Freedom of religion -Isn't this a basic human right?

[AxisMundi]

November 1963 about noon-noon-thirty in Dallas Texas on Elm street, I believe.

I was in school.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

What you and many other people overlook, Cool--including some Muslims, is that in the Qur'an 2:256, Islam states: "Let there be no compulsion in religion!"

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Riverwolf]

Trying marrying another guy, and see how quickly you "aren't being made to live by Christian principles".

I'm not homosexual. While I do agree that the law is immoral, and I did vote "no" on it, it does not actually directly affect me. Therefore, you cannot say with any accuracy that the law affects every single citizen of California.

 

[CoolSunshine]

Greetings!

What you and many other people overlook, Cool--including some Muslims, is that in the Qur'an 2:256, Islam states: "Let there be no compulsion in religion!"

Peace,

Bruce

You are wrong.Islam is against secularism.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/95152-secularism-vs-islam.html

 

[McBell]

I was in school.

I wasn't even an itch in me daddy's shorts

 

[footprints]

I believe the freedom of religion is a basic right of every human being.Secularism is the political doctrine that enables every one to practice their own religion or lack of it.

But some religions like to enforce their belief on others by oppressing secularism .Islam is one of the religions ( as some Muslims here say ) that tells Islamic rule is better than secular rule.

I find this biased and lop-sided.Should personal beliefs Islam ,Christianity etc be associated with the political law?

On the side note,how should the people of the East deal with Islam.There are significant minorities of Muslims in eastern countries.Islam does not match with the eastern religions like Buddhism,Shinto,Chinese folk Hindu etc nor does it match with atheism.Should they see Islam as how some Muslims may see sorcery?

Notelease don't associate secularism with the west.Secularism is universal principle.I am not against religions being called "State religion" as long as they follow secular rule.

Freedom of religion, Isn't this a basic human right?....... It most certainly is, irrespective of whether that belief is Theistic, Atheistic, Gnostic, Agnostic or Cultural et al.

One of the big problems with human rights, is sometimes, the human rights of one group, impact on the human rights of another group. Respect one person or one group of people, and you will immediately disrespect another person, or another group of people, in any justified world. And, make no mistakes, we do live in a justified world, as the OP, testifies.

I am not a supporter of human rights, for this very reason. Above all else, humans have intelligence, and, by golly, they will use their intelligence, in whatever way they see fit. Which in the end, gives us the world we have today, with all the Good, the Bad, and the downright Ugly, in it.

 

[AxisMundi]

I'm not homosexual. While I do agree that the law is immoral, and I did vote "no" on it, it does not actually directly affect me. Therefore, you cannot say with any accuracy that the law affects every single citizen of California.

That's like saying the Patriot Act didn't effect you because you aren't a criminal.

Prop 8 created a law that all California citizens must abide by, gay or staight. As it is a State Law, all State citizens are indeed effected.

 

[AxisMundi]

Greetings!

What you and many other people overlook, Cool--including some Muslims, is that in the Qur'an 2:256, Islam states: "Let there be no compulsion in religion!"

Peace,

Bruce

And yet people are killed for leaving the religion and/or for not living the religion.

Go figure.

 

[footprints]

And yet people are killed for leaving the religion and/or for not living the religion.

Go figure.

No need to go figure at all. What you and BruceDLimber see is your own reflection. Your own peceptual view, of what a phrase means. You see the term, no compulsion, and you immediately put your own interpretation to it, and give some poor associative connections, to give your personal interpretation some weight of meaning.

There should be no compulsion in religion, it should be done willingly and without question, which is what willingly means.

 

[Moonstone]

The Un has just passed a bill that would make comment on Islam "against the rules".

UN anti-blasphemy measures have sinister goals, observers say

This ruling is totally against the principle of free speech.

This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I think everyone has the right to critisize whatever they like including any religion. If people are soo damn sure their religon is the "true path" it shouldn't bother them when people critisize it. Where is freedom of speech going?

 

[Riverwolf]

That's like saying the Patriot Act didn't effect you because you aren't a criminal.

Prop 8 created a law that all California citizens must abide by, gay or staight. As it is a State Law, all State citizens are indeed effected.

Then how am I, an heterosexual, affected by prop 8?

And by the way, the Patriot Act is very different from prop 8; the latter is directed at a single group of people, while the former is for all people.

Saying I'm affected by prop 8 is like saying I can't take my shirt off in public. (I'm male, and at least that latter makes sense.)

 

[BruceDLimber]

You are wrong.Islam is against secularism.

