French Burka Ban

[Starsoul]

Are you a western woman?
How did you get this idea?

No, but the women's liberation movement in the west also 'felt' they were being oppressed by wearing full clothes and demanded equality in skin exposure as men : P

There are possibilities between wearing a burka and running around naked, just so you know.

Don't take me wrong, but if a guy who i was replying to, says that muslim people should realize that that they need to get liberated, he means to imply,w.r.t to a clothing topic, that shedding clothes is liberation, no?

And maybe you need to educate yourself about the values of people who are not you.
You are assuming a great deal it seems.

Nopes, I have lived a fair deal in westren countries, my family continues to do so, so no assumptions here, I have seen them, spoken to them, worked with them, been friends with them. And most of their values have nothing to do with how they dress, and that i say according to a muslim women's dress code, not w.r.t to theirs. And hence this statement becomes a generalized one since you don't compare different samples of values/cultures against each other,when they have nothing in common. Banning the veil seems like as if the secular country is Scared' of this trend spreading, and discourages it, so even if it does spread, whats wrong with that?Its just a piece of cloth.

It is NOt east verses west, SO muslim women, if choose to cover themselves( i must add here that a huge majority still doesn't observe the veil, out of choice) it is their religious obligation, and it is what they must do, but ofcorse cannot be forced to do if they dont want to. I hope everyone understands that in christianity, the nuns follow the dress code of Mary, i guess out of respect right? because they endorse it? Why hasn't France banned their headscarf? Muslim Women who go to study in university in france cannot observe the head scarf, it is their FREEDOM which is under attack. And people cannot tell them that wearing a head scarf, or a piece of cloth like a veil, is obstructive to freedom,or whatever sort of liberation.

 

[TashaN]

Look TashaN,

I clearly expressed in this thread
how I would handle the situation,
were it mine to handle.

Very few of us in life
get EXACTLY what we want,
and I made no comment here
regarding what I think is best for anyone.
I only made suggestions
as to how they might trump the Burqa ban
by creating their own one of a kind coverings.

If they are not technically wearing a Burqa,
but are wearing One of a kind fashion statements,
(and believe me, they WOULD be making a statement)
WHAT are they going to get arrested for?

I'm making suggestions on how your women might WIN.

Thanks for the clarification, and by the way, they are not my women, i have my own woman and i got married with her few weeks a go and i don't think she would have tolerated the idea that i have other woman, let alone many women.

 

[waitasec]

"gay marriage"

and you are equating gay marriage to what exactly?

Don't try to replace actual arguments with jargon. Adjusting to a new environment does not mean CONFORMITY.

how about a period of adjustment?
people do have adjust to their new environment don't they?
it's not like the have to walk around in bikinis...get real...just don't cover the face because it is a form of ID....
why do the muslims expect western women to conform to their way of dressing in muslim countries...

 

[Chisti]

and you are equating gay marriage to what exactly?



how about a period of adjustment?
people do have adjust to their new environment don't they?
it's not like the have to walk around in bikinis...get real...just don't cover the face because it is a form of ID....
why do the muslims expect western women to conform to their way of dressing in muslim countries...

Why should anyone adjust to anything? Nothing's lost by not adjusting.

 

[zenzero]

Friend starsoul,

Thanks but muslims don't call baring oneself liberation. Westren women Like being exposed and used around with dozens of men before they settle down with one man or a woman, IF they're lucky enough to settle down. Muslims women do NOT want that kind of a ' respectable lifestyle', where women earn respect by revealing their bodies to all and sundry.

You are very wrong, muslim women do not fantasize to be naked and sexually available to all men of the society, whether its for satiating the eyes of men/women or for selling products from a bottle of coke to just about anything and everything. Our standards and values are different, and you need to educate yourself with muslim values before dictating them about their freedom and liberty.

Kindly speak of yourself as have not indicated individuals who follow certain path, it is their own choice; so kindly speak for your own self.
Next, your mind is imagining various things when it sees females without burkhas and so it makes you speak of nakedness and see most women without burkhas as sleeping with many men; which is incorrect and besides is a personal choice and none should interfere in it.

Friends working in the middle east and travelling back informs that most burkha wearing women who take flights out of the region throw off their burkhas as soon as they are on the plane and are found to be in jeans and other fashionable attire.
It is evident that those who wear burkhas only do so because of social compulsion and not out of choice.
Once again, speak of your own ideas/feelings/reasons/etc and not on behalf of all those who wear burkhas or follow islam.
Love & rgds

 

[RitalinO.D.]

why do the muslims expect western women to conform to their way of dressing in muslim countries...

