

If the acting is good then yes, probably.

No, because you also know exactly what actions everyone makes during every frame of the film.

Unless what you remember IS the movie.

An omniscient being would know everything from the past, present and future; i.e. would not forget what the movie it.

 

[agent_smith]

There's a HUGE difference between visualizing and actually doing.

For you, yes. You're still comparing this omniscient God to a human. If you know EXACTLY what is going to happen when you do something, there is no difference.

It's like imagining making-out with my fiancee. It's very pleasent to imagine but it's NOTHING compared to when it actually happens.

Same as above

 

[yossarian22]

Occam's razor.

What?!
Occam's razor would reject God in its entirety. It states absolutely nothing about emotion unless you are planning on being intentionally obtuse by accepting the existence of god, then rejecting any possible attribute assigned to it as 'assumed'. How do you know god is omniscient? Oh? Assumption. Well there goes that description.

 

[Sola'lor]

It would make much more sense to debate "God's plan" with theists than to debate attributes that you don't claim God has!

I agree. Are you refeing to any specific person or situation?

Atheists who talk about the flood do so because they want to show theists how their faith is illogical; not because they are confused whether or not it actually happened.

So does it work in showing theists their views are illogical?

No, because you also know exactly what actions everyone makes during every frame of the film.

So. Absolute knowledge of a film doesn't detract from the quality of a film.

An omniscient being would know everything from the past, present and future;

Agreed.

i.e. would not forget what the movie it.

This doesn't make any sense. I think you just accidentally left out a word or two.

For you, yes. You're still comparing this omniscient God to a human. If you know EXACTLY what is going to happen when you do something, there is no difference.

There is a difference. One is knowing what will happen the other is actually performing the action and causeing it to happen.

Same as above

 

[agent_smith]

Why?

I should have really stated omnipotent as well, but anyway...
God should be able (with infinite power) to make himself perfect. Emotions make your decisions biased; therefore they will not always be perfect. An omniscient God would know this.

Has nothing to do with emotion.

IF God exists...
Then it is not necessary for him to have emotion in order for him to function perfectly. Therefore one can assume (since emotion should not affect him) that he does not have any. Combined with what I said above, emotion can be taken out of the equation.

Just trying to find a common point of reference. Second attempt: got any kids?

I hope not; I'm 17
Feel free to use any example, though... kids, art, whatever. I'll still understand your point.

Because it's FUN.

You only find these things fun because you don't know EXACTLY what is going to happen.

You might be answering this even as I type, but I'll ask again anyway. If God has no emotion, why Create in the first place? I can only think of three motives: boredom, loneliness, or the sheer pleasure of creating. All emotions. Can you think of any motive that isn't an emotion?

There's the old cop-out argument of "God's divine plan".
But other than that, I don't see any logical reason why, no.

 

[Sola'lor]

What?!
Occam's razor would reject God in its entirety. It states absolutely nothing about emotion unless you are planning on being intentionally obtuse by accepting the existence of god, then rejecting any possible attribute assigned to it as 'assumed'.

What is Occam's razor?

How do you know god is omniscient? Oh? Assumption. Well there goes that description.

This is why I believe God is omniscient:

Doctrine and Covenants 88:14
41 He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever.

 

[agent_smith]

I'm going to eat something... don't make the replies TOO huge with quotes please

 

[Storm]

agent_smith,

We agree that there is no non-emotional motive for an omnimax, theistc, Creator God to Create in the first place. However, if said deity DOES exist, He obviously Created us. Is it not therefore logical to assume that if such a God exists, He has emotions?

 

[Magic Man]

Well then are you presenting arguments about God's plan if you don't believe in it? I'm not trying to dictate what you can say and what you can't. It just doesn't make sense for a person who doesn't believe in God to present God's plan. It's like a person who doesn't believe in the flood claiming God is evil for killing people in the flood. It doesn't make sense.

Just because someone doesn't believe in something doesn't mean they can't argue about it. If that was the case, we would almost never have arguments. I don't believe in God, or the flood myth, but I can still look at them, just like you can, and make judgements about them. I can present God's plan just as much as you can, because I have mostly the same information.

