Freedom of religion -Isn't this a basic human right?

[Wannabe Yogi]

Not true....Secularism is not religiously neutral....it stems from the notion that either there's no God , or if there's , he should mind his own business and let what to cesar to cesar

I don't see this as true at all. America the first secular government in modern times. Many of the our founding fathers were very religious. The reason for the ideology was to protect freedom of thought, and the rights of the minority. I can not think of one Atheist among our founding fathers. So it is clear that there intent was not to keep religion out of the homes of humanity.

I believe that if you look at the modern concept of the nation state the best way to corrupt both religion and the state is to have a state run ideology. Whether it is atheism of the Soviet Union and China, Islam in Iran and Pakistan, Christianity of the Serbs or Hinduism of Nepal. This has only lead to the suffering of the religious minority groups.

Secularism is not perfect but it's the best system we have.

 

[Sahar]

Secularism is not perfect but it's the best system we have.

Not to many Muslims. :tribal:

 

[AxisMundi]

Which is a problem. Secularism says no to revelation and Islam says yes to revelation.
Islam says that revelation is not separate from politics, economics and social field, secularism says revelation has no role especially in politics.
Secularism is an ideology that is completely opposite to the Islamic one. Not neutral.

Secularism permits YOU to say yes to revelation within YOUR personal life and within YOUR own community, in peace.

Secularism permits Christians to do the same, in peace.

Secularism permits Buddhists, Hindu, Pagans, and everyone else to believe as they would, in peace. Including Atheists.

Secularism is indeed completely and absolutely neutral in regards to religion, it permits everyone to live as their conscious dictates (within the limits of law).

There is no inherent right to force your religion on others, period.

How forced? The Islamic system should come out of people's choice.

Secularism also permits Shi'ia to worship as they see fit and Sunni to worship as they see fit within the same Nation. Are you Sunni? Would you like to be forced to worship as a Shi'ia?

Turkey is a secular nation with a large Muslim majority, in the upper 90% range if memory serves.

Please example the shortcomings of Turkey for us, how are they "not true Muslims".

 

[McBell]

One cannot have Freedom of Religion without Freedom FROM Religion.

Sorry, but you are just plain flat out wrong.
You are free to choose whatever religion you want.
Hells bells, you can even make one up if it suits your fancy.

However, you are not given the right to block, stop, interfere with all things religious.
Your rights to be free from religion come to a complete halt when it interferes with anothers right to be religious.

In God We Trust, for example.

It is a no brainer really.

LOL
Obviously not.

There is absolutely NO religious freedom in any religiously controlled "System".

I agree.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Not to many Muslims. :tribal:

Then make your arguement. What great modern Islam Country has been produced by the rejection of secularism.

 

[McBell]

Can't this be said about a secular system too?

Only if the secular system takes the same "my way or no way" attitude that the known Islamic systems take.

Because now you get to help me to search for a secular state that allows Islamic political parties (which contradict the very basic values of secularism and calls for an Islamic Shari'a rule) to work legally and take part in elections and such...

The Islamic Political Party of America

 

[AxisMundi]

We have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Big difference.

Are you forced to live as a Protestant? Catholic? Prebeterian? "Christian"? Muslim, Hindu, Pagan, Atheist, etc?

There is indeed a Freedom FROM Religion in this Nation.

The US Constitution, good read and highly recomended.

Then there is the issue of tax dollars. People may say they do not want their tax dollars spent on anything religious. I can understand that, until they try to get me to spend my tax dollars funding abortion.

Feel free to show where your tax dollars go to pay for abortions, then we'll talk.

And please, credible sites only. WND, News max, Fox, Heritage Foundation and other right-wing empty talking heads need not apply. AP preferably.

 

[McBell]

Not to many Muslims. :tribal:

You hit the nail right on the head.
It is that ancient tribal attitude of many Muslims that disagrees with secularism.
Same goes for Christians.

 

[McBell]

The US Constitution, good read and highly recomended.

Please be so kind as to point out the part of the US Constitution that states that a Nativity scene is not allowed to be displayed because some self righteous Atheist or Muslim does not want to see it.