This is actually a good point, considering in even the most Moderate, somewhat westernized countries that are majority Muslim, like Turkey, they still hold on to very liberal modesty values. While they have no laws that dictate how a woman has to dress, the men in the country will still look down on and castigate a Turkish/Kurdish/or even American women that dresses too provocatively. On a beach, however that is not the case, but walking through say Adana, if a women were to wear a pair of cut off shorts and a bikini top through the souks, she would be stared at (and not in a good way), and possibly publicly criticized or scorned. There have even been reports of Muslim men throwing stones at women, of any nationality, who were thought to be dressed too skimpily, and this is a culture that allows Arab women to dress in western fashions.

I'm not defending either side of this topic with this post, I am merely pointing out the supposed double standard that appears to exist.

 

[Dezzie]

I very much disagree with you.

The law is not always right.

If you think the law is wrong, you should try to change the law, not move out of the country.

lol of course you should. I didn't say you shouldn't try and fight. You would have to get a LOT of people together to fight for your rights though. One person alone may not get anywhere. It's possible of course, but it would be a difficult journey. I do know that the law is not always right... I don't need to be educated in that subject.. I do live in America. I just don't understand who would feel comfortable living in a Country where people hate you for your ethnicity. At times that can even be dangerous. I don't agree with it, trust me. People treat others horribly and it's pathetic in my opinion.

 

[Chisti]

lol of course you should. I didn't say you shouldn't try and fight. You would have to get a LOT of people together to fight for your rights though. One person alone may not get anywhere. It's possible of course, but it would be a difficult journey. I do know that the law is not always right... I don't need to be educated in that subject.. I do live in America. I just don't understand who would feel comfortable living in a Country where people hate you for your ethnicity. At times that can even be dangerous. I don't agree with it, trust me. People treat others horribly and it's pathetic in my opinion.

Luckily, MLK didn't have that attitude and move to another country as a result.

 

[Dezzie]

Thanks but muslims don't call baring oneself liberation. Westren women Like being exposed and used around with dozens of men before they settle down with one man or a woman, IF they're lucky enough to settle down.

Are you saying all Western women like being exposed and used around? I'm a bit confused. :areyoucra

...where women earn respect by revealing their bodies to all and sundry.

Um... just an FYI... I have been shown great respect. People don't see me revealing myself to anyone other than my husband. I don't wear revealing clothing either. t-shirt and jeans, baby... that's all I've got. Not all Western women agree with what is shown in the magazines. I know I don't. Women should never be viewed in that manner. They should be respected for their mind, not their bodies. I for one, stick up for myself.

Here's an example... Outside my apartment complex, a group of 4-5 guys decided to be sick and make dirty comments about me as I was walking by them. They looked like a "gang" but I didn't care. I told them off. I told them to start giving women a little effing respect. I think I gained that respect. I haven't seen them since (I think they live across from me too). The media puts a false image on how women can gain that respect. You don't have to parade around, shaking your behind and revealing yourself. I really hope you don't think all Western women go down that route.

 

[waitasec]

Why should anyone adjust to anything? Nothing's lost by not adjusting.

it's a down right display of defiance against western culture, through fake humility.
if the westerners adjust abroad, then the easterners are to do the same...
a simple act of courtesy.... facial ID is the norm... besides it's the law and if you don't like it, good luck changing it...i didn't make this my problem...

 

[Badran]

it's a down right display of defiance against western culture, through fake humility.
if the westerners adjust abroad, then the easterners are to do the same...
a simple act of courtesy.... facial ID is in the norm... besides it's the law and if you don't like it, good luck changing it...i didn't make this my problem...

Lets try something else, since you clearly are evading and ignoring the arguments that already addressed your points.

Do you agree with Saudi Arabia in enforcing their own "norms"? After all it is the law there, and you're not going to display defiance against their culture, are you?

Btw the "fake humility" part was just pitiful.

 

[waitasec]

Lets try something else, since you clearly are evading and ignoring the arguments that already addressed your points.

Do you agree with Saudi Arabia in enforcing their own "norms"? After all it is the law there, and you're not going to display defiance against their culture, are you?

i do not see anything wrong with a country enforcing their laws so long as they do not infringe on something a person may claim as properly due to them...respect of individuality and equality.

Btw the "fake humility" part was just pitiful.

it is a blatant act of defiance and rebellion against western culture...
the face is the ID of a person...
it' is very telling how your understanding of humanity depends on how much a group can control another....
another indication of insecurity

 

[Badran]

i do not see anything wrong with a country enforcing their laws so long as they do not infringe on something a person may claim as properly due to them...respect of individuality and equality.