Which in no way refutes my statement!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

What you and many other people overlook, Cool--including some Muslims, is that in the Qur'an 2:256, Islam states: "Let there be no compulsion in religion!"

quote=AxisMundi;1938162]And yet people are killed for leaving the religion and/or for not living the religion.[/quote]

Which merely demonstrates that far too many people--of ALL religions, please note!--violate their own religious teachings!

My point holds.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Yes, Islam is not neutral, Islam is biased to its ideas, values and systems naturally.

Exactly, as are most religions. Most people find after experience, that keeping the biased religious things OUT of non-religious things promotes peace and makes it easier for large groups of various people to work together and focus on the bottom line/goal, without constantly fighting over religious things.

Bear in mind that we are discussing the Islamic political system (not about following certain religious beliefs).

We were talking about freedom of religion being a basic human right, and the islamic political system impeding on that right, even if with good intentions.

The Islamic political system says; "I do care what you want, I can't drive my legitimacy except from your will".

That says to me, I am the only way and I have the only truth and all that stops you from seeing this is your will. That is okay to believe. It is wrong when you have religious police and others enforcing it.

Disagree with what? And persons' choice of what?

Under an Islamic government, freedom of belief must be respected and guaranteed, how is that?
See know you confused personal beliefs and the political system. Islam doesn't accept following it under ANY kind of pressure not to mention under the reason of survival.

Really? Well I'll tell you what. My demon worshipping spell-casting behind will just pack up and head on over there. I will make sure to be your neighbor and best friend. You need a cup of sugar? I'll be there, so that you can defend me when they come for my head out of fear. We can die together.

I would love to believe what you say, and that may be true where you are, but overall in other areas and such, actions speak louder than words.

Saint Tigeress, the above is based on what? Did you study the contemporary understanding of the Islamic state by Muslim thinkers and scholars and your conclusions are based on this or this is completely uninformed conclusion? Because I gotta tell you you are confusing many things.

No, I did not study that. I will admit I could be wrong. I have studied Islam academically briefly in college, and I respect it in that manner. What I said was purely emotional, pretty much everything I said was, and I probably need to simmer down a little bit. See, I have been studying what you would call "sorcery" for a few years now, and when I saw the thread about that poor shmuck getting sentenced to death by his own for something I'm sure he wasn't actually doing, I about flipped because you know what went through my head, and I'm sure many others?

Holy ****, by me stepping foot over there it would mean I would possibly be imprisoned or killed for no better reason than intolerance, misinformation, and superstition.

That is a crazy kind of feeling, to know that people you have never met and don't even know you exist want to kill you because Allah says so, and to know that the government of a country contains these same people.

Islam can be beautiful. I know this. I don't think you would kill me out of fear, not4me, but some of your brothers and sisters in Islam would and you must realize this. Religion can be dangerous because the minds of humans can be dangerous, then when you put people in power who wield religion, you have a potential disaster waiting to happen. It is not Islam's fault (although I think Islam leaves itself open the most to be abused by the negativity in the mind). It is the fault of the people. You give the government something so easily twisted and translated, that they can use it to fulfill their malicious desires and justify it with the religion of the people.

My main problem with the notion of a particular religion being "top dog" rather than living in a secular system is simple. How can I be sure that I won't be persecuted for my religion? It's all well and good saying that Islam (or any other religion for that matter) should not be forced on somebody even in an Islamic country, but I still seriously doubt that my own beliefs and practices would be tolerated.
Furthermore, having a particular religion as the main driving force in a country is a little insulting even if they don't interfere with the religions of others. For those who would disagree with that point, think of it this way... Would you be happy living in a country governed by daemonolaters (daemon worshippers) even if they were happy to leave you to your practices? One man's meat is another's poison as they say.

Yes, how would you feel if the situation were flipped, and the government was a bunch of occultists who worked with demons? And let us say that they do not encroach on your rights to be muslim, even in public. How would you feel?

That is how every other religious group feels when one religious group is in power. A secular government makes everyone happy and at ease. You still have the right to fight for your ideals to be implemented in government, that is the beauty, but whether or not it happening is up to the people, like with Prop 8. Some people disagree with gay marriage for non-religious reasons... although most do for religious reasons, but more than one religious type. I voted no, but it happened, and gays will continue fighting. They won't be thrown in jail and eventually a compromise will be met because no one group is prevented from fighting for what they think should be. That is the beauty.

Please be so kind as to point out the part of the US Constitution that states that a Nativity scene is not allowed to be displayed because some self righteous Atheist or Muslim does not want to see it.