 

[AxisMundi]

Sorry, but you are just plain flat out wrong.
You are free to choose whatever religion you want.
Hells bells, you can even make one up if it suits your fancy.

Feel free to illustrate where the comment "Freedom From Religion" in any way, shape, or form even hints at some inherent right to "block or interfere religion".

One is certainly permitted to choose to live by any religion they choose in the US. One is also free to choose NO religion in the US.

However, you are not given the right to block, stop, interfere with all things religious.
Your rights to be free from religion come to a complete halt when it interferes with anothers right to be religious.

There is no inherent right to force others to worship within your religion, or to live BY your religious doctrines. THAT is Freedom FROM Religion.

In God We Trust, for example.

Prop 8 for example.

LOL Obviously not.

It is when you actually use your brain.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

We should have freedom of religion. People seem to forget that such a freedom includes all religions, not just theirs. It also includes freedom from religion. Some also think it is a majority rules type thing.

 

[CoolSunshine]

Not to many Muslims. :tribal:

Whyy?

 

[McBell]

It is when you actually use your brain.

No it isn't.
Seems I am actually using more of my brain than you are of yours.

The fact is that your religious freedoms come to a complete halt when it interferes with anothers religious freedom.

Your inability to understand this fact is not a fault of mine.

The fact is that your are not given the right to not have to see religious symbols, scenes, logos, phrases, etc. outside your own home.

Why this fact is so difficult for you to understand is beyond me.

You seemed to be intelligent enough to...



If you would like to continue with the ad hominem,
I can no doubt take you to school in it.

 

[Sahar]

Secularism permits YOU to say yes to revelation within YOUR personal life and within YOUR own community, in peace.

Secularism permits Christians to do the same, in peace.

Secularism permits Buddhists, Hindu, Pagans, and everyone else to believe as they would, in peace. Including Atheists.

Secularism is indeed completely and absolutely neutral in regards to religion, it permits everyone to live as their conscious dictates (within the limits of law).

There is no inherent right to force your religion on others, period.



Secularism also permits Shi'ia to worship as they see fit and Sunni to worship as they see fit within the same Nation. Are you Sunni? Would you like to be forced to worship as a Shi'ia?

BS

Turkey is a secular nation with a large Muslim majority, in the upper 90% range if memory serves.

Please example the shortcomings of Turkey for us, how are they "not true Muslims".

Do you know how secularism was imposed on the Turkish people?
Do you know that the army protects the secular system there?
Do you know that you can't form an Islamic political party in Turkey?

 

[McBell]

Prop 8 for example.

Thank you for yet another prime example that shows your idea of freedom from religion is just plain flat out wrong.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

There is indeed a Freedom FROM Religion in this Nation.

I agree. A few of our founding fathers seem to have a distaste for organized religion. It can not be say that freedom of religion has been 100% in our culture. It was against the Law for native Americans to practice there faith up till the 1970's. And there was government sponsored forced conversions of Indian Children up to the early 1960's.

 

[CoolSunshine]

As such, if someone is opposed to secularism, they are free to be so.

I feel no one should be forced to be secular.
But don't you think secularism and democracy are very important for a free and a modern society?How can any religion promise such neutrality which secularism does?

 

[Sahar]

Then make your arguement. What great modern Islam Country has been produced by the rejection of secularism.

On the other hand, why don't you look at the tyrant secular regimes that rule Muslims?
You can start by looking at my country, Egypt.

 

[Riverwolf]

I think no one should be forced to be secular.
But Don't you think secularism and democracy are very important for a free and a modern society?How can any religion promise such a neutrality?

How can anybody promise such neutrality? America is hardly a model for ideal secularism, after all.

Secularism works for us, but other cultures may not be ready for it. Just as we came to it on our own, they will too, eventually.

And by the way, I'm also a proponent of separation of church and state, and am fully aware that this stance is supported in the gospels: "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's." ^_^

 

[Sahar]

The Islamic Political Party of America

Mestemia, is this a real link?