We are both human, which means that if He exists, neither one of us can possibly hope to understand Him, whether or not we believe. I, therefore, have the same information that you do, namely the scriptures. From that, and from what others, such as you, tell me, I can present what we know God's plan to be. You believe that the scriptures are God telling us about his plan to help us understand it better. I use it to do just that.

Tell me whether you disagree with this: God gave us the opportunity to live here on earth to experience things in this life that we couldn't in others. These things, like suffering, pain, joy and love, are supposed to make us better, more complete beings in the end. Once we are done here, and have learned as much as we can, we will almost all eventually go back to live with God. The way to get back to that life with God is to follow the rules He has given us, and God loves us all, and wants us to come back to Him, but doesn't want to force us to do anything we don't want to. IS that the basics of it?

From that I can judge the other things that are part of that same belief system that contradict those basic beliefs. I can even do that without knowing every little detail about the religion, because I can use logic and reason.

 

[Sola'lor]

Just because someone doesn't believe in something doesn't mean they can't argue about it. If that was the case, we would almost never have arguments. I don't believe in God, or the flood myth, but I can still look at them, just like you can, and make judgements about them. I can present God's plan just as much as you can, because I have mostly the same information.

We are both human, which means that if He exists, neither one of us can possibly hope to understand Him, whether or not we believe. I, therefore, have the same information that you do, namely the scriptures. From that, and from what others, such as you, tell me, I can present what we know God's plan to be. You believe that the scriptures are God telling us about his plan to help us understand it better. I use it to do just that.

I definatly agree with this. What I was meaning that I agree with agruments that I don't really agree with. Even if I'm presenting an opposing view. Maybe it's just me

Tell me whether you disagree with this: God gave us the opportunity to live here on earth to experience things in this life that we couldn't in others. These things, like suffering, pain, joy and love, are supposed to make us better, more complete beings in the end. Once we are done here, and have learned as much as we can, we will almost all eventually go back to live with God. The way to get back to that life with God is to follow the rules He has given us, and God loves us all, and wants us to come back to Him, but doesn't want to force us to do anything we don't want to. IS that the basics of it?

Mmmmm. It's pretty close. I agree with it generally but there are some details I think could be better worded.

From that I can judge the other things that are part of that same belief system that contradict those basic beliefs. I can even do that without knowing every little detail about the religion, because I can use logic and reason.

I agree but a person cannot have a complete understanding of another persons' view. We can get pretty close but it's still not complete. BUt that's just one of those things we have to deal with.

I'm going to eat something... don't make the replies TOO huge with quotes please

QUOTE MASTER! hehehe.

 

[n5division]

Well, if He's not omnipotent, why assume He can control us at all? Our design "flaws" would be out of His control, and our choices are our own, He's just an observer.

If He's omnipotent AND omniscient, however, He not only knows our choices, but has the power to control them. Whether or not He chooses to do so is superfluous.

 

[agent_smith]

agent_smith,

We agree that there is no non-emotional motive for an omnimax, theistc, Creator God to Create in the first place. However, if said deity DOES exist, He obviously Created us. Is it not therefore logical to assume that if such a God exists, He has emotions?

I see this question as irrelevant, as it is impossible for such a God to exist.
However, even hypothetically if such a God exists, there are many other reasons why he may create this universe (though none of them make sense...then again nor does the church's teachings). For example, God may need this universe to exist in order survive, or he may have created it for other, non-omniscient beings, to watch, or some other bizarre reason.

 

[Sola'lor]

I see this question as irrelevant, as it is impossible for such a God to exist.
However, even hypothetically if such a God exists, there are many other reasons why he may create this universe (though none of them make sense...then again nor does the church's teachings). For example, God may need this universe to exist in order survive, or he may have created it for other, non-omniscient beings, to watch, or some other bizarre reason.

So creating the universe so His spirit children can gain physical bodies and thus be able to progress to become more like Him(their Father) doesn't make sense?