I've always kinda had a problem with this. I can't believe people get butt-hurt so easy, and then actually get sympathy. It's like, turn your head and move on... sheesh.

BS

Do you know how secularism was imposed on the Turkish people?
Do you know that the army protects the secular system there?
Do you know that you can't form an Islamic political party in Turkey?

I'm sorry that the people there fear religion so much that they took secular government to the extreme. I guess people really can take anything to the extreme. It will get better I hope. The secular system in the US is nothing like that. That is probably why it is hard to see where we are coming from, with Turkey being the closest secular example to you.

I feel no one should be forced to be secular.
But don't you think secularism and democracy are very important for a free and a modern society?How can any religion promise such neutrality which secularism does?

It can't. Secular is bad when you are scared to speak of anything religious in public though.

On the other hand, why don't you look at the tyrant secular regimes that rule Muslims?
You can start by looking at my country, Egypt.

That is the people being bound by their extreme tendencies. Fear is a mind killer. Maybe you should pack up and move here. lol. It's not like that at all.

This was true in the past. Today there are some Hindu fundamentalists who want to drive all of Islam out of India.

O_O WHAT?! Hindu fundamentalists??!! I have seriously lost all faith in the human creature. I think I'm going to move atop a mountian and just never talk to a human again.

And yet people are killed for leaving the religion and/or for not living the religion.

Go figure.

Yeah, actions speak louder than words, as I said. I for one, will be staying in the US where my neck is safe.

There should be no compulsion in religion, it should be done willingly and without question, which is what willingly means.

Some people would see surrender as being the "willingly" they are looking for.

 

[Riverwolf]

O_O WHAT?! Hindu fundamentalists??!! I have seriously lost all faith in the human creature. I think I'm going to move atop a mountian and just never talk to a human again.

Even Buddhism has had its share of fundies.

Thing is, it's really just the difference between religious fundamentalists and fanboys/fangirls. While religious fundamentalists are typically irrational and overly sensitive about their beliefs, and condemning of anyone with a different opinion, fanboys and fangirls are...

...

there is no difference between the two.

 

[arimoff]

On the other hand, why don't you look at the tyrant secular regimes that rule Muslims?
You can start by looking at my country, Egypt.

We can start by looking at your picture at the bottom, you shouldn't even be in a thread called freedom of religion because that picture shows the real you the opposite of this thread.

 

[berrychrisc]

I believe the freedom of religion is a basic right of every human being.Secularism is the political doctrine that enables every one to practice their own religion or lack of it.

Should personal beliefs Islam ,Christianity etc be associated with the political law?

Everyone should be able to practice their religion without fear of persecution. But, I don't think that we should expect political leaders to divorce their decisions from their religious beliefs. As voters we should be aware of what those beliefs are and cast our votes with the expectation that the people we elect will act according to their religious principles. For example, I don't think we can honestly expect a Pro-life Catholic to vote in favor of a pro-abortion law, even if the majority of their constituents support it.

 

[AxisMundi]

Then how am I, an heterosexual, affected by prop 8?

And by the way, the Patriot Act is very different from prop 8; the latter is directed at a single group of people, while the former is for all people.

Saying I'm affected by prop 8 is like saying I can't take my shirt off in public. (I'm male, and at least that latter makes sense.)

Do you drink and drive?

Do you own any firearms?

Use medicinal pot?

Homeowner?

Whether it effects you directly or not, you are still subject to the laws within your State.

 

[Riverwolf]

Do you drink and drive?

Don't do either. But that law affects me because I potentially can do both.

Do you own any firearms?

No, but I own a couple of swords. I'm very subject to the sword laws, as well as gun laws, because it's possible for me to own a gun.

Use medicinal pot?

Dude, I recently quit processed sugar and caffeine. But I'm subject to drug laws, because it's possible for me to take them.

Homeowner?

Nope, and not really looking forward to becoming one.

Whether it effects you directly or not, you are still subject to the laws within your State.

It affects me if it's possible for me to break. How can I marry a man if I'm neither homosexual or bisexual? (As a clarification, I'm looking at this from a practical standpoint.)

Besides, you didn't address my comment on the shirt law. I'm not subject to that law; I can take off my shirt in public all I want; women can't. There's a law that I'm not subject to. Same with prop 8.

 

[darkendless]

We should have the right not to be aggrovated by religion selling itself.

If i wanted to become part of religion, i would go to them.

I don't need them comming to my house.