Sorry, i didn't understand your condition of acceptance. Simply, will see them forcing you to wear more clothes as right or wrong?

it is a blatant act of defiance and rebellion against western culture...

Do you realize what you sound like?

the face is the ID of a person...

Only part of it.

it' is very telling how your understanding of humanity depends on how much a group can control another....
another indication of insecurity

Actually and in all honesty whats telling is your double standards, and your contempt for religion that are handicapping you from looking at this situation from its proper prospective.

 

[waitasec]

Sorry, i didn't understand your condition of acceptance. Simply, will see them forcing you to wear more clothes, as right or wrong?

you make it seem as though i walk around in a bikini...get real.
if it is customary for EVERYONE to cover their hair, sure i'll do it,

Do you realize what you sound like?

enlighten me...

Only part of it.

that is the issue...

Actually and in all honesty whats telling is your double standards, and your bigotry against religion that are handicapping you from looking at this situation from its proper prospective.

please explain my double standard...as far as i can tell i've been saying
everyone is equal
btw,
i equate religion as the bark of a little dog...not very impressive.

 

[Vendetta]

I think the problem I have with the Muslim argument of conservative dress is that in comparison to western culture, it is "more moral." When in fact the only thing that many use in defense to such a statement is media. But the paradox here is Muslims do not like society judging them for what people see on television yet, use the media to judge women and western dress.

I am not against Islamic clothing so long as upon identification the face is revealed. Modesty has nothing to do with the face or hair but if you cover the entire body then its a problem for police or any agency to identify you.

And please I don't want to hear about the whole modesty argument.......Some muslim women are some of the biggest "sexual freaks" I've seen it with my own eyes. I find it more of a sexual repression than anything.

 

[waitasec]

I think the problem I have with the Muslim argument of conservative dress is that in comparison to western culture, it is "more moral." When in fact the only thing that many use in defense to such a statement is media. But the paradox here is Muslims do not like society judging them for what people see on the need yet, use the media to judge women and western dress.

frubals...

 

[Badran]

if it is customary for EVERYONE to cover their hair, sure i'll do it,

Do you mean by everyone male and female?

enlighten me...

You just happened to use the exact same terms some people use when describing the "audacity" of homosexuals to ask for the right to have same sex marriage.

that is the issue...

Not following. We already said in the instances where facial identification is needed, it should be enforced by the law that the woman shows her face.

please explain my double standard...as far as i can tell i've been saying
everyone is equal

Your double standard is in using arguments that you don't accept in other similar instances.

btw, i equate religion as the bark of a little dog...not very impressive.

I know.

 

[waitasec]

Do you mean by everyone male and female?

yes equality...

You just happened to use the exact same terms some people use when describing the "audacity" of homosexuals to ask for the right to have same sex marriage.

i don't follow... what terms?
homosexuals do have the right to get married...
it's called equality for all...no double standards here.

Your double standard is in using arguments that you don't accept in other similar instances.

please give me an example of an argument of mine..
i've been saying equality all along...how is that a double standard?

 

[Badran]

yes equality...

i don't follow... what terms?
homosexuals do have the right to get married...
it's called equality for all...no double standards here.

please give me an example of an argument of mine..
i've been saying equality all along...how is that a double standard?

Lets take it from the start, you argued that because in the western culture this is not acceptable, the women should comply. And if they don't they would be defiant and rebellious. Just the fact that those westerners don't act that way themselves, and view her dress as weird, she should do as they do and not expect to have enough freedom to express herself in her own way which also happens to be according to her religion. She is only allowed to do it in the privacy of her home, which in that case is useless because the only place those women actually take off that dress, is at home.

Now, there are other people, gays for example, who want a right for same sex marriage. Lets say some culture also views having sex with your same sex as weird, so they refuse to give them that right. No same sex marriage for them, as that opposes that country's culture, and they just think its weird. So gays won't have the right for that, just because those people don't like it, but gays are allowed to do it in private. If gays choose to not follow this, they would be also defiant and rebellious.

Can you see any similarities?

 

[Vendetta]

Badran in addition to addressing Waitasec's comment can you address mine? If you missed my question here it is:

If Islamic garb is considered modest and a reflection of Islamic morals, why is western clothing seen a amoral, indecent from what Muslims perceive looking at the media yet in the same breathe, if I judge islam from what I see in the media its wrong?

For one, all western women don't dress trashy but I find it a convenient argument muslimsuse to justify their generalizations by looking at tv but if I do the same its